Shizune Arc

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Xanatos
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Re: Shizune Arc

Post by Xanatos »

prometheus wrote:Taking the chance of further presenting myself ignorant and derailing the thread, but i am curious ;):

Do regular sign users feel their gestures while thinking in words/talking in their head, just as voice based speakers may hear their words? How about while reading?

And: Sometimes (or rather more often than i'd like to admit) i talk to myself. It helps organising thoughts and getting some distance from your own point of view. How does that work in sign language or is that something that just very rarely/never happens? Or maybe use writing instead?
You can't feel gestures in your head. That's silly. :P

Some searching via Google reveals that those deaf from birth tend to think in sign while those who become deaf later tend to think in words proper, though a deaf person may be able to train themselves to have limited concept of the actual sounds of the words they're signing (or else have their hearing repaired to any degree) and begin thinking in either or both.
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OtakuNinja
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Re: Shizune Arc

Post by OtakuNinja »

Xanatos wrote:Some searching via Google reveals that those deaf from birth tend to think in sign while those who become deaf later tend to think in words proper, though a deaf person may be able to train themselves to have limited concept of the actual sounds of the words they're signing (or else have their hearing repaired to any degree) and begin thinking in either or both.
This, combined with your new avatar... :)
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Xanatos
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Re: Shizune Arc

Post by Xanatos »

:lol: Jigoro knows this shit.
<KeiichiO>: "I wonder what Misha's WAHAHA's sound like with a cock stuffed down her throat..."
<Ascension>: "I laughed, cried, vomited in my mouth a little, and even had time for marshmallows afterwards. Well played, Xanatos. Well played."
<KeiichiO>: "That's a beautiful response to chocolate."
ProfAllister
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Re: Shizune Arc

Post by ProfAllister »

ArcCain wrote:
Xanatos wrote:
ArcCain wrote:I did not like her arc because it had what I would call filler in it. But it did have some really good high notes too so it is not all bad.
Every route had filler...
Not to that extreme, almost all I can remember is the unimportant stuff. :(

People keep saying stuff like this, and I'm just not seeing it.

"Filler" and "unimportant" imply that you're talking about scenes that don't really bring anything to the table. Looking at the scenes from Shizune's route, nearly every event either contributes to Shizune's characterization or it moves the plot forward (hence the generous application of time skips). Hell, even the scenes with Kenji tend to be relevant to the plot. An argument may be made that the route focuses a bit too much on characterization, dragging on the plot, but that's a far cry from being overloaded with filler.

Something important to note with Shizune's route is that so much of what goes on is (appropriately enough) left unsaid. A lot goes on just with the facial expressions and body language. Interestingly enough, a lot of people pick up on Shizune's body language and facial expressions before Hisao learns sign language, but forget about it once Hisao can understand what Shizune's saying. Shizune makes extensive use of her body language and facial expressions, even though some are rather subtle (two are nearly identical). It's her main form of communication with most of the world, so she says a lot with visual cues. This extends to Misha, too. Her poses are very expressive, but she only has a few, which are used for many different occasions, which actually makes them more ambiguous than they should be. Additionally, Misha has a habit of shifting her expression when no one's paying attention. When you catch them, those shifts can speak volumes.

And no, the facial expressions aren't a trivial matter. For each expression, an artist needed to draw it, an editor needed to give the okay, and the coder needed to script the expression changes. they weren't just casually thrown around willy-nilly. On top of that, anyone with even a basic understanding of sign language is well aware that body language and facial expression play a huge role in the meaning of words. The fact that the facial expressions and body language play such a huge role in the deaf girl's route can hardly be considered coincidence, given the circumstances.

I'll certainly allow that there may be issues with Shizune's route, but I just don't think there's any weight to the argument that it has "filler" or irrelevant scenes.
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OtakuNinja
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Re: Shizune Arc

Post by OtakuNinja »

ProfAllister wrote: body language and facial expression play a huge role in the meaning of words
:P <-- Kinda like how this smilie changes a serious post to a joke. ;)
Last edited by OtakuNinja on Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Xanatos
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Re: Shizune Arc

Post by Xanatos »

ProfAllister wrote:I just don't think there's any weight to the argument that it has "filler" or irrelevant scenes.
Well said.
<KeiichiO>: "I wonder what Misha's WAHAHA's sound like with a cock stuffed down her throat..."
<Ascension>: "I laughed, cried, vomited in my mouth a little, and even had time for marshmallows afterwards. Well played, Xanatos. Well played."
<KeiichiO>: "That's a beautiful response to chocolate."
Loonie
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Re: Shizune Arc

Post by Loonie »

I'd agree with that assessment - it isn't filler at all. But as for myself I found the biggest discrepancy in how those moreso interesting moments in her arc are handled and I'd say that, moreso than anything else, is what caused Shizune's arc to wind up as it did in regards to popularity.

Take every other arc as an example - whatever important moment happens there, the next scenes tend to deal somewhat with that moment. Lilly and Hisao get together - the next few scenes deal with how Hanako takes it and later on also Akira. Rin finally makes a decision to go for the exhibition, the next few scenes in the next arc are about how that goes. Emi seemingly rejects Hisao and the next scene at the track in the morning shows how completely contrary she acts to that.

