An odd revelation

[ravenlord]

I am surprised to see so many threads and misunderstanding about this topic.

In the final scene (aptly named "adulthood") the following dialouge takes place:

Hisao:"What we did that night . . . how should I interpret that?"
Hanako:"I thought . . . you might eventually go away if I was only someone that you needed to protect. I thought that if I let you do that . . . you might see me as someone more than that."
Hisao (internally): . . . She offered herself to me because of what she thought I wanted . . .

It is very clear that Hanako offered with intent, and Hisao accepted. Bad decisions on both of their parts -- the sex itself and the reasons behind it. But that is part of growing up; making mistakes and learning from them. In no way was it forced or non-consentual.

[Beoran]

Nemz, apart from timing, whith regards to Hanako's brokenness, perhaps it's more semantics? I'd agree she isn' t strong, but she's fighting, she's resilient. I have known one or two people have given up facing problems far less severe than Hanako's, and as a result are no longer with us... I think what Hanako wants the most is to mean something to someone, to be useful to someone, to give. Rather than receiving pity, she wants to be able to find someone reliable to give love to.

Ravenlord, I guess the debate is more on /when/ Hanako decided to do that, just in the spur of the moment, or with some premeditation, or even days before. I tend to lean more to the latter explanation, but since we don't have access to her thoughts, it's more or less an educated guess.

But if I step, back then I think another great thing about this story is who we all read the same text and saw the same graphics, and still all put the puzzle together in a more or less different way. It really takes a truly great story for this to happen. Or at least, to us it is a really great story. Otherwise we wouldn't be debating the fine points of it to such extent.

[Walrusfella]

Hanako's a big girl who made a decision. Hisao used no force, no threats, and was perfectly gentle the whole time.This might be bordering on too much information, and if so I apologize, but my first time was a bit like theirs. We were both nervous as hell and didn't say much. At no point during the proceedings did she say "you may consider yourself at liberty to put it in" or anything verbal like that, but I most certainly didn't rape her. Perhaps that's why that interpretation of "Whispered Touch" gets up my nose so much.

Thank you Beoran, Ravenlord, and other sensible people, for being sensible.

[Mirrormn]

I feel like I'm reading Is it just me, or is Hanako better off... [Hanako Spoilers] all over again! I guess the nature of this forum is pretty cyclical in general, as older lurkers fade away and freshly feel-ridden KS-noobies show up to replace them. The circle of life, it seems.

[nemz]

Nemz, apart from timing, with regards to Hanako's brokenness, perhaps it's more semantics? I'd agree she isn' t strong, but she's fighting, she's resilient.

Sure, nothing there I disagree with.

Ravenlord, I guess the debate is more on /when/ Hanako decided to do that, just in the spur of the moment, or with some premeditation, or even days before. I tend to lean more to the latter explanation, but since we don't have access to her thoughts, it's more or less an educated guess.

Indeed. And yes, I freely admit we're splitting hairs at this point, but I'd much rather believe this was a sudden decision to just run with the situation than to ascribe it to a premeditated 'test' situation from Hanako. That's more the kind of thing I'd expect from Shizune, though she'd also reply to your answer with immediate correction or reward rather than let things get all awkward and uncertain.

[Megumeru]

That would just really suck for Shizune.

...are we going for another debate here? I'll crack my fingers to be ready

Well, you have to admit, she's never once gave Hisao verbal consent to have sex with her.

Yeah, she doesn't. I have to agree.
Although I generally see her first time with Hisao as one of her 'mind reading' games that build up from Hisao's accidental push to the sofa, to which she ends up a little disappointed when Hisao decided he was a little too shy and conservative not to take any further action.

She reply in force.

[Beoran]

Hanako's a big girl who made a decision. Hisao used no force, no threats, and was perfectly gentle the whole time.This might be bordering on too much information, and if so I apologize, but my first time was a bit like theirs. We were both nervous as hell and didn't say much. At no point during the proceedings did she say "you may consider yourself at liberty to put it in" or anything verbal like that, but I most certainly didn't rape her. Perhaps that's why that interpretation of "Whispered Touch" gets up my nose so much.

