Is it just me, or is Hanako better off... [Hanako Spoilers]

[WiskersThCatfish]

Heya! I'm another dude who made an account to reply to this thread. I skimmed a lot of it, and I found a lot of thoughtful ideas that really opened up my head to the way the story played, but in general I still agree with the OP. to get away from the psychological analysis of the characters I actually think the dissatisfying side of Hanako's story lay in the way it was scripted. It was stated by somebody here that the ending was a good close to the conflict, and I completely disagree. The conflict in Hanako's story plodded around in circles, even using the same basic concept more the a few times (I can't be the only one who noticed Hisao's overuse of "I thought that would have brought us closer together, but it only seems to have driven us apart!"). I felt like Hanako's whole story was just kind of a museum or a side-show, a series of displays of her behavior laid out before the clutch park scene at the end.

Stemming back to the OP's topic though, the main reason I was excited to play Hanako's story was because of how dynamic of a character she seemed to be in the background of Lilly's story. While she remains very round in her story, both she and Hisao are very static, and after coming to really like Hanako both as a character and a person I felt like the way her writer treated her didn't do her justice.

[Guest Poster]

The conflict in Hanako's story plodded around in circles

Wasn't that kind of the point though?

At first, Hisao has to walk on eggshells around Hanako, but near the end of Act 1 she starts being a little less tense around him and he becomes her second friend. Act 2 is mostly the two getting more comfortable around each other and by the start of Act 3, Hisao even admits to Miki he likes Hanako in that special way. You'd think at this point the story would unfold as many VNs involving shy characters do, with Hisao confessing to Hanako and slowly helping her get out of her shell through the power of love. (at that point Hisao still believes Hanako is merely just shy) But Miki warns that Hanako has "issues" and that's when Hisao starts having his first White Knight thoughts. Then along comes the panic attack, Hisao realizes Hanako's issues are far deeper than mere shyness and he ends up friend-zoning her.

There's many scenes where Hisao and Hanako seem to connect and had it not been for Hanako's panic episode, those scenes might have caused their relationship to develop further on its own. The static nature of their relationship is an artificial condition, and yes, it seems frustrating that despite several nice moments together (birthday party, pool outing, city outing 1 and 2 and chest scar reveal) their relationship remains platonic, but that's what the friend-zone is all about. It doesn't change until Hanako sleeps with Hisao, forcing him to reconsider the nature of his relationship with her.

Something tells me what you're describing was a deliberate thing.

[WiskersThCatfish]

Something tells me what you're describing was a deliberate thing.

It could have very well been deliberate, but compared to the other stories that I've managed to finish, it was just the most disappointing. To site an example, Emi's story had a good sense of movement, and an extremely satisfying conclusion. All of the supporting characters had something integral to add to the plot, little hints that Hisao used to decode Emi's commitment issue. In the end, you could really feel everything culminating in the peak of the conflict, and then gently carrying you off into a happy ending.

All of that is where I think Hanako's circle-shaped story doesn't help itself. It has all of these long points of rest after a quick storm of conflict, making one or both feel like filler. The supporting cast is almost useless, save for Lilly, who's voted off the island part of the way though anyway; most of the other named characters don't bring anything interesting to the table, not even in presenting new conflict or helping Hisao and Hanako to reach a new place in their relationship. The major conflict was perhaps the least inspired thing I've ever read,I mean it was solved by the two sitting down and speaking their minds. That could have happened by accident at any point in the story, but the writer felt the need to draw it out by having Hisao constantly turn away to let his inner monologue carry his thoughts to depressing new lows. And lastly, the conclusion, which happened right after the resolution with no period of rest, felt more like the beginning of something then the end.

It was like they cooked a steak, and then never served it.

And maybe all of that was deliberate too, but you know what? It's whatever. I can't change it, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

[Guest Poster]

I disagree with the notion that the characters speaking their mind could have happened by accident at any point...but I've already elaborated my stance on that earlier in this thread.

Yeah, I think the fact that the ending was simply the beginning of something new (rather than a definite end) was also somewhat deliberate. The game doesn't pretend Hanako's issues are suddenly solved merely by speaking her mind and getting a boyfriend. Suddenly making Hanako experience a near-complete recovery during the ending would be unrealistic, seeing how deep her issues are. The only other option would involve adding at least 2 more acts to her route...which wasn't feasable. So it simply ends the arc with the suggestion that by now having someone who has her back yet still sees her as an equal, her recovery will be a little bit easier.

[WiskersThCatfish]

I don't think it needed more acts, I think the acts that were there just needed their fat trimmed. They could have had Lilly go away in the fist act, the birthday mishaps happen; Lilly comes come back in the second act, near the end of the second act Hisao and Hanako could work past their expression problems and play at dating; in the third act a serious conflict would arise (more serious then not talking to each other, and probably stemming from Hanako's people issues in relation to her and Hisao falling for eachother),after which everyone would learn a valuable lesson, and we'd get to see the touching ending that we deserved.