In Shizune's arc none of these moments are followed up like this, I think. Shizune and Hisao get together at the end of Act 2...and then the next scene barely references it. At the end of Act 3 there are the results from your choice in her arc...but after that scene rolls through it looks like things roll back into the ordinary again. Heck, the entirety of Act 4 plays insanely similarly wether you made that choice for the better or for worse - there is hardly any difference in them. And that lack of change in regards to the pacing tends to frustrate most readers of fiction. Somewhat unfairly, I might add, because it is in a way very appropriate considering Shizune's personality is very much like that as well - seeing individual moments/project through to the end...and then onto the next! And it also tends to be how most people tend to go through their lives as well - you're feeling shitty after something bad happened at work, well let's play some games to work out that stress - no way it could possibly be linked at all heh.

Of course while this makes it a unique fictional story (even if perhaps too reminiscent of average daily life for some) it also makes it feel disjointed - much like most people view real life. It doesn't read like a work of fiction usually would and people, understandably, get thrown off by it. I didn't get thrown off it myself: I just rolled along with it and got a lot of fun out of it. But I can understand how most who read fiction would go into it, see so little reactivity within the story and explain it away with the word 'filler'. A shame really...because it's still a great story - just somewhat unpolished perhaps, or it was intentionally made that way but...ultimately didn't work out as well as the author would have hoped.
Xanatos
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Re: Shizune Arc

Post by Xanatos »

I think it worked. People just didn't like it. :lol:
<KeiichiO>: "I wonder what Misha's WAHAHA's sound like with a cock stuffed down her throat..."
<Ascension>: "I laughed, cried, vomited in my mouth a little, and even had time for marshmallows afterwards. Well played, Xanatos. Well played."
<KeiichiO>: "That's a beautiful response to chocolate."
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Zailen
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Re: Shizune Arc

Post by Zailen »

Speak for yourself! I liked it! =D I don't always read to escape from my life and reality. Sometimes it's good to pick up a good story thats -similar- to how you live, to sort of give you the idea that you -arent- some freak of nature who does things differently than everyone else. It can kind of give you a bit of comfort (Hisao leave your pants on) knowing that, and reading about it. *shrug* Plus, who can honestly say that they DISLIKE a girl like Shizune? Uh-huh. I thought so.
Xanatos
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Re: Shizune Arc

Post by Xanatos »

Zailen wrote:Plus, who can honestly say that they DISLIKE a girl like Shizune? Uh-huh. I thought so.
80% of this forum minimum, if you listen to the haters. :lol: They just hate work, I think. Slackers can't handle her. I liked it too. xD
<KeiichiO>: "I wonder what Misha's WAHAHA's sound like with a cock stuffed down her throat..."
<Ascension>: "I laughed, cried, vomited in my mouth a little, and even had time for marshmallows afterwards. Well played, Xanatos. Well played."
<KeiichiO>: "That's a beautiful response to chocolate."
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Zailen
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Re: Shizune Arc

Post by Zailen »

Xanatos wrote:
Zailen wrote:Plus, who can honestly say that they DISLIKE a girl like Shizune? Uh-huh. I thought so.
80% of this forum minimum, if you listen to the haters. :lol: They just hate work, I think. Slackers can't handle her. I liked it too. xD
They just haven't yet learned the lesson of hard work if you ask me. Why don't you tell me what it was like growing up in the 80's again Jigaro? Snow? Up hill both ways? Must have been alot worse than us who grew up in the 90s for sure.

But, I digress. it does take a special kind of person to appreciate someone like Shizune. My ex girlfriend was alot like her, pushed me, and kept me in line. i had no choice but to get up off of my couch and develop as a human being xD And learn...wait for it...Skillllsss....*shudders.* bahaha
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Carighan
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Re: Shizune Arc

Post by Carighan »

I agree with you though, Shizune's story was touching like none of the others. Exactly because it was so... normal. And then showed you how quickly things can go from bad to total shit-storm, to quote Zombieland.
YZQ
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Re: Shizune Arc

Post by YZQ »

Carighan wrote:I agree with you though, Shizune's story was touching like none of the others. Exactly because it was so... normal. And then showed you how quickly things can go from bad to total shit-storm, to quote Zombieland.
Once you realise that Shizune is aware of her own flaws, she has you on her side. I know she had me on that boat. You go, girl.
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Re: Shizune Arc

Post by Loonie »

I think for me the most amazing thing about her arc is that it is the ONLY arc where the girl figures shit out for herself in the good end. In every other arc Hisao's words influence the girl for the better, but in this one Hisao's influence does only one thing in the good ending really - convincing Shizune to lay off Misha and giving Hisao the chance to talk to her on her behalf, so that she isn't feeling too defensive herself. Misha pulls herself up and Shizune is clever enough to watch and learn from Misha and thus - figure stuff out for herself too.

That's some serious brainpower - and the good kind too. :)
YZQ
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Re: Shizune Arc

Post by YZQ »

Loonie wrote:I think for me the most amazing thing about her arc is that it is the ONLY arc where the girl figures shit out for herself in the good end. In every other arc Hisao's words influence the girl for the better, but in this one Hisao's influence does only one thing in the good ending really - convincing Shizune to lay off Misha and giving Hisao the chance to talk to her on her behalf, so that she isn't feeling too defensive herself. Misha pulls herself up and Shizune is clever enough to watch and learn from Misha and thus - figure stuff out for herself too.

That's some serious brainpower - and the good kind too. :)
In Lily's route, Hanako also figured out that she must step out of her fears herself, which did not happen in her own route until Hisao almost bashed her on the head with it. Shizune was also gracious enough in Lily's route to make the first step towards repairing their relationship.
"Nothing is beneath man. Everything is permitted."

"...since love and fear can hardly exist together, if we must choose between them, it is far safer to be feared than loved. However, it is important above all to avoid being hated."
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