Yamaku Book Club (20220124 Dish Washing)

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Mirage_GSM
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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Continuing 11 June 2015)

Post by Mirage_GSM »

Leaty wrote:I don't understand—like I am seriously vexed—that people are acting like the laziness of the writer was some kind of stylistic decision.
Because I'm fairly certain that in this case it WAS a stylistic decision - and imo a very appropriate one.
Gajzla pretty much nailed my reasoning for that:
The characters are as they appear in the VN, nameless and faceless. They don’t need to be flushed out, because then they stop being background characters. Which is what the story is about.
Beyond that we don't have much else from that author, but he wrote one other story which - while it might not reach the eloquence of your stories - is still leagues above this one in terms of mentioning feelings.
Leaty wrote:What you consider idealistic, I consider inappropriate. Personally I won't be convinced (I know, everybody weep) that any teachers, even in the most idealistic of settings, should appropriately have such an perverse interest in the intricacies of their students' lives.
Actually the author answers this himself before he even starts the story:
Lost in the Fire wrote:I got the idea for this oneshot when I returned to my high school with some friends a few weeks ago and caught up with a few of my favorite teachers. We somehow ended up on the subject of shipping, and I learned that it actually is something that the teachers would do all the time.
Emi > Misha > Hanako > Lilly > Rin > Shizune

My collected KS-Fan Fictions: Mirage's Myths
griffon8 wrote:Kosher, just because sex is your answer to everything doesn't mean that sex is the answer to everything.
Sore wa himitsu desu.
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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Continuing 11 June 2015)

Post by Leaty »

Gajzla wrote:Why assume our author - that you have said yourself is an amateur, like most fanfic writers - is lazy? Just strikes me as a little insulting to be honest. Perhaps I’m misunderstanding your meaning.
You, like, understand that laziness and inexperience aren't mutually exclusive, right? Nor does inexperience intrinsically imply laziness.

And in the case of this story, I can acknowledge that the story was written by somebody who needed to work on their fundamentals while also asserting that it reads like it was rushed to be finished in a very short time so that it could be posted (and thereby invite commentary more quickly.) It's not like this a problem foreign to fandoms, nor is it something I fail to empathize with as a fellow writer. If you think my saying so is insulting, well, sorry.
Gajzla wrote:The characters are as they appear in the VN, nameless and faceless. They don’t need to be flushed out, because then they stop being background characters.
I seriously don't believe you're arguing that in good faith.

Like, do you seriously think that this:

Image

Would be better if it was this?

Image

Like, that is seriously what you're arguing. Sorry, but I think people are just bending over backwards to apologize for this story. Background characters don't have to be deep, but they certainly need to be unique. And in this story they're boring and identical.
Mirage_GSM wrote:I got the idea for this oneshot when I returned to my high school with some friends a few weeks ago and caught up with a few of my favorite teachers. We somehow ended up on the subject of shipping, and I learned that it actually is something that the teachers would do all the time.
I've already acknowledged that it happens. I'm just also asserting that it shouldn't, and that the subject matter in particular (their students' love lives) isn't appropriate, and that the level of surveillance depicted in this story is especially perverse, and that the nurses don't actually sound like nurses anyway.
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dewelar
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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Continuing 11 June 2015)

Post by dewelar »

Leaty wrote:
Lost In The Fire wrote:I got the idea for this oneshot when I returned to my high school with some friends a few weeks ago and caught up with a few of my favorite teachers. We somehow ended up on the subject of shipping, and I learned that it actually is something that the teachers would do all the time.
I've already acknowledged that it happens. I'm just also asserting that it shouldn't, and that the subject matter in particular (their students' love lives) isn't appropriate, and that the level of surveillance depicted in this story is especially perverse, and that the nurses don't actually sound like nurses anyway.
Okay, but at this point, it feels like you're arguing more against the flaws of the human race rather than the flaws of the story. Not that you're not justified, but I'm not sure that's what this thread's for.
Rin is orthogonal to everything.
Stuff I've written: Developments, a continuation of Lilly's (bad? neutral?) ending - COMPLETE!
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Gajzla
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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Continuing 11 June 2015)

Post by Gajzla »

Leaty wrote: You, like, understand that laziness and inexperience aren't mutually exclusive, right? Nor does inexperience intrinsically imply laziness.

And in the case of this story, I can acknowledge that the story was written by somebody who needed to work on their fundamentals while also asserting that it reads like it was rushed to be finished in a very short time so that it could be posted (and thereby invite commentary more quickly.) It's not like this a problem foreign to fandoms, nor is it something I fail to empathize with as a fellow writer. If you think my saying so is insulting, well, sorry.
I think you assume to much, but your opinoins are your own and I can respect that.
Leaty wrote:
Gajzla wrote:The characters are as they appear in the VN, nameless and faceless. They don’t need to be flushed out, because then they stop being background characters.
I seriously don't believe you're arguing that in good faith.

