Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

[WorldlyWiseman]

But Rinbro, he said that his definition of a character's "best" is when they are being the most honest with themselves, not when they're being "nice". Those moments do fit those criteria, even if she was being her usual guarded and inflexible (but honest, always honest and, most of all, NEVER TAKING A VACATION TO SCOTLAND) persona.

Which is why I said it was "interesting" that those moments were chosen. If those are her "most honest" moments, then Shizune is a selfish person who never loved Hisao and is hopelessly incompatible with her best friend. It's really weird that someone who is so devoted to Shizune would choose to focus on those aspects of her story to be the most truly defining of her character, instead of moments like the scene between Shizune and Lilly in the student council room, where she lets her antagonistic facade down to show some real compassion. But I guess that's not Shizune at her "most honest"?

Okay, we need to stop shifting the standards of judgement here. A good game needs clear goals.

When is Shizune most herself?

[Titus]

But Rinbro, he said that his definition of a character's "best" is when they are being the most honest with themselves, not when they're being "nice". Those moments do fit those criteria, even if she was being her usual guarded and inflexible (but honest, always honest and, most of all, NEVER TAKING A VACATION TO SCOTLAND) persona.

Which is why I said it was "interesting" that those moments were chosen. If those are her "most honest" moments, then Shizune is a selfish person who never loved Hisao and is hopelessly incompatible with her best friend. It's really weird that someone who is so devoted to Shizune would choose to focus on those aspects of her story to be the most truly defining of her character, instead of moments like the scene between Shizune and Lilly in the student council room, where she lets her antagonistic facade down to show some real compassion. But I guess that's not Shizune at her "most honest"?

Okay, we need to stop shifting the standards of judgement here. A good game needs clear goals.

When is Shizune most herself?

Competing.

[Oddball]

I can't understand why people are mad at Lilly for not telling Hisao about moving away, but can still call Shizune honest.

Shizune may not openly lie often, but she's nowhere near honest or trustworthy. She's manipulative, purposely leads people on to the wrong conclusions, and has an ulterior motive for pretty much everything she does.

There is one thing Lilly can't tell Hisao about because she doesn't know how to handle it. For Shizune, it's not one thing she can't communicate. It's everything.

It was brought up that when a character is honest with themselves that they're at their best. I disagree. It's one thing to open up and say "you know what, I'm a horrible person." It's far more impressive to try to NOT be a horrible person, even if it's only for a moment.

[khaosdvorak]

ALL HAIL SHIZUNE!

[metalangel]

I can't understand why people are mad at Lilly for not telling Hisao about moving away, but can still call Shizune honest.

Shizune may not openly lie often, but she's nowhere near honest or trustworthy. She's manipulative, purposely leads people on to the wrong conclusions, and has an ulterior motive for pretty much everything she does.

There is one thing Lilly can't tell Hisao about because she doesn't know how to handle it. For Shizune, it's not one thing she can't communicate. It's everything.

It was brought up that when a character is honest with themselves that they're at their best. I disagree. It's one thing to open up and say "you know what, I'm a horrible person." It's far more impressive to try to NOT be a horrible person, even if it's only for a moment.

The counterpoint is that in some cases it's for the other person's own good. Shizune pushed Hisao into the Student Council to stop him just moping around feeling sorry for himself by giving him stuff to occupy him. Since he was resisting it took some coercion (note that he can still ultimately choose not to). A case of being cruel to be kind, and you can't always outright tell the other person "I'm doing this mean stuff because..." it'll undermine what you're trying to do. (hell, even dodging their two pronged assault occupied his mind with something other than how miserable he was)

Try not to be a horrible person? Absolutely. Shizune isn't completely sure how at first, and I think she hopes that the happiness everyone gets at the end of the project when they're stuff with fried food and playing games (be it in the council room just the three of them, or a festival for the whole school) will outweigh the rough patches to get there.

When is Shizune most herself?

Competing.

Shizune at her Shizunest!

[Megumeru]

But Rinbro, he said that his definition of a character's "best" is when they are being the most honest with themselves, not when they're being "nice". Those moments do fit those criteria, even if she was being her usual guarded and inflexible (but honest, always honest and, most of all, NEVER TAKING A VACATION TO SCOTLAND) persona.

