An odd revelation

[Beoran]

I never thought anything about Hisao forcing her or anything like that until I read it on this forum. It annoyed me when I did come across it; that assertion strips Hanako of her agency and implies that she isn't competent to make that decision. It infantilises her.

This! I can't say how much I agree with this! I think it's because there are quite a few "white knights" around here who just haven't gotten the point.

Hanako is a smart girl, she knew exactly what she was doing. The whole point was to of her wanting to have sex with Hisao was to make him stop white knighting her. And it worked admirably. I daresay she probably even started to sort of plan on doing it with Hisao when he showed her his scar. She must have decided around that time she needed to one-up him to save their relationship. You show me your scar, I show you my scars, and raise you my whole body too.

Another point which people don't seem to get is that if Hisao had rejected to have sex wit her at that moment, their relationship would have been over. Exactly because rejecting her then, at that time when she shows that she is her own person, rejecting her would have been treating her like someone who can't decide for herself, like someone to be coddled. It would be white knighting all over again. Hisao and Hanako already loved each other at that point even though they didn't say it, and that is why I think they both made the right decision given the circumstances. Even if we think Hanao's and Hisao's reasons may not be the best ones, we have to accept that they have both made their own decisions, and respect them for that.

By having sex, Hisao and Hanako physically prove to themselves that they are not protector and protectee, but two humans on the same level, man and woman, who meet each other at the same level in the most ancient and primal of ways. By connecting physically, on a subconscious level, they break the physical walls between them. It takes a while for that realization to sink in to their minds. But when they talk about it later, they do realize what is going on, and the wall between them breaks also on a mental and emotional level.

[Xerxes]

I never thought anything about Hisao forcing her or anything like that until I read it on this forum. It annoyed me when I did come across it; that assertion strips Hanako of her agency and implies that she isn't competent to make that decision. It infantilises her.

This! I can't say how much I agree with this! I think it's because there are quite a few "white knights" around here who just haven't gotten the point.

Hanako is a smart girl, she knew exactly what she was doing. The whole point was to of her wanting to have sex with Hisao was to make him stop white knighting her. And it worked admirably. I daresay she probably even started to sort of plan on doing it with Hisao when he showed her his scar. She must have decided around that time she needed to one-up him to save their relationship. You show me your scar, I show you my scars, and raise you my whole body too.

Another point which people don't seem to get is that if Hisao had rejected to have sex wit her at that moment, their relationship would have been over. Exactly because rejecting her then, at that time when she shows that she is her own person, rejecting her would have been treating her like someone who can't decide for herself, like someone to be coddled. It would be white knighting all over again. Hisao and Hanako already loved each other at that point even though they didn't say it, and that is why I think they both made the right decision given the circumstances. Even if we think Hanao's and Hisao's reasons may not be the best ones, we have to accept that they have both made their own decisions, and respect them for that.

By having sex, Hisao and Hanako physically prove to themselves that they are not protector and protectee, but two humans on the same level, man and woman, who meet each other at the same level in the most ancient and primal of ways. By connecting physically, on a subconscious level, they break the physical walls between them. It takes a while for that realization to sink in to their minds. But when they talk about it later, they do realize what is going on, and the wall between them breaks also on a mental and emotional level.

I agree, Hanako is not a bimbo, she spends a lot of time reading books after all. I always had the impression that the whole crying scene at the park near the good ending was also part of her plan to make sure that Hisao truly loves her, although this doesn't mean that she wasn't genuinely afraid of botching her plan, and therefore losing Hisao.

That's the lesson that Miss Ikezawa left us: She's not a baby that must be coddled and pampered. She may be shy and insecure, but she's very careful and smart, she wouldn't allow somebody to get close to her by white-knighting.

Rin, when playing her route, she points out that Hisao is disturbingly kind with her, so much that it can be scary.

Hisao may look like a dork with fits of white-knighting, but he has his reasons, he lost a lot before coming to Yamaku, his subconscious urged him to find friends, and someone to love and to be loved, after the events with Iwanako that lead to the whole Katawa Shoujo plotline.

[Beoran]

And this too! Xerxes, apart from the fact that I think the crying in that scene was genuinely out of worry that her plan had failed I couldn't agree more with you.