Like, do you seriously think that this:

1st pic.

Would be better if it was this?

2ed pic

Like, that is seriously what you're arguing. Sorry, but I think people are just bending over backwards to apologize for this story. Background characters don't have to be deep, but they certainly need to be unique. And in this story they're boring and identical.
That is a simply ridiculous argument. If this was written it would simply state that their was a crowd of people watching. How the reader choses to imagine them is up to them, thats what a background character is. Are you telling me that this cartoon would be better if it deviated away from the main characters so every extra could be given there own complex story line? Or in a book we stopped our fight scene to give a description to characters we will never see again?

I will repeat, you can’t be both a main and a background character at the same time. If you want to write about background characters - which not many people want to do, admittedly. Then you have to keep them vague, because that’s what they are.
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Mirage_GSM
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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Continuing 11 June 2015)

Post by Mirage_GSM »

Sorry, but I think people are just bending over backwards to apologize for this story.
You should know me well enough by now to know that I don't bend over backwards to apologize any story. I might stay silent if I can't find anything nice or even constructive about it, but if I defend it, it is because it is my honest opinion.
and that the level of surveillance depicted in this story is especially perverse,
Not sure what you are talking about, really. Noone is putting anyone under surveillance in this story. They are at a boarding school, and they are gosipping about things they saw while they were going about their own business. It's not like they spied on Hisao or followed him around.
Emi > Misha > Hanako > Lilly > Rin > Shizune

My collected KS-Fan Fictions: Mirage's Myths
griffon8 wrote:Kosher, just because sex is your answer to everything doesn't mean that sex is the answer to everything.
Sore wa himitsu desu.
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Blank Mage
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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Continuing 11 June 2015)

Post by Blank Mage »

Image
And we're back.
-----------
"I wish I could convey to you just how socially inept I am, but I can't."
"I think you just did."
"No, I really, truly haven't."
Leaty
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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Continuing 11 June 2015)

Post by Leaty »

dewelar wrote:Okay, but at this point, it feels like you're arguing more against the flaws of the human race rather than the flaws of the story. Not that you're not justified, but I'm not sure that's what this thread's for.
No, I'm arguing that something as skeezy as that shouldn't be presented in the light the story is written in, nor should it lead to some glurgy conclusion like "these disabled students are getting lots of silent support from the rafters!" My criticism boils down to: This story should not have been written around this concept in this light.

I feel just as adamantly about JKR's lionization of Dumbledore in the text and subtext when he spends seven books doing all manner of unbelievably fucked-up things.
Gajzla wrote:That is a simply ridiculous argument. If this was written it would simply state that their was a crowd of people watching.
I chose a Daria screencap for a reason. That show put a great deal of effort into making its background characters appear distinguished and unique. Several of them (like "Karen," the blonde girl in that image,) became popular with the Daria fandom without ever having a single line. Because their uniqueness complemented the main storyline and made the show more enjoyable to watch.

If you as a writer choose only to define your core cast of characters and leave the rest of them as a bunch of robotic, identical Joey Tribbianis, well, I'm going to call your work extremely boring. "Mass-producing" an element in your writing because you don't want to bother with it is the height of laziness.
Gajzla wrote:How the reader choses to imagine them is up to them, thats what a background character is.
No, it is not. That is not how a "background character" is defined. This isn't even an argument now. You're just incorrect.
Gajzla wrote:Are you telling me that this cartoon would be better if it deviated away from the main characters so every extra could be given there own complex story line? Or in a book we stopped our fight scene to give a description to characters we will never see again?
Um, yes, if the entire point of your story is that you're putting background characters in the limelight, you don't get the luxury anymore of making all your characters a bunch of clones. That is poor, sloppy writing.
Gajzla wrote:I will repeat, you can’t be both a main and a background character at the same time.
I agree, which is why there are no background characters in Observations, because they are specifically relevant to the plot of the story. And therefore needed to be treated as such.
Gajzla wrote:If you want to write about background characters - which not many people want to do, admittedly. Then you have to keep them vague, because that’s what they are.
I agree, Developments would have been a better story if Dewelar had depicted Noriko and Yoshi as blurry, nondescript, mild-mannered silhouettes.
Mirage_GSM wrote:Noone is putting anyone under surveillance in this story.
Not in the literal sense of the word surveillance. The extent to which the students are being observed in Observations is absurdly, uncomfortably intricate and involved. As presented in the story, Hisao and the girls practically are being surveilled.
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dewelar
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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Continuing 11 June 2015)

Post by dewelar »

