Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

[BobBobberson]

Dafuq did this thread turn into? It's either Shizune or Lilly dammit, no need to throw in the 'rape' of Hisao.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Dafuq did this thread turn into? It's either Shizune or Lilly dammit, no need to throw in the 'rape' of Hisao.

You didn't read the thread thoroughly.

As a side note, I think Shizune's first sex scene is not technically an act of rape, but it's getting pretty close. If Hisao had legitimately not wanted to have sex at that time, he probably could have effectively communicated that to Shizune even with his hands tied (vehemently shaking his head, struggling to break free of his cuffs, etc.), at which point Shizune would very likely have backed off, untied his hands, and made sure everything was consensual (of course, if she didn't, you'd be pretty justified in calling it rape at that point). Man, it seems like every thread on this forum comes to a discussion of rape sooner or later, doesn't it?

To be perfectly clear, I was being somewhat facetious when I brought up the whole "Shicchan raped Hicchan" allegation. I'd agree that it's probably the closest you could get to rape while comfortably avoiding it, and I'll be the first to admit that the thought hardly occurred to me when I played Shizune's arc for the first time.

[WorldlyWiseman]

Mirromn is right.
I may be Team Lilly, but I love the Shizunebros and I weep for them that their wonderful girl was poorly utilized in her route

I'm not so sure that she was 'underutilized' so much as 'low-key'. Her life doesn't generate as much drama as Lilly or Hanako and she isn't impenetrable like Rin and Emi. She is her own person, and Hisao doesn't interfere with that. There's some pained relations with her father, sure, but the story seems to make it clear that she can handle it in her own way. That conflict may never come to an end, few things in life are resolved with a nice neat bow on top.
The problem with Misha highlights the effect that Shizune has on Hisao, and on an important aspect of her entire path. It really seems like Shizune's path is the only portion of the game where Hisao is more concerned with how he effects others than with how others make him feel. He tends to understand the people around him more clearly, too.

A kind-of unrelated thing; It sounds like everyone interprets Jigoro 's actions as him just being a jerk to everyone. If he treats everyone this way, it would mean that he is the only adult in the game who treats Hisao like an adult. At least in the sense that he doesn't pull any punches just because Hisao is a teenager and in his way fragile. This tirade of abuse is the exact opposite of the pity that most potential Hisaos wanted to avoid in the other paths. 'Victory' in Shizunes path isn't conquering her daddy problems or having some comeback for a man who makes a bunch of mean-spirited but essentially true observations, it's that he makes it through all of that (by a hair, sure) and sort-of takes it to heart (he does write his parents when he gets back to school, which I'm pretty sure he doesn't do at any other time).
I feel that the Shizune-path Hisao is the best possible Hisao in the end, which is why I fooled myself into thinking that it was a resolution to the entire game. The devs spoiled that for me when they said that the paths were just arranged alphabetically in the library

[SirLadette]

Mirromn is right.
I may be Team Lilly, but I love the Shizunebros and I weep for them that their wonderful girl was poorly utilized in her route

I'm not so sure that she was 'underutilized' so much as 'low-key'.
snipped for length

Couldn't agree with you more on Shizune's route. Part of the reason I liked Shizune's so much and felt less than impressed by Hanako, Lilly, and Rin's was that it didn't have the (in my opinion) over the top drama of those routes. Not that I hate drama or dislike the other routes for it, but i'd rather watch a subtle, slice of life romantic comedy over a big dramatic love story any day of the week.

[Royale]

Lilly, without any doubt at all. She's an incredibly kind, understanding, character; where, Shizune? I can't stand her in the slightest. c:

[Megumeru]

Couldn't agree with you more on Shizune's route. Part of the reason I liked Shizune's so much and felt less than impressed by Hanako, Lilly, and Rin's was that it didn't have the (in my opinion) over the top drama of those routes. Not that I hate drama or dislike the other routes for it, but i'd rather watch a subtle, slice of life romantic comedy over a big dramatic love story any day of the week.

Agreed. Well, not many people like slice-of-life stories--I enjoy it since it somewhat reflects real-life situations (with the added humor).

You're not reading because you want to see the girl going all soft and cuddly to the MC--that's following the a-typical romance story logic. You're reading because you want to know the girl, and in most cases you have to fight for that. You need to understand the girl/Shizune before you can actually see the romance and her as a shining character.

Love and romance don't just happen. They're forged through difficult means--understanding your partner is one of them. Because it strikes to me to be more 'real' than most route (followed closely with Rin's), Shizune's route and herself won me over.