Which is why I said it was "interesting" that those moments were chosen. If those are her "most honest" moments, then Shizune is a selfish person who never loved Hisao and is hopelessly incompatible with her best friend. It's really weird that someone who is so devoted to Shizune would choose to focus on those aspects of her story to be the most truly defining of her character, instead of moments like the scene between Shizune and Lilly in the student council room, where she lets her antagonistic facade down to show some real compassion. But I guess that's not Shizune at her "most honest"?

I think worded something incorrectly, or am not clear enough.

But anyway, here's my take on why I find those scenes to be her "most honest". Most people won't agree it was her 'best' scene, and I can understand that--but I am not looking for best scene, I am looking for what made 'character X' stands out the most, the 'best' moment, or what defines 'character X'; and this I simply look in how honest a character can be, let it be facial expression, words, actions, etc.

This is my definition of 'character's best'

Now on to the scene.

First let's look at Shizune's character. I think I've explained and elaborated on this many times before, so many of you by now are familiar with it. Shizune's honest, yes she is. Shizune's determined and hard working, yes she is. Shizune's socially insecure, wait what?
Yes, you heard me. Socially insecure, a packet that comes with her disability aside being unable to relate to others (actually, those are connected anyway). Shizune's honest, yes, but does that mean she doesn't have anything to hide? She does. Everybody in KS has something to hide, be it the past, insecurity, disability, etc. But it is how you attempt to resolve it that defines how honest you are--you can try to run away from it (Lilly), confront it (Hanako & Emi [and Lilly to some degree at the final]), or reveal it piece by piece (Rin & Shizune).

The next few 'looks' are based on my perspective, disagreements are bound to happen and are welcomed otherwise.

Throughout ACTI if you're following Shizune's route and later up to ACTII, you'll realize how she is the pro-active individual to reach for Hisao. But also note that she became even more pro-active in pursuing a relationship when Misha's not around--when she is there, she'll put up the all-serious-all-business persona she was famous for with a few loopholes. You see where I'm going here?
Shizune may already have developed feelings for Hisao by late to end of ACTI, and since the story is taken in Hisao's POV you're only given the perspective of Hisao, which he believed that he is 'making progress'. Of course, she receive her share of surprises when she learned Hisao studied sign-language to communicate with her--is she happy about it? She is very much so, but she won't reveal it face-front to Hisao.

Why?

Her social insecurity. There are of course, loopholes to which you can tell how she really feel--this may or may not be accurate, but it did bought my attention on defining the scenes before as her 'best moments'. If you can't get the 'truth' from words or language, then there's one more way to cross-check it: facial expressions and body language. You might think I have a screw loose in my head by now (rest assured, you're wrong. There's more than one), but considering the entire cast of KS heroine, Shizune has the most changes in facial expressions per-page/text--maybe it's just me and my eyes are playing tricks. In each line Hisao or she "said", she'll express most of her emotions or discontent via body language.

Now I have to agree that Shizune's assistance in lifting Hisao from his depression during the festival in ACTI can be considered to be selfishly-motivated, but coincidental? I may not exactly 'buy' the coincidental part. What about curiosity? A factor on her 'selfish-motivation', but she may very well be curious of Hisao and accidentally caught a glimpse of his depression which she acted upon in the end of ACT I.

Now on the confession aspect, Shizune was emotional--and was pretty happy about it. Of course, looking at her disability and her social insecurity she couldn't convey it properly with voices--replying "I also love you too" in sign isn't as satisfying anyhow considering how often 'action is stronger than words'-line is emphasized more than once, and she's not Emi who would immediately jump to him and kiss him. How can we tell that she is very much emotional about it? Her body language, facial features, and also looking on the aspect of 'Tanabata festival'. I think I've explained it on another thread or here, but if I haven't, the 'Tanabata festival' is basically a festival for lovers. If you're a boy/man/guy living in Japan and was invited by a girl to a festival--especially Tanabata, you'll feel damn well positive there's more in store for you than just a regular 'night-out'.