Hisao of course has his reasons. But you see, I think Hanako proves her brilliance by seeing though Hisao's motivations and doing what she can to help him, because she loves him. All in all, Hisao starts out their relationship thinking he will save her, but in the end, Hanako is able to turn this around, and she ends up helping Hisao just as much, perhaps even more so than he helps her. She gives him the love he needs so badly.

[Oogy]

All I'm saying is that if there was a different option for Hanako to achieve what she wanted besides having sex, she'd have taken it.

[Beoran]

Well that may be so, but the story is written in such a way that we can't decide this. And the story was written like this, to offer no alternative, so it could better drive the point home. To better deconstruct the "moe cutie", and show that behind her shyness and anxieties, she is an intelligent, caring woman after all. "Read my lips no white knighting." Or read my Nietzsche quote in my signature. Great love cannot exist if there is pity. And what better way to say "I reject your pity and subsitute my love!"?

But I think that if they had become boyfriend and girlfriend in any other way, then they would also have ended up having sex quite soon anyway. Because they're very much in love with each other, and add to that their healthy teenage hormones... Shy people, men and women, can get horny too, you know, especially around someone they like. Hanako would probably still have been have been eager to seal the deal, and Hisao wouldn't have said no either. And I'm not so sure it would have been that much more fun for the two of them seeing how shy and inexperienced they both are.

[Guest Poster]

Either Weee was less shy about drawing private parts or the illustration was meant to show how physical and emotionally detached the whole thing was.

The whole point was to of her wanting to have sex with Hisao was to make him stop white knighting her. And it worked admirably.

I always had the impression that the whole crying scene at the park near the good ending was also part of her plan to make sure that Hisao truly loves her, although this doesn't mean that she wasn't genuinely afraid of botching her plan, and therefore losing Hisao.

I think Hanako's being given way too much credit here. It wasn't Hanako who arranged the gettogether in the park, that was Hisao. Hanako's plan didn't really go any farther than "strip in front of him, let him have sex with me if he's turned on and hope he'll go out with me if he no longer sees me as a kid sister". I don't think the extremely awkward morning after was part of Hanako's plan. She was probably surprised things were suddenly so uncomfortable. If Hisao hadn't initiated that talk in the park, Hanako and Hisao probably would have drifted apart. So her "seduction" worked, but mostly because she was lucky, not because everything went according to plan. Hanako's confessions in the park scene weren't premeditated...she simply realized that their friendship was on the verge of collapsing and the only way to hang onto each other was to be straight-forward with one another. The crying was real...Hanako really did believe she messed up.

Hanako may be fairly smart and she drew the correct conclusions regarding Hisao's white knighting, but she also has a gloomy worldview that severely colors her perceptions and her assumption about the reason Hisao stopped obsessing over her was wildly off the mark. Rather than pretending Hanako is extremely good at reading people's perception of her (she isn't), you might also conclude Hanako has the bad habit of assuming the worst about people's views towards her and the white knighting observation was spot on simply because the worst assumption happened to be the correct one at the time and not because she's good at guessing what people think of her.

I daresay she probably even started to sort of plan on doing it with Hisao when he showed her his scar.

I agree. I doubt Hanako would have stripped for Hisao if this scene hadn't taken place early. The scene was probably the closest Hisao and Hanako came to just dropping the emotional hide and seek and kissing each other. Even before Hisao reveals his scar, Hisao and Hanako have a brief staring match with Hanako trying to say something (presumably a confession), but not quite managing it and Hisao doesn't pry. Hisao also notes that contrary to his expectations, Hanako seems calm while stroking his chest. (which actually goes on for several minutes before they become aware of what they're doing and embarrassedly back off) Hanako was most likely surprised at the revelation about herself that she actually enjoyed physical intimacy.

All I'm saying is that if there was a different option for Hanako to achieve what she wanted besides having sex, she'd have taken it.

That's not very unlikely at all.

Hisao may look like a dork with fits of white-knighting, but he has his reasons, he lost a lot before coming to Yamaku, his subconscious urged him to find friends, and someone to love and to be loved, after the events with Iwanako that lead to the whole Katawa Shoujo plotline.

Most likely, Hisao saw himself in Hanako. The two have very similar mindsets and react similarly in several important situations. To Hisao, "fixing" Hanako was like "fixing" himself. He probably felt that if he gave up on her, he'd be like all his former friends who walked away from him after he had his accident. That's kinda where his white knighting came from.

