Hanako bad ending discussion

[axlryder]

The problem with your argument is that you're implying the seemingly inherent subjectivity of the threshold of what one might deem excessive based on this situation is somehow limiting an objective conclusion from being drawn about whether or not the actions she took were excessive. That's false, as we can clearly see that her actions were dangerous for someone in Hisao's condition and Hisao himself was posing no real physical danger to Hanako (nor would such an extreme reaction likely have been necessary to remove his presence). One doesn't need units of measure to objectively say "yeah, you clearly used too much flour" if they're even vaguely familiar with the recipe.

You are correct to imply that I can not, objectively, say exactly how overboard Hanako went, but thankfully my ability to impartially say "her actions went overboard" is not contingent on that.

It's reasonable to expect the actions she took though, as she was basically acting in fight or flight mode. Cornered in her sanctuary by Hiao, she couldn't run, so she got hostile.

bro, we know, it's expected of her character. That was never the point.

[Tilting Clock]

You have constructed a mighty fine straw argument there, sir. I shall turn my attentions elsewhere and advise others to do the same.

[axlryder]

I really don't think it's necessary to treat Hisao with kiddie gloves here. The guy wouldn't appreciate you for that. He has been on medication for some time, so he doesn't get heart attacks merely from emotional stress. He's portrayed as being able to deal with the various emotional bumpy rides in other routes and can even consistently have sex without too much risk. The only times he consistently gets worse is when he gets lax with his medication. I think he can handle five lines of harsh venting just fine. Now if Hanako had physically attacked Hisao, THAT would have put him at a genuine risk, since he still deals badly with blows to the chest even from someone who's not particularly atlethic. But Hanako didn't attack him, nor did she threaten to and her outburst ended the moment Hisao left the room. The worst he had to deal with was a hysterical "I hate you". That having to feel like shit afterwards.

I also agree with Daitengu. Flight or fight, and she wouldn't have fled from her own room in her nightgown and in the emotional state she was in. Hisao's interaction with Hanako in that scene being calm and consoling wasn't much of a consolation when every word made Hanako feel worse and worse. Hanako's attempts to make Hisao leave her alone may been feeble, but anyone knowing her would realize that even those kinds of reactions take effort from her and SHOULD be taken seriously and anyone expecting her to suddenly develop an assertiveness she doesn't even possess on her best days has very unrealistic expectations. Taking Hisao's insistence to protect her from herself against her own wishes in mind and Hanako's turmoiled emotional state, what happened in Misstep was pretty much the most realistic outcome we could expect. You could argue the characters shouldn't be the way they are, but that's just getting into opinions.

Oh, and Hisao usually IS pretty perceptive, but he does admit near the end of the good end most things he assumed about Hanako were wrong and he wasn't the only one. Lilly, who's also fairly perceptive, was also wrong about several things. Hanako's so closed-off she's not easy to figure out.

Throwing a few balls proved too much strain on his heart. He almost died having sex. The situation was EXTREMELY shocking for him, inevitably result in a rapid increase in heart rate to rival an sort of physical activity. This could have killed him. Such a risk wasn't necessary to remove him from her room (or even necessary at all, given he wasn't posing any physical threat) . Thus excessive. Look at it this way: if the author had shown him to struggle with his heart in this scenario, would you have really called BS?

We also get that Hisao should have picked up sooner, that it was nearly inevitable that Hanako would react the way she did and that we shouldn't really judge her for doing so, and that this was a fairly realistic scenario. None of those things were ever called into question, nor was that the point. I've said it, like, a billion times now.

[axlryder]

You have constructed a mighty fine straw argument there, sir. I shall turn my attentions elsewhere and advise others to do the same.

To be honest, bro, this wasn't even close to the original intent of my initial post. This is the most ungodly awful tangent I've even been on. I regret pursuing it, and wouldn't mind if it just died. That's said, I have yet to find reason to question the soundness of my argument, nor do I find my assessment of your rebuttal to be a straw man fallacy. Have a nice day.

[megiddo]

Good god, I don't care whether or not her reaction was excessive. I don't care. What I care about is properly using the terms 'objectively' and 'subjectively'. Please don't casually slip these words into your statements without knowing how to properly use them. It's like when people slip 'literally' behind their statements. It just drives me nuts.

"The sun is very hot" is a subjective statement.
"The temperature at the sun's core is 15.71 million Kelvin [NASA.gov]" is an objective statement.

Whether or not Hanako's reaction was excessive will always be a subjective call. Who cares if she put Hisao in danger? I don't. She could have waved a gun at him and even shot him, but I still would not call her reaction objectively excessive. Subjectively excessive? Sure, but never objectively excessive.

[Guest Poster]

The notion of her outburst putting Hisao in danger doesn't really fit in well with how his heart behaves in the rest of the game. The only time his heart acted up due to mere emotion (rather than messing up his medication, a blow to the chest or physically overexterting himself) was at the very beginning before he got his surgery and started taking his meds. Anxiety never triggered it anywhere else.