Leaty wrote:
dewelar wrote:Okay, but at this point, it feels like you're arguing more against the flaws of the human race rather than the flaws of the story. Not that you're not justified, but I'm not sure that's what this thread's for.
No, I'm arguing that something as skeezy as that shouldn't be presented in the light the story is written in, nor should it lead to some glurgy conclusion like "these disabled students are getting lots of silent support from the rafters!" My criticism boils down to: This story should not have been written around this concept in this light.
Okay, I'll buy that, especially in light of what I said to you a while back in regards to the portrayal of Kimura in Azumanga Daioh (and thanks again for hooking me on that -- that thing is like catnip for me: fluff with a heavy sprinkling of goofy weirdness). When I first read this story, I didn't think too deeply about it. Now...thinking deeply kinda ruins it for me :(.
Rin is orthogonal to everything.
Stuff I've written: Developments, a continuation of Lilly's (bad? neutral?) ending - COMPLETE!
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Mirage_GSM
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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Continuing 11 June 2015)

Post by Mirage_GSM »

I chose a Daria screencap for a reason. That show put a great deal of effort into making its background characters appear distinguished and unique. Several of them (like "Karen," the blonde girl in that image,) became popular with the Daria fandom without ever having a single line. Because their uniqueness complemented the main storyline and made the show more enjoyable to watch.

If you as a writer choose only to define your core cast of characters and leave the rest of them as a bunch of robotic, identical Joey Tribbianis, well, I'm going to call your work extremely boring. "Mass-producing" an element in your writing because you don't want to bother with it is the height of laziness.
No one is arguing with you there. I don't know the show you're referencing, but it's obvious that generally stories gain quality if the flesh out their background characters.
In this case we have a story about how backgound characters are usually seen. You can call it an experiment or maybe a parody. You don't even have to like it, but I think accusing the author of laziness, because he tried something new is unfair.
For example I hate South Park with a passion - the violence, the crude humour, the dick jokes - but I don't doubt for one second that they could produce better drawings if they wanted to, and I'd never attribute it to their laziness.
Emi > Misha > Hanako > Lilly > Rin > Shizune

My collected KS-Fan Fictions: Mirage's Myths
griffon8 wrote:Kosher, just because sex is your answer to everything doesn't mean that sex is the answer to everything.
Sore wa himitsu desu.
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Gajzla
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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Continuing 11 June 2015)

Post by Gajzla »

Leaty wrote:
Gajzla wrote:How the reader choses to imagine them is up to them, thats what a background character is.
No, it is not. That is not how a "background character" is defined. This isn't even an argument now. You're just incorrect.
My definition of a background character is like the crowd in those pictures. Window dressing, like the pedestrians in GTA there to make the world feel alive but serve no other purpose. If these characters get a name and a face, they stop being background characters. So to have a story about background characters you need them to be be so.
Leaty wrote: If you as a writer choose only to define your core cast of characters and leave the rest of them as a bunch of robotic, identical Joey Tribbianis, well, I'm going to call your work extremely boring. "Mass-producing" an element in your writing because you don't want to bother with it is the height of laziness.
I would put a book down if it listed every faceless nobody in a crowd, but thats just me.
Mirage_GSM wrote:In this case we have a story about how backgound characters are usually seen. You can call it an experiment or maybe a parody. You don't even have to like it, but I think accusing the author of laziness, because he tried something new is unfair.
This.
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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Continuing 11 June 2015)

Post by Leaty »

Mirage_GSM wrote:In this case we have a story about how backgound characters are usually seen. You can call it an experiment or maybe a parody. You don't even have to like it, but I think accusing the author of laziness, because he tried something new is unfair.
Sorry, but I'm finding it very hard to believe that unbelievably convoluted explanation over my own instincts as both a reader and a writer that this was thoughtlessly rushed to completion. I'm not giving him credit for innovation because I do not think this story is innovative.
Gajzla wrote:I would put a book down if it listed every faceless nobody in a crowd, but thats just me.
Right, because my arguments and my writing exactly reflect that that's what I'm advocating for.
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Gajzla
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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Continuing 11 June 2015)

Post by Gajzla »

Leaty wrote:
Gajzla wrote:I would put a book down if it listed every faceless nobody in a crowd, but thats just me.
Right, because my arguments and my writing exactly reflect that that's what I'm advocating for.
Then we are in agreement, I would never advocate for anyone a character actually talks to to be a faceless blur. To the people in the crowd, the world fillers? Sure, knowing those people exist is enough. And that is exactly from who’s point of view the story is written. It’s a strange idea from the author, but I don’t believe it constitutes laziness.
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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Continuing 11 June 2015)

Post by Leaty »

Okay, I'm tapping out. There's no way we're going to settle on this. There's plenty more fics begging for me to complain about them.
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Fardels
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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Continuing 11 June 2015)

Post by Fardels »

Erm.... well, I liked it.