Now who invited Hisao to the Tanabata Festival? Shizune did. She's dressed at her absolute best in here too.

Now, from ACTI to the end of ACTII if I haven't made myself clear:
1. Shizune is socially insecure; this is a packet with her inability to relate to people due to her disability.
2. Shizune may have developed feelings for Hisao by the end of ACTI
3. Shizune's facial expression/body language gave away hints of her character and/or her emotional status (notice in 'Terminal' she barely made any changes to her facial feature/gesture--you know shit hits the fan by then)
4. Shizune's social insecurity effectively sealed most of her emotions away. HOWEVER, she is willing to open this piece by piece (her confession ends with a careful and tentative hug; this hinted how she's unfamiliar to this kind of relationship and wished to learn more about the other party before she opens up.)

Now why do I say the confession scene to be one of her 'best moments'? When I said earlier that she managed to put up that 'business' face, in the confession scene that 'mask' was instantly shattered and all that bottled up emotions she have towards Hisao were all reflected on her face/body language.

Now on the 'other ACTIV' scene.

It is a given based on my argument that Shizune's social insecurity and inability to relate to other people are due to her disability. Now consider these aspects and her numerous yet vain attempt to reconcile their relationship with Misha. you'd call her foolish, maybe to some people selfish and manipulative (what?).
If she is really that selfish and manipulative, she could easily just follow Misha's 'lead', ditch her entirely, and stay with Hisao--beside, he's her new translator, right? Misha won't be needed. WRONG.

No matter what happen, what Misha did, and how she constantly tried to avoid Hisao and Shizune, the Student Council president will always try to approach her. Considering her social insecurity, this gives off an aspect of Shizune's character.
Shizune is loyal.
Doesn't matter if she has tens, hundreds, if not thousands of new one, but if she somehow guessed or caught wind that one of her closest friend is feeling down because of her she'll immediately try to pour everything to fix it--even if it means (without her knowledge due to her inability to relate) throwing new shit into the shit-stained fan. Ew.

Her effort, despite fruitless and vain, is commendable with her disability considered and that tells me a lot about her character. Considering the number of friends she has, and if I were to give a sentence to describe it, she's the type who "values one friend as much as a hundred".

I can't understand why people are mad at Lilly for not telling Hisao about moving away, but can still call Shizune honest.

Shizune may not openly lie often, but she's nowhere near honest or trustworthy. She's manipulative, purposely leads people on to the wrong conclusions, and has an ulterior motive for pretty much everything she does.

There is one thing Lilly can't tell Hisao about because she doesn't know how to handle it. For Shizune, it's not one thing she can't communicate. It's everything.

It was brought up that when a character is honest with themselves that they're at their best. I disagree. It's one thing to open up and say "you know what, I'm a horrible person." It's far more impressive to try to NOT be a horrible person, even if it's only for a moment.

I think we've been over this aspect before in previous discussions in this forum--this include the topic of 'manipulative', 'being a horrible person', etc. so I'll save my breath from writing another wall of text. Please refer to the previous, previous post--say, 3-5 pages back I believe.

Oh, and Lilly is a procrastinating, irresponsible liar. Lilly can communicate to Hisao about most of her issues and problems, but decides not to or extended her 'deadline' until Hisao went through a near-death experience. Shizune on the other hand can't communicate everything she wanted to say, but still tries to do so to the best of her ability.

-a procrastinator, irresponsible, and a liar
-a socially insecure deaf mute who tries to communicate and share her world

Huh. Think about it.


but anyway, another theory I came up with.
"Misha plays the 'Cupid' in Shizune's route"

what do you guys think?
ohgodIreallyhavetostopplayingKS

[Mysterious Stranger]

-a procrastinator, irresponsible, and a liar
-a socially insecure deaf mute who tries to communicate and share her world

Huh. Think about it.

-a procrastinating and irresponsible liar (each of which is arguable - also, grammar)
-a borderline sociopath who treats people like objects or conquests because she doesn't know how to interact with them normally

Huh. Think about it.

Fixed. Surprisingly easy to put the worst possible spin on a character like that.