[axlryder]

The notion of her outburst putting Hisao in danger doesn't really fit in well with how his heart behaves in the rest of the game. The only time his heart acted up due to mere emotion (rather than messing up his medication, a blow to the chest or physically overexterting himself) was at the very beginning before he got his surgery and started taking his meds. Anxiety never triggered it anywhere else.

Yet there is no point in which he actually expressed feelings of fear either, other than this point. Fear does crazy things to your heart, and what's more, there was the factor of shock, something else he didn't really experience at this level throughout the game. The combination of fear and shock can spike your heart rate very fast, potentially triggering a negative effect in Hisao not normally brought on by emotion. What's more, the sheer fact that the potentiality for such an action to result in a heart attack means that the response itself was unnecessarily abrasive, thus excessive. Unless you can say with certainty that there's no way such an extreme shock could cause his arrhythmia to act up, then my point still stands.

[Nekken]

Come to think of it, does Hanako ever actually see Hisao's heart condition act up during her path? Certainly she knows about his condition, but does she have any reason to think that blowing up at him might cause problems? Do we as the players, even? No one at Yamaku, including Hisao, likes to be treated like a porcelain doll without good reason, nor for it to be assumed that they need such treatment, and Hanako knows this from her own experience.

[Snow_Storm]

Come to think of it, does Hanako ever actually see Hisao's heart condition act up during her path? Certainly she knows about his condition, but does she have any reason to think that blowing up at him might cause problems? Do we as the players, even? No one at Yamaku, including Hisao, likes to be treated like a porcelain doll without good reason, nor for it to be assumed that they need such treatment, and Hanako knows this from her own experience.

He started to have heart problems right after he had sex with Hanako in the good ending but it was very minor but that's just about it. Everything else in the path, including the bad ending, he doesn't start to have problems.

[axlryder]

Come to think of it, does Hanako ever actually see Hisao's heart condition act up during her path? Certainly she knows about his condition, but does she have any reason to think that blowing up at him might cause problems? Do we as the players, even? No one at Yamaku, including Hisao, likes to be treated like a porcelain doll without good reason, nor for it to be assumed that they need such treatment, and Hanako knows this from her own experience.

It doesn't really matter if she has personally any reason to think that blowing up at him might cause a problem at that point in the story, as that isn't directly related to the reality of his condition. Though, for the record, I'm not sure she really does have reason to consider it, as I can't recall if he told her about the confession incident or when he told her if he did. This isn't really about her though. How people "like" to be treated is also beside the point. Now in terms of reasons for us to be concerned, first of all aside from the sex, he damn near had a heart attack just walking around the city in heat. What's more, shock and fear has been known to cause issues in those with severe heart conditions, even fatal heart attacks. Even if this isn't likely to happen, if the I go up to a doctor and ask "could scaring the shit out of someone with arrhythmia (whatever obviously serious subtype Hisao has) be dangerous?", and he says "yes", then we have an issue. We also know that Hisao's condition is severe enough to affect his every day life and even light physical activity can trigger it (besides the emi route), so his condition isn't really mild. There's also a difference between treating someone like a china doll and freaking the hell out at them. Like I said earlier, I've been in situations like Hisao, and the first time I saw someone freak out like that I damn near jumped out of my skin. Those around me felt the exact same way. My was pounding like a jackhammer for a long time after (no doubt because of the huge adrenaline rush). This is a fairly common response to that sort of situation. Hisao specifically saying "I was scared" kind of confirms that sentiment. It's not your everyday "oh, dude you scared me". Like I said, it's akin to stressful physical activity (you'll almost certainly be physically exhausted afterwards too) even if it's only for a short period.

[Mirrormn]

For the record, Hanako learns about Hisao's heart condition fairly early in her route. In order to get to Lilly or Hanako's paths, you have to do Mind Your Step in Act 1 and choose "Sorry, I'm not in very good condition", which leads to Hisao admitting his heart problems to Lilly. Then, in Equivalent Exchange in Hanako's route, Hanako decides to tell Hisao about her past, because Lilly told her about Hisao's heart condition the previous night. Thus, she knows about his heart condition throughout the entirety of Acts 3 and 4.

Furthermore, Hanako shows explicit signs of worrying about Hisao's heart on several occasions. For example, in City Rendezvous, Hisao is quite winded from walking to meet Hanako at the café, and when he says "I think I'd die from this heart if I had something like coffee right now," Hanako's response is unexpectedly alarmed, since she thinks there might be some truth to the statement. Similarly, in Whispered Touch, Hanako's concern for Hisao's stamina forces her to ask "Are you... okay...?" right before sex.

So yes, she would have been aware of Hisao's condition during Misstep.