Well, said, Walrusfella! I fully agree with you, but I have sworn not to reveal the the secrets of my marriage, so I'll have to leave it at that. I think it's brave that you are willing to talk about your own past. I am sure that there are many people, men and women who had a similar experience, and I think the majority of them likely didn't mind or even enjoyed it to be like that.

As for Shizune... she's indeed yet another good example of one of the reasons why this idea that verbal consent is needed all the time is simply and plainly infeasible. I read her action similarly, but also, the fact that her father disagreed with Hisao probably riled her up even more. It's not clear if she's on the pill, but if not, it's even more extreme. She's willing to have sex with her boyfriend at the moment when her father is there, downstairs in the garden, with the door not locked, and perhaps even risk becoming pregnant. If feels like a big "take that!" in her mind to her father too.

[themocaw]

It's interesting looking at the parallels between the two scar scenes.

Hisao showing Hanako his chest scar leads to one of the most erotically charged moments in the route. Even Hisao notes that things got really really weird then. Rereading it, it's pretty obvious that the entire moment was one kiss, one touch, one word, even, away from turning into sex.

[nemz]

Oh, that's certainly true. It's also true however that it's not what Hisao intended nor something he felt at all comfortable with, so extending the comparison should yield similar results, no? I can see how this could also be seen by others as the reason she really wants to show him all of her, to recapture this erotic tension, but I still don't honestly think she expected him to react as he did for reasons I've already explained. He's the one that pulled away in the first scene when the mood changed afterall, and that has to feel like some degree of rejection already.

[Beoran]

True, if you think about it, while Hanako was caressing him, he *should* just have stood his ground, taken her hand and told her that he liked/loved her. Probably a few kisses would follow. Sex ... well, probably not then, but about around the same time as it went in the game, just far less awkward. But that choice too wasn't given to us, because Hisao doesn't always act in the way we'd like him to, and that is, as I said before, for plot reasons.

Recapturing the erotic tensions as you say, I do lean more to that explanation. Even if there was a slight rejection at the first even, I don't think Hanako would give up that easily now she's in love with Hisao. And whatever reasons or thoughts she had, one thing is clear, by the time of Hanako's reply, Hisao did certainly not pull away. Some people call this a mistake, I call this being a man when your partner expects you to be one. He probably surprised himself he could do this... which didn' t really help the matter at all.

Really, I keep on marveling at this story. It's rare to find a story that grips me so intensely.

[Oddball]

Oh, that's certainly true. It's also true however that it's not what Hisao intended nor something he felt at all comfortable with, so extending the comparison should yield similar results, no? I can see how this could also be seen by others as the reason she really wants to show him all of her, to recapture this erotic tension, but I still don't honestly think she expected him to react as he did for reasons I've already explained.

She might not have really expected it, but whether she hoped for it or not is a different matter. That was basically the whole reason for her showing herself. She thought Hisao wanted a girlfriend he could have sex with and she wanted to prove she wasn't just somebody he had to protect. She openly stated that much.

Although I'm sure with her self esteem issues, a large part of her was probably expecting the worse to happen instead.

Of course while we're on the subject, Hanako treats showing somebody her face as a far more personal and intimate thing than some of the other girls treat actual sex.

He's the one that pulled away in the first scene when the mood changed afterall, and that has to feel like some degree of rejection already.

I'm sure it did, but Hanako is very used to rejection.

[Walrusfella]

Well, said, Walrusfella! I fully agree with you, but I have sworn not to reveal the the secrets of my marriage, so I'll have to leave it at that. I think it's brave that you are willing to talk about your own past. I am sure that there are many people, men and women who had a similar experience, and I think the majority of them likely didn't mind or even enjoyed it to be like that.

Part of the appeal of their story for me is personal nostalgia. Different circumstances, but some points hit close to home.

Of course while we're on the subject, Hanako treats showing somebody her face as a far more personal and intimate thing than some of the other girls treat actual sex.

Well put, it certainly seems that way.