[Oddball]

Hanako is very smart and very observant ... and completley lacks any social skills or sense of self worth. It's a very dangerous combination.

[Izzy_t/r]

Sometimes people do crazy things when they love someone very much and not have a second thought. We all sometimes do rash things and not think twice. At least that's what I'm saying...

[Beoran]

Ah, the great, mysterious Guest Poster strikes again! I always love to read your ideas.

Ok, I'll admit I tend to overestimate Hanako a bit, if only because I see so many people underestimating her... Like Oddball says, it may also be due to the lack of social skills and self worth... she was unable to talk, so that forced her to act. But still, I don't think it was just dumb luck that it worked out. For that she had Hisao to thank for. He did actually love her. She may not have known this, but I think it's not unfair she must have hoped that he at least liked her. And I agree her crying then was genuine.

Yes, the way in which Hanako caressed Hisao was an aspect I didn't think about before. It does mean they were getting physically comfortable with each other. Actually, that's in essence a sign of mutual liking. Often, the part of the brain closest to the body body already understands these things that the rational mind and emotions don't acknowledge yet.

Like Izzy_t/r, yeah, I agree. And you see, sometimes these "crazy" things are what actually makes the relationship work... I have experienced this much myself. So that's why I sort of feel strongly against the idea that what Hanako and Hisao did was a mistake in any way. It wasn't. Sometimes, in some situations, such "foolishness" just what is needed jumpstart a relationship.

[Walrusfella]

You've got the right of it, Beoran. I'm glad the silly interpretation is definitely a minority opinion on this forum.

[Guest Poster]

Ok, I'll admit I tend to overestimate Hanako a bit, if only because I see so many people underestimating her... Like Oddball says, it may also be due to the lack of social skills and self worth... she was unable to talk, so that forced her to act. But still, I don't think it was just dumb luck that it worked out. For that she had Hisao to thank for. He did actually love her. She may not have known this, but I think it's not unfair she must have hoped that he at least liked her. And I agree her crying then was genuine.

Dumb luck may have been a poor description. Obviously the talk in the park worked out because both cared very much about the other and their combined efforts at openess broke down the walls between them. But Hisao manning up and arranging that candid talk between them was luck on Hanako's part...he could have continued moping about their awkward relationship in which case the whole night before would have backfired spectacularly.

Yes, the way in which Hanako caressed Hisao was an aspect I didn't think about before. It does mean they were getting physically comfortable with each other. Actually, that's in essence a sign of mutual liking. Often, the part of the brain closest to the body body already understands these things that the rational mind and emotions don't acknowledge yet.

In a way that scene is much more intimate than their first sexual intercourse together. The events that resulted in the mutual loss of their virginities were awkward and stilted, but the chest stroking scene was legitimately tender.

[AdventSign]

Basically in short Hanako was afraid of losing Hiaso and in her mind that may have been the one way she knew how to hold on to somebody. There are many different things about this but I don't feel like she wanted to do it...she may have felt like she HAD to.

[Guest Poster]

Hanako's gloomy views on friendship (namely that it's temporary and only lasts until the other gets bored of coddling her or decides to turn against her) explain why Hanako had little faith her friendship with Hisao was likely to keep him around her, which might have been one reason for her to wish for a relationship (which I assume she felt WOULD last), but it's not the only one. Later dialogue indicates Hanako was genuinely in love with Hisao and really did want to be his girlfriend because she was attracted to him.

That said, their night together was a desperate action that wouldn't have taken place if Hanako hadn't been convinced Hisao was about to walk away on her.

[Beoran]

Well, my point of view is colored by the fact that I know a bit about Japanese culture, and in my experience, becoming someone's boyfriend/girlfriend is , in Japan, in most cases, equivalent to starting a sexual relationship. Sex sort of comes with the bf/gf territory, and is more or less expected to happen by both men and women who start such a relationship. It's probably like this in other parts of the world as well...

So I think Hanako wanted Hisao to be her boyfriend, it would make sense that it wasn't only for love, but also for sex. And the same would go for Hisao. That's why I'm still convinced that if they'd become bf/gf in another way, for example, by Hisao confessing his feelings to her before, they would have ended up having sex anyway, and probably even relatively soon. So that night together would still have happened, although in quite a different context.

[yummines]

btw heres an image to all those who support "Hisao raped Hanako" theory