I liked it despite obvious flaws. I did not think it was especially innovative, but then I did not require it to be. The rather detached viewpoint may have been intentional, or may have been the result of a rush to publish. Don't know; don't care - it worked for me. It was in line with my knowledge of teachers/staff, though that does not extend to special education sorts. At one point, I rubbed elbows with secondary ed practitioners (and other things too - I was dating one of them). Since schools are supposed to act in loco parentis, and especially boarding schools, I think the students might be... overseen to a greater extent than they would prefer. And teachers/staff off-duty being a lively bunch, I can see them putting what amounts to seven euros or eight dollars on an outcome. I think it's even more likely that nurses (many of whom share off-duty characteristics with teachers) would do the same.

The ensuing discussion brought out many good points, to the extent that I briefly wondered if my impression while reading was wrong-headed. Again - don't know, don't care. Blank Mage voiced many ideas that more or less fit into my own approach. If the author's aim was to present something profound and comprehensive, the story failed that for me. If the author's aim was to present an amiable point of view on a KS arc, the story succeeded.
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Re: Yamaku Book Club (Meeting Continuing 11 June 2015)

Post by dewelar »

Okay, so, A Walk in the Park.

This is an odd one for me. I don't remember if I've read this part of After the Dream before, so I'm coming in fresh. It's well-written, as all of brythain's work is, but there are several things about it that are just slightly off. This is partially because it feels unfinished, and not just because of the Neverending Story-esque tag. The conversation simply ends, mid-thought -- like, there's more there, but the author chose to end the scene without showing it.

Another issue here is that the piece seems to betray its own premise, or at least the motivations of the characters. Emi thinks (or claims to think) Hisao should go with Rin because he needs to be "healthier". Taking that at face value, perhaps she just wanted him to climb the hill, but this is brythain, so taking anything at face value is unlikely to be the correct choice. Thus, we look at the outcome of the journey, which is two-fold: expressing some odd, unearned trust that Rin is somehow placing in Hisao, and the reinforcement of Hisao's own negative mental state through the finding of the grave. The conclusion is that, in exchange for a small benefit to his physical health, Hisao's mental health has likely just taken a nosedive.

Now, to address Rin's part in this. As I mentioned, Rin's questioning of Hisao is odd in that she's essentially asking him something similar to what Emi asks him at the end of her route: "Hisao, will you put me back together if I lose me?" isn't something you ask someone with whom you have a casual relationship. Yes, this is Rin, but even at that level, where does the question come from? Why is she asking this of Hisao, whom she barely knows? Even if we, as readers, kind of might know the answer, Hisao doesn't, and it should disturb him a lot more than it does. Mind you, if he were treating it as typical Rin-ness, that would be different, but he takes the question seriously and answers it seriously. It's a pretty major incongruity. Yes, I know it's foreshadowing, but it still feels misplaced.

Also, as with much of brythain's work with Rin, I get the distinct impression that Rin has feelings for Hisao in this piece. After all, she seems to have wanted to bring Hisao on this walk to ask the specific questions mentioned above. (Which brings up another point: did Emi know this was what Rin wanted to talk about? If so, how did she feel about that?) Even though she's the only one of our canon five that never outwardly displays or inwardly betrays such feelings in the overall mosaic (which, being Rin, she wouldn't), the undercurrent is strong -- stronger, I'd say, than anyone other than Lilly's, at least at times like this. Perhaps Hisao's reaction to the question is meant to imply that he might be picking up on that subconsciously, but that's one leap I'm not willing to make. That's all I'll say about the allusions to the greater work for now, because we're reviewing this as a stand-alone piece.

As a more minor quibble, I understand the repetition of Hisao's thinking about Lilly is there for various reasons, but I don't think it's necessary. In particular, I've never been a big fan of the trope that goes "[x] reminds me of [y], [y] reminds me of [z], [z] reminds me of [EX-GIRLFRIEND!] WAHHHHHHH!" It never really feels organic to me, perhaps because (despite having my share of ex-girlfriends) my own brain never went down that path. Perhaps others really do go down those rabbit holes, so more a personal taste thing.

As for things I do like, I think the part at the beginning where some of the other class 3-3 guys try to lift Hisao's spirits is a nice scene. Lord knows he's not getting that from anyone else in this piece :). Outside of what I mentioned above, the characters in general are well-written, and I especially appreciate Hisao's foray into thinking scientifically. I think that's a particularly under-utilized aspect of his character in fanfiction, so when it appears I do a bit of a mental fist-pump. The gates vs. doors exchange is nice, and shows the Rin/Hisao dynamic at its best. I'm...not as sure about the discussion of the various parts of Rin's anatomy, but it's cute, so I give it a pass.

Anyway, there you go.
Rin is orthogonal to everything.
Stuff I've written: Developments, a continuation of Lilly's (bad? neutral?) ending - COMPLETE!
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