But you know, maybe I'm just overly critical. Hanako's was the third thread I played, so the expectations I had for her were pretty high.

[Oddball]

I really think the fact that Hisao and Hanako were hanging around each other without much happening was kinda one of the stronger themes of the arc. It might not be one you like, but I don't think trying to make is faster and more exciting would have suited the characters as well.

[Mirrormn]

Agreed. An important aspect of Katawa Shoujo's storytelling methodology is the creation of an ambiance. The apparent lack of motion and plot development in Hanako's route adds to this ambiance, and makes the story more emotionally immersive.

Furthermore, the plot doesn't really go in circles. It moves quite slowly, but always forwards. Every scene gives a little bit more insight into Hanako's mind, shows Hisao and Hanako growing a little bit closer, or develops the inevitable tension between them that forms the final conflict of the story. This is especially evident if you read the route a second time, equipped with a better understanding of the feelings Hanako confesses at the end of the route. You can see in every scene how she is constantly trying to gauge Hisao's interest in her, lead him into situations that would allow him to be explicitly romantic, and deal with her own insecurity and lack of confidence.

[fabio.salvador]

"Mirrorm" is right... Hanako doesn´t have a "date and sex" kind of story. She´s a girl who never had any romantic affair and is affraid to talk to people. What did you expect? That she propose anal sex like Emi does?

Hanako´s the sweetest thing ever invented in the history of videogames...

[Radien]

Guest Poster:

(Didn't quote your post, because I wanted to make a general reply rather than dissect it.)

Hey, your take on the possible internal thoughts and epilogue of Hisao and Hanako is so convincingly positive that I can't find it in my heart to want to prove you wrong. I can see it going that way, and it'd be nice if it did. I still think Hisao's actions were not the best in that situation, but we all make mistakes.

Quite a lot of speculation has gone on in this thread now, and looking back at my original post, it makes sense. Perhaps I asked the wrong question, when I should have asked "were Hisao's actions in the bedroom acceptable, inacceptable, or repulsive?" ...C'est la vie...

Radien, as far as "planning" goes, I think we may be arguing semantics. Your example is a good one, I'd call that a plan already, because there was premeditation. I think Hanako also shyly premeditated about having sex with to Hisao. Perhaps Hisao even felt this intuitively and brought his protection too?

Ha, I'd be happy to argue (or just "discuss") semantics when it comes to this topic, because I was thinking about it at length after I made that post. Sex ed classes (and many organizations) encourage male teenagers and grown adults to carry condoms when the decision might come up, just so it doesn't come down to "do it unprotected or don't do it at all."

I made a decision about how I would react if a certain situation arose. Is that premeditation?... Well, I guess it depends on how you look at it. Personally, I don't like to think of carrying protection as quite so incriminating, because I see it as a responsibility.

On that note... I keep noticing details about the times Hisao is carrying protection. Sometimes he has it, other times he doesn't...but regardless of whether he does, he proves himself to be the King of Boners, who never kicks a girl out of bed (except maaaaaaybe Misha). If he's such a hornball, I wonder why he doesn't always arrive prepared. Is he just a hopeless ditz who doesn't think ahead?... Given, though...it might just be discrepancies between different writers... Who knows?

I agree that Hanako wasn't giving off any sexy vibes, but that would have been even more out of character for her. I think it's exactly because she is shy that she offer sex in such a way. And she certainly doesn't want to be embarassed more by having to discuss her offer, that's why she asks Hisao to be quiet. And Hisao can feel very well that asking for confirmation of chat is already in plain sight would only embarass Hanako even more.

Man, nonverbal communication is complicated. I don't see any reason why this couldn't possibly be the case, but it'd require some pretty careful attention to their described body language.

Anything Hisao felt in arc 3 was more of a bodyguard crush rather than love, not suprising for a 17y guy. In next arc, specifically in her room, he finally figured out that playtime's over. Hard to imagine for me how it is to have fantasies about boning somebody who's basically like a little sister to you.

Japanese hentai explores this idea in excruciating (and uncomfortable) detail. *facepalm*

Heya! I'm another dude who made an account to reply to this thread. I skimmed a lot of it, and I found a lot of thoughtful ideas that really opened up my head to the way the story played, but in general I still agree with the OP. to get away from the psychological analysis of the characters I actually think the dissatisfying side of Hanako's story lay in the way it was scripted. It was stated by somebody here that the ending was a good close to the conflict, and I completely disagree. The conflict in Hanako's story plodded around in circles, even using the same basic concept more the a few times (I can't be the only one who noticed Hisao's overuse of "I thought that would have brought us closer together, but it only seems to have driven us apart!"). I felt like Hanako's whole story was just kind of a museum or a side-show, a series of displays of her behavior laid out before the clutch park scene at the end.