[WorldlyWiseman]

When is Shizune most herself?

Competing.

Shizune at her Shizunest!

This is like saying that Rin is most herself when 'being weird', which any Rin fan will know isn't true.

Shizune is most herself when applying herself and others to a problem. Being competitive is just a side effect. She pours more into Student Council work with Misha and Hisao than she does any round of chess or Risk, because those games are just the same as Emi running by herself or Rin trying to paint something for someone other than herself.

What she wants most is the challenge of building something that will last, and she is continually frustrated by the fact that she can't use traditional avenues of leading people. Note the example she uses about using a personal story to build trust with someone else - it just doesn't work if you have to speak through an interpreter. She is a leader at heart, but has to work much harder at it both because of having to work so indirectly and because she can overestimate others' ability to care about her goals.

In the end, she (likely) chooses Hisao because she thinks he is up to the challenge.

But are you?

-a procrastinator, irresponsible, and a liar
-a socially insecure deaf mute who tries to communicate and share her world

Huh. Think about it.

-a procrastinating and irresponsible liar (each of which is arguable - also, grammar)
-a borderline sociopath who treats people like objects or conquests because she doesn't know how to interact with them normally

Huh. Think about it.

Fixed. Surprisingly easy to put the worst possible spin on a character like that.

Both of these assessments are silly.

Shizune's tendency to keep her different emotions apart from one another isn't the same thing as being socially insecure.

Shizune does not treat people as conquests. At worst, she just doesn't bother with them if she feels that they cannot deliver. Notice that the only time we see her really put the heat on Hanako is when she finds out that Hanako plays chess pretty well.

Calling Lilly irresponsible is simplistic. She feels responsibility for people, clearly enough evidence for that in the text. She just doesn't push people. She is not a leader.

Lilly does not purposely lie, I don't think. I think she holds back on the Scotland issue because she doesn't want to hurt Hisao. Think about the end of their last H scene, the look on her face.

She pities Hisao. Lilly is the White Knight.

I know you were trying to be funny to make a point, but the arguments on both sides are starting to actually resemble this.

Shizune's motivations for roping Hisao into the festival prep

Arguing whether Shizune is selfishly getting Hisao to labor for her or if she just wants to help him feel better is splitting too fine hair - if the rest of my assessment holds true, it's perfectly reasonable for these two things to be one and the same for her.

[Oddball]

Arguing whether Shizune is selfishly getting Hisao to labor for her or if she just wants to help him feel better is splitting too fine hair - if the rest of my assessment holds true, it's perfectly reasonable for these two things to be one and the same for her.

Didn't she "say" something about being glad Lilly was angry with her because it at least meant Lilly was doing something and reacting to things?

That's another huge difference between the two. Lilly wants people to be comfortable and enjoy themselves but Shizune wants people to accomplish things whether they enjoy themselves or not.

[Mysterious Stranger]

I know you were trying to be funny to make a point, but the arguments on both sides are starting to actually resemble this.

Glad you caught that, haha.

Arguing whether Shizune is selfishly getting Hisao to labor for her or if she just wants to help him feel better is splitting too fine hair - if the rest of my assessment holds true, it's perfectly reasonable for these two things to be one and the same for her.

So speculating over Shicchan's motives is reading too far into it, but speculation regarding Lilly and her choices is just fine? You're going to have to clarify.

[WorldlyWiseman]

I know you were trying to be funny to make a point, but the arguments on both sides are starting to actually resemble this.

Glad you caught that, haha.

Arguing whether Shizune is selfishly getting Hisao to labor for her or if she just wants to help him feel better is splitting too fine hair - if the rest of my assessment holds true, it's perfectly reasonable for these two things to be one and the same for her.

So speculating over Shicchan's motives is reading too far into it, but speculation regarding Lilly and her choices is just fine? You're going to have to clarify.

If Hisao gets to work on something, he might be able to get out of that rut he's in.

If Hisao's work strengthens the institution of the Student Council, then the school benefits.

If Hisao's work also happens to help me out, well, then that's just dandy.