If I have to give a rating, I'd go:
1. Shizune
2. Rin (revised, pushed Hanako and Lilly down)
3. Hanako (formerly 2nd)
4. Lilly (formerly 3rd)
5. Emi

I'm not saying Emi's route is bad--it's humorous, light-hearted, enjoyable, interesting in the aspect of dat arse, and sometimes...fluffy. I don't know, I just find it a little too fluffy I guess.
But that is my say.

Lilly, without any doubt at all. She's an incredibly kind, understanding, character; where, Shizune? I can't stand her in the slightest. c:

Well, reread the debate/argument that has been going on around here and around the forums. Might not change your mind but hey, give it a shot.

Oh and welcome to the forums! WAHAHAHA~!

[metalangel]

You're not reading because you want to see the girl going all soft and cuddly to the MC--that's following the a-typical romance story logic. You're reading because you want to know the girl, and in most cases you have to fight for that.
I'm not saying Emi's route is bad--it's humorous, light-hearted, enjoyable, interesting in the aspect of dat arse, and sometimes...fluffy. I don't know, I just find it a little too fluffy I guess.
But that is my say.

Emi's starts as a really juvenile relationship... it's more like they're 14 than 18 (I know Emi is older) and then it abruptly changes to be super-serious feels. It's jarring.

Shizune by contrast doesn't seem to have the same "facade" thing to put up when she needs it. Granted, her disability/Misha's zany terping do sort of fill this role but that disappears once Hisao can sign.

[Megumeru]

Emi's starts as a really juvenile relationship... it's more like they're 14 than 18 (I know Emi is older) and then it abruptly changes to be super-serious feels. It's jarring.

YES! That describes it really well, and I have to agree on that. Well, she has her reasons to do so but it is what you said--it's jarring.

I should do a reread of her arc again once in awhile and see if I can understand her a little better--though, considering her personality there's almost nothing left to say or to debate about it.

Emi is just...'Emi'.

Now Rin on the other hand, that's another character I think is underrated--second to Shizune.

[Mirrormn]

Now Rin on the other hand, that's another character I think is underrated

That, I can wholeheartedly agree with. Rin seems to lose every poll

[Paul Atreides]

Now Rin on the other hand, that's another character I think is underrated

That, I can wholeheartedly agree with. Rin seems to lose every poll

Not in the poll of my heart

[ShadeHaven]

Now Rin on the other hand, that's another character I think is underrated

That, I can wholeheartedly agree with. Rin seems to lose every poll

Didn't Rin spawn the whole idea of KS? She doesn't get enough credit.

[Mysterious Stranger]

I'm not saying Emi's route is bad--it's humorous, light-hearted, enjoyable, interesting in the aspect of dat arse, and sometimes...fluffy. I don't know, I just find it a little too fluffy I guess.
But that is my say.

Emi's starts as a really juvenile relationship... it's more like they're 14 than 18 (I know Emi is older) and then it abruptly changes to be super-serious feels. It's jarring.

I'd completely agree that Emi's arc is the fluffiest of them all, but I never felt jarred when it transitioned from the lightheartedness to the serious feels, simply because I think it was very adequately foreshadowed. As early as Track Meeting you're clued into the fact that something's wrong.

[Murkglow]

I feel that the Shizune-path Hisao is the best possible Hisao in the end

Is he really that much better at the end of Shizune's then he was at the end of Emi's or Lilly's? In all three he knows what path he wants to take in life (Science Teacher) and depending on how you define "best" each path has something to offer. Emi's Hisao will probably live the longest, fullest life, not just because of the exercise but he seems to take to heart the message "Don't give up on yourself". He also spends alot more time with Mutou in the Science Club which probably helps his future a fair bit. Lilly's Hisao has really learned to appreciate what he has especially after the second hospital stay and he easily has the most solid relationship/partner moving forward (along with one who will help/support his goals in life seeing as she also wants to be a teacher and they are going through it together).

Hanako and Rin's paths don't compare in the same way but to be fair both end well before Shizune's (in timeline) so Hisao doesn't have nearly as long to "grow" (though he still does). After all Hanako's path is almost entirely about Hisao realizing how he effects/treats others, specifically Hanako (for good or bad) while Rin's Hisao has gone through the most trying experiences of the lot and learned to accept that he can't have things just as he wants them (which is an important lesson).