Stemming back to the OP's topic though, the main reason I was excited to play Hanako's story was because of how dynamic of a character she seemed to be in the background of Lilly's story. While she remains very round in her story, both she and Hisao are very static, and after coming to really like Hanako both as a character and a person I felt like the way her writer treated her didn't do her justice.

Hey, it's cool that this thread caught your attention that much. Makes me glad. Welcome! I'm pretty new here too, but not too new to give a warm welcome.

Hmmmm. It is rather unfortunate, but to some extent I do agree with you. I was disappointed because Hanako began as having one of my favorite personalities among the girls, but what they did with it didn't present nearly as much satisfaction and closure.

Y'know what?... I think I have something I could post as a very close comparison, even though it is a webcomic. It is called Questionable Content:

http://questionablecontent.net/

Heck, today's comic (Wednesday, 4/4/12) focuses on the character I wanted to talk about most: Hannelore, a moderately functional obsessive-compulsive who has been slowly facing her crippling anxieties throughout the comic (which is actually NOT all that melodramatic). And she becomes friends with a World of Warcraft gamer-geek girl with a very different variety of reclusive tendencies.

I like both their stories. I like Hanako (the character) for similar reasons, but I didn't enjoy her story nearly as much. But hey, that's just my take...

It's hard to claim a solid stake in the infinite possibilities of the future. But I would like to think that she is better with Hisao because she now has personal validation that she can get a guy to fall for her romantically. Even if their relationship falls apart later, she'll know she can get people to love her romantically.

You have a very valid point. It's very difficult to find love AND avoid ever breaking up with anybody, since the odds of meeting the right person on the first try are not-so-good. So, if we all have to learn lessons the hard way, the best we can hope for is that the promise won't be damaging and harmful.

If Hisao and Hanako failed to continue their relationship, hopefully it would be in a way that Hanako could learn from without regressing.

So i was just wondering if you guys broke the Internet or something.
I mean on the internetz as the post count increase we get closer to porn, sex, and other funny stuff. While this thread is basically started as the discussion of a sex scene and its effects and getting more and more philosophical by the post-count!

Considering this is a forum about a hentai relationship sim, in some ways you could say it makes sense that any topic drift would result in moving AWAY from porny-sex-stuff. And since said game was made by 4chan, and is pretty damn sensitive despite its origins, I suspect Katawa Shoujo itself broke the internet loooong before I started this thread.

But now i wonder... If Hisao would have some way manage to make that night (and following morning) non-awkward, would that mean that they go back to square one? I mean without the imminent crisis, the important stuff would remained inside, well hidden.

Man, I have no idea... a lot of that would depend on the decisions Hanako makes in the privacy of her own mind.

Like I said at the start of this post, though, plenty of other people here have been happy to extrapolate and speculate far into the future of their relationship. Having only played through Hanako's and Lilly's story once each (with just a little bit of save-reloading), I don't think I could do better than they have above. At least, not peering so far into the fictional future.

[Beoran]

Well, one thing I think Hisao doesn't earn to be called is the "king of boners", I think. In almost all of the situations he's in, he's doing what the lady he loves asks him to do, so I can't blame him. Furthermore, in my experience, in Japanese culture being boyfriend and girlfriend implicitly means that you had or are going to have sex. Nowadays, in Japan, if someone ask you to become the other's "koibito" (bf/gf), it means that there will be sex in the (near or distant) future too. So it would actually be weird for Hisao to reject his gf's requests just like that. Hanako is of course a different case but I'll let that rest.

But maybe it would have been more interesting if there had been options to avoid sex in-game and in-story. Like say, a tenderness option where you just hug and kiss them, and sleep together hugging in stead. If that could be made believable somehow.

[Guest Poster]

when I should have asked "were Hisao's actions in the bedroom acceptable, inacceptable, or repulsive?" ...C'est la vie...

Ah well, we're only like 9 pages into the thread. LOL.

Anyway, I think Hisao acting on Hanako's "seduction attempt" wasn't inacceptable. Hanako did give mixed signals; signals that showed she wanted to go through with it and signals she was uncomfortable. Both signals turned out to be true but in order to figure that out, you'd have to know Hanako's intentions beforehand. What makes it more complex is Hanako being Hanako. If someone like Shizune, Lilly or Emi seemed extremely uncomfortable you'd be tempted to immediately sound the mental alarm, but because skittishness is pretty much Hanako's default mood, even when she's not naked, it's very hard to determine how much of it is just Hanako's usual awkwardness and how much of it might be something else... But given how sudden he's trust into a situation where the good and the bad thing to do seem very ambigious (heck, what he did ended up being the right thing to do in the long run even though it didn't feel like it), I don't think Hisao should be blamed too much.