--

If her selfishness is inseparable from her ideas of greater community gain, then can we really call it selfishness? It's not like she's making him lift boxes of forms so she can check out his butt.

Didn't she "say" something about being glad Lilly was angry with her because it at least meant Lilly was doing something and reacting to things?

That's another huge difference between the two. Lilly wants people to be comfortable and enjoy themselves but Shizune wants people to accomplish things whether they enjoy themselves or not.

I think she mentioned something along those lines. I don't remember when, however.

Predictability and stability seems to be a pretty big deal with Lilly. It makes sense, with how she interacts with the world.

[metalangel]

Shizune at her Shizunest!

This is like saying that Rin is most herself when 'being weird', which any Rin fan will know isn't true.

Geez, I make a little KS-related quip and look at what I get.

[Megumeru]

Emi is "Emiest" when she runs--this is quoted from Rin

Lilly is "Lilliest" when she stays in the club room and drink tea.

Hanako is "Hanakoest" when she's in the Library reading books all-by-her-lonesome

Shizune is "Shizuest" when she accomplished something

Rin is "Rinnest" when she has the freedom to express herself.
That's not weird. It's just how people work--hell, the term 'weird' is subjective in terms of perspective; I can say people who bring a newspaper to the toilet is weird, and people may or may not agree with it. You're there to take a shit, not to read about shit.

The "-est" in its simplest form.

Shizune at her Shizunest!

This is like saying that Rin is most herself when 'being weird', which any Rin fan will know isn't true.

Geez, I make a little KS-related quip and look at what I get.

war. War never changes...
...
...
...I guess?

Calling Lilly irresponsible is simplistic. She feels responsibility for people, clearly enough evidence for that in the text. She just doesn't push people. She is not a leader.

YES! YEEEEESS!!

I have to loathe myself for being born in a non-English speaking country, but that's what I meant to convey.

"Lilly feels responsible for people, but lacks the ability to act on it--which, IMO, makes her irresponsible."

A good example...

Lilly doesn't have any reason to miss the deadline even if the student she assigned was absent from class for several days. If one's absent, she could go and ask another student to help her complete it--so why couldn't she? She doesn't have any reason to miss the deadline or ask for an extension--hell, check 'Cold War'; she's the only class representative who hasn't submitted any of it while others have.

If five to ten classes are unable to complete it, then the problem lies with the leader/head/organizer/President/Kaichou/Bucchou/etc. who set an unrealistic goal, be it the end product or timeline. But if only ONE fails to do so, then the problem lies in that class alone (in this case the leadership)--and considering it is just a budget report, she has no reason to say 'one kid has been sick and I can't do it' when she has twenty three other people that supports her (she's popular, isn't she?).

Saying 'one kid is sick and I can't complete it' is like pushing your failure/blame on the other who was unfortunate enough to be in that position at the time, and that's low. (Let's say you put yourself in that sick guy's shoe, you're assigned with the task, and you unfortunately caught that illness. Lilly is your class representative, and by some accident or psychic power you heard that she said "because 'x' is ill, I couldn't give you the report". How would you feel? Think about it.)

That's from a previous post--page 8-9 I think. You can feel responsible for a lot of things, but if you can't--or won't--act on it, then you're still irresponsible nonetheless.

Lilly does not purposely lie, I don't think. I think she holds back on the Scotland issue because she doesn't want to hurt Hisao. Think about the end of their last H scene, the look on her face.

You mean the ahegao one?

but anyway, it's true and I agree with this point. But "white lie" or not, it's still a 'lie'. How she confront her problems--by running away--is what irked me the most about her character. Makes me wonder that if she was ever accidentally...'you know' by Hisao, would she tell him immediately or would she wait for three to nine months before telling him about it?

sometimes it makes me wonder that Lilly's neutral ending is the 'canon' ending for her route (aside from the absurd amount of 'plot time-space jump' Hisao takes when using the Taxi to Shizune's house, to the airport. What does the Taxi driver have? Doraemon's "doko demo door"?).

Hisao watches Lilly leave for the airport, broke up with Lilly, then make a run for Hanako. Giggity.

She pities Hisao. Lilly is the White Knight.