[SirLadette]

Now Rin on the other hand, that's another character I think is underrated

That, I can wholeheartedly agree with. Rin seems to lose every poll

I blame her route for the mixed feelings people have for Rin.

I didn't particularly like her as a character the first time through because it felt like I was constantly having to wade through purple prose and I had to force myself to get through her route. I liked her a lot more when I started mentally filtering the filler and focusing on Rin instead of the writing. I like Rin, but I don't like that I have the skip button on for 60% of her route.

I get the feeling the author of Rin's route was a fan of T.S. Eliot, damned modernism.

[WorldlyWiseman]

I feel that the Shizune-path Hisao is the best possible Hisao in the end

Is he really that much better at the end of Shizune's then he was at the end of Emi's or Lilly's? In all three he knows what path he wants to take in life (Science Teacher) and depending on how you define "best" each path has something to offer. Emi's Hisao will probably live the longest, fullest life, not just because of the exercise but he seems to take to heart the message "Don't give up on yourself". He also spends a lot more time with Mutou in the Science Club which probably helps his future a fair bit. Lilly's Hisao has really learned to appreciate what he has especially after the second hospital stay and he easily has the most solid relationship/partner moving forward (along with one who will help/support his goals in life seeing as she also wants to be a teacher and they are going through it together).

Hanako and Rin's paths don't compare in the same way but to be fair both end well before Shizune's (in timeline) so Hisao doesn't have nearly as long to "grow" (though he still does). After all Hanako's path is almost entirely about Hisao realizing how he effects/treats others, specifically Hanako (for good or bad) while Rin's Hisao has gone through the most trying experiences of the lot and learned to accept that he can't have things just as he wants them (which is an important lesson).

There are elements of his self-improvement in several of the other paths. The biggest difference is that in Shizune's path Hisao arrives at these conclusions on his own, so they feel more concrete to me. Your point about all of the other paths ending much earlier is a good one. There's no telling how much further Hisao will develop as a person after the credits roll in, say, Emi and Hanako's paths.
As for Hisao being more mature and less selfish, I have trouble buying your stance on Emi and Lilly's paths. I'm just going to put this in one big spoiler block;

-There's really no reason Hisao can't begin exercising at a later point in any of the paths. For Shizune!Hisao, it would probably take maybe another incident. If he's still with Shizune at that point, she would likely straight-up order him to, but he seems capable of making that decision on his own.

-"Don't give up on yourself" gets wrapped up by the end of Shizune's Act 1 end scene. She's just more efficient with her words.

-The Emi and Hanako paths felt like they were more about communication then they were about Hisao's trust. Maybe I just can't see it because I'm a really live-and-let-live kind of guy. It takes the entire path for Emi to open up, and I'm left wondering why Hisao is pushing so hard for her to talk about something so deeply traumatic after knowing her for, what, a month? Hanako, on the other hand, we the audience receive next to no information about her as a person outside of all of her problems. When Hisao finally gets her to talk, it's about a very problematic part of her life. We don't even get any implication that he tries to talk about anything else (I don't think. I would welcome evidence to the contrary). The fight for Hanako!Hisao is against himself, and it's iffy that he learns anything lasting from it based on what happens in the end. That might be an unfair analysis, due to my worldview and how much could happen off-camera and out-of-text.

-The end of Lilly's path has always left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth, even if it is the most riveting and dramatically well-done of the bunch. When Hisao goes into a life-threatening dead sprint across the city to tell her that she's made him feel guilty...why couldn't this conversation have taken place over the phone at a later point? Hasn't Hisao considered that it might be important to Lilly to spend some time with the family she never really got to know? Why should she, after she's spent weeks bracing herself to travel across the globe for possibly the last time, accept Hisao's offer to build a future in Japan out of anything but guilt and emotional confusion?

-Hisao's feelings about being a teacher are a bit more vague in the other paths. The science club experience points him in a very general direction (he would likely go to university for physics and likely realize that he wants to be a teacher while there). The scene where he helps Misha out (I think it's Misha, it's a bit fuzzy right now) gives him a sense that he enjoys helping people realize things. It's a start and it's obvious how that would lead into teaching. Shizune!Hisao ends with a definite motivation for becoming a teacher. It sounds like a cliche, but having gotten to know a teacher or two, I feel that a teacher's role is more motivational and persuasive than it is about being an authoritative mentor figure. It's clear that this is more of an opinion than anything and I will concede that each possible Hisao (except maybe for Rin!Hisao) will probably become a science teacher.