Ha, I'd be happy to argue (or just "discuss") semantics when it comes to this topic, because I was thinking about it at length after I made that post. Sex ed classes (and many organizations) encourage male teenagers and grown adults to carry condoms when the decision might come up, just so it doesn't come down to "do it unprotected or don't do it at all."

How about this theory? At the start of Act 3, Miki gets Hisao to admit he likes Hanako...as in that special sort of "like". Hisao kinda blows off Miki's suggestion that Hanako has issues deeper than mere shyness at that point. Some time passes during which he visits the city together with Lilly to shop for Hanako's upcoming birthday. Shortly after, Hanako has that panic attack in class and after he and Lilly visit her in her room, Hisao tells himself that trying to take their relationship to the next level would feel wrong with her being in such a fragile state. That statement there pretty much indicates Hisao had been planning to confess to Hanako and if that panic attack hadn't taken place, he might have followed through with it. So it's not really unreasonable to assume Hisao picked up that condom (either in the city or in town) around that time just in case Hanako'd accept his confession and they'd start going out. He didn't know at that time yet that he'd end up friendzoning Hanako. When he and Hanako spent the night together, he still had that rubber in his wallet...it was only a week or 2 old at most at that time.

[Beoran]

Guest Poster, you hit the nail squarely on the head. I am in full agreement with your ideas.

I only can add that if Hisao hoped to become Hanako's koibito(boyfriend) he would have certainly bough the condom because to him (being Japanese) such a relationship would mean that he'd expect there to be some sex at some point. And I think Hanako probably even felt before her panic attack that Hisao was perhaps going to ask her to be his girlfriend, so... I guess that's why she did somethng radical to break out of the friend zone after the attack.

[Guest Poster]

And I think Hanako probably even felt before her panic attack that Hisao was perhaps going to ask her to be his girlfriend, so... I guess that's why she did somethng radical to break out of the friend zone after the attack.

I'm not exactly in agreement with that part. Given Hanako's low self-esteem, I don't think she'd be quick to assume someone liked her enough to want a relationship with her. I mean, even after they slept together, Hanako still concluded Hisao couldn't see her in a romantic way until Hisao blurted out his confession. What Hanako did was purely because she couldn't stand the idea of losing the person with whom she felt such a special connection to another woman before she at least made sure he really couldn't think of her as anything other than child to look out for.

[WiskersThCatfish]

Agreed. An important aspect of Katawa Shoujo's storytelling methodology is the creation of an ambiance. The apparent lack of motion and plot development in Hanako's route adds to this ambiance, and makes the story more emotionally immersive.

Furthermore, the plot doesn't really go in circles. It moves quite slowly, but always forwards. Every scene gives a little bit more insight into Hanako's mind, shows Hisao and Hanako growing a little bit closer, or develops the inevitable tension between them that forms the final conflict of the story. This is especially evident if you read the route a second time, equipped with a better understanding of the feelings Hanako confesses at the end of the route. You can see in every scene how she is constantly trying to gauge Hisao's interest in her, lead him into situations that would allow him to be explicitly romantic, and deal with her own insecurity and lack of confidence.

I still really disagree, but I don't want to be the one guy in here who starts off every single reply by saying that. I don't have much else to say if I don't argue though, so I guess I'll keep discussing.

You bring up a point of immersion, and I completely agree with you, above anything else KS is about feeling what the characters feel. In Hanako's story line though, I still can't come to be immersed because of how often I wanted Hisao to act differently. The fact that (and sorry to use this point over and over) the writer had Hisao react in a cookie cutter way to nearly every situation without learning his lesson until the resolution was frustrating. The fact that I can feel the artificial foundations of the entire conflict completely removes my disbelief from suspension.

But you also raise a really good point by saying I should play it again; you seem to be a bit more versed in the workings of the plot then I, so maybe it is a matter of learning to love it by letting it's intricacies sink in.

Hanako´s the sweetest thing ever invented in the history of videogames...

See, I think you're taking my animosity in the wrong way. I have nothing against Hanako, and actually I think she's one of the most interesting and versatile characters in the entire game. Out of the five I think she's the most lovely fit for Hisao, and she's also most congruent to the kind of girl that I am personally attracted to. I don't want them to change HER. I'm just expressing my dissatisfaction with how the writers treated her story.

[megiddo]

She seduced and raped hisao. She got naked and exposed herself to Hisao without his consent. Hisao was under pressure to live up to social expectations and did not feel entirely comfortable going through with Hanako's plan. Just because someone doesn't say no doesn't mean it's ok. Hisao was raped.