...which is the exact opposite of what KS tried to teach you through Hanako's route. Which makes me wonder...if Hisao didn't butt into Hanako and Lilly's lives, Hanako would most likely remain the way she is and possibly end up even worse than what she became


Damn it, I just had a political debate in one of my college classes and now this starts to sound like one

[Mirrormn]

A good example...

Lilly doesn't have any reason to miss the deadline even if the student she assigned was absent from class for several days. If one's absent, she could go and ask another student to help her complete it--so why couldn't she? She doesn't have any reason to miss the deadline or ask for an extension--hell, check 'Cold War'; she's the only class representative who hasn't submitted any of it while others have.

If five to ten classes are unable to complete it, then the problem lies with the leader/head/organizer/President/Kaichou/Bucchou/etc. who set an unrealistic goal, be it the end product or timeline. But if only ONE fails to do so, then the problem lies in that class alone (in this case the leadership)--and considering it is just a budget report, she has no reason to say 'one kid has been sick and I can't do it' when she has twenty three other people that supports her (she's popular, isn't she?).

Saying 'one kid is sick and I can't complete it' is like pushing your failure/blame on the other who was unfortunate enough to be in that position at the time, and that's low. (Let's say you put yourself in that sick guy's shoe, you're assigned with the task, and you unfortunately caught that illness. Lilly is your class representative, and by some accident or psychic power you heard that she said "because 'x' is ill, I couldn't give you the report". How would you feel? Think about it.)

That's from a previous post--page 8-9 I think. You can feel responsible for a lot of things, but if you can't--or won't--act on it, then you're still irresponsible nonetheless.

Except that she didn't miss the deadline, and it's likely that she was never going to miss the deadline. It was due the day Shizune was pestering her about it, yes, but that exchange happened early in the morning, and she still had the entire rest of the day to get the paperwork from those sick students and turn it in (and she presumably did so). And she mentions the paperwork deadline to Hisao before Misha and Shizune even come to the classroom, which means she didn't even need to be reminded about it, let alone nagged and accused of forgetting and not completing it. There was absolutely 0 irresponsibility demonstrated by Lilly in that whole situation. There was, however, a fair amount of unnecessarily gleeful antagonism demonstrated by Shizune.

[Titus]

This is like saying that Rin is most herself when 'being weird', which any Rin fan will know isn't true.

Shizune is most herself when applying herself and others to a problem. Being competitive is just a side effect. She pours more into Student Council work with Misha and Hisao than she does any round of chess or Risk, because those games are just the same as Emi running by herself or Rin trying to paint something for someone other than herself.

What she wants most is the challenge of building something that will last, and she is continually frustrated by the fact that she can't use traditional avenues of leading people. Note the example she uses about using a personal story to build trust with someone else - it just doesn't work if you have to speak through an interpreter. She is a leader at heart, but has to work much harder at it both because of having to work so indirectly and because she can overestimate others' ability to care about her goals.

In the end, she (likely) chooses Hisao because she thinks he is up to the challenge.

You know how easily I can just change that the other way around ? Shizune is competitive, solving life's problems is merely a way for her to play a game. Getting Hisao to join the student council, trying to win Misha back, harassing Lilly for the hell of it. It's all some game with people one way or another. Your own example of building something that will last is like competing against the clock. The student council was a way to build something that will last, everyday a new challenge presents itself, each day closer to graduation and still not finding people interested in continuing the student council (until the end where everything works itself out amazingly). It's why she was so worried about the next council being ineffective and possibly ruin everything Shizune has done so far. You know, failing to win at her goal of making something that will last. It's competing, it's a game etc.

Hanako has games, Emi runs, Rin paints, and Shizune competes. Don't go beyond that because you don't have to, you're reading too much into anything and everything.

This is like saying that Rin is most herself when 'being weird', which any Rin fan will know isn't true.

I don't know if that was on purpose, but don't go ahead and use the painfully obvious and wrong comparison for Rin in order to invalidate my answer. We all know painting is to Rin like competing is to Shizune. If you said Rin was weird, then at least use that if I said "shizune is a bossy bitch".

THAT is a good comparison