Hanako bad ending discussion

[axlryder]

I saw a couple of "Hanako bad ending" threads a while back, but none that really take this approach so I though it'd warrant a new thread.

Anyway, I just finished playing Hanako's route and went back to get the bad end.

Her bad end frustrated me not because of what happened, but because that was it. That was "the end". I understand this is a visual novel, and thus some kind of finality must be reached at some point due to the inherent limitations of the medium, but I felt like that was an awkward place to end it.

Let me expound. I've been in situations like that. Almost identical to that, in fact. I or someone else said something stupid and somebody flipped out like a crazy person. That said, it doesn't just "end" that way. The other person must respond in some way. Hisao basically just gives up and is like "whatevs, bitch be crazy, i'mma go smoke a blunt with kenji". Fortunately, in real life, when that happens, it doesn't just end that way. How one deals with the misunderstanding and their own emotional reaction can play the biggest role in determining the outcome of a situation.

There are several things that could have happened in that situation and the events that follow it. I think it would have been a good opportunity for the player to give some input to how they would react. In fact, I feel as though a little Hanako rage would have been a good part of the main story line, given people like Hanako almost inevitably get unreasonably angry at some point due to all the pent up emotions. Obviously that's not going to be the case for this game, but I still would have liked to see it.

Thoughts? and how would you all react to the situation with Hanako? Have you been in a similar situation?

For the sake of argument, let's say all the yelling wouldn't have alerted the staff and other students, as it didn't seem to do in this ending itself if you personally would have intended to stick it out through the yelling.

[NoOne3]

Well, there is no real sense in trying to reverse the course of things in the script.
You can try to talk with people about their feelings on this, and their hipotetical reactions in a similar situation, but what Hisao did in this path is done. You shouldn't rewrite the ending of the book, just because you don't like it.

As for the situation itself, there might be some little things I might be interpreting in a different way.
For instance here:

I feel as though a little Hanako rage would have been a good part of the main story line, given people like Hanako almost inevitably get unreasonably angry at some point due to all the pent up emotions.

I don't consider her anger unreasonable. Extend maybe, but the feeling itself was caused by the way she was treated, and in this way it was somewhat justified. She's not a porcelain doll, and she feels being one in the eyes of others.
I like the theory that risen in the topic about her getting better without Hisao's help in Lily path: It said, that she started to associate better with people while Lily was distracted in her own heart affairs, not able to smother her so much.

As for the situation given, of course it shouldn't just end there. A person shouldn't be just left in anger like that, never to be spoken to. It's just in this thread Hisao did turn out at least a miediocre size duche, and left it this way.

[axlryder]

Well, there is no real sense in trying to reverse the course of things in the script.
You can try to talk with people about their feelings on this, and their hipotetical reactions in a similar situation, but what Hisao did in this path is done. You shouldn't rewrite the ending of the book, just because you don't like it.

As for the situation itself, there might be some little things I might be interpreting in a different way.
For instance here:

I feel as though a little Hanako rage would have been a good part of the main story line, given people like Hanako almost inevitably get unreasonably angry at some point due to all the pent up emotions.

I don't consider her anger unreasonable. Extend maybe, but the feeling itself was caused by the way she was treated, and in this way it was somewhat justified. She's not a porcelain doll, and she feels being one in the eyes of others.
I like the theory that risen in the topic about her getting better without Hisao's help in Lily path: It said, that she started to associate better with people while Lily was distracted in her own heart affairs, not able to smother her so much.

As for the situation given, of course it shouldn't just end there. A person shouldn't be just left in anger like that, never to be spoken to. It's just in this thread Hisao did turn out at least a miediocre size duche, and left it this way.

You're misunderstanding the intention of the thread. While I said it would have been nice if there were multiple options after that, the discussion was simply designed to be that. A discussion about people's thoughts on the situation. Not a retroactive revision of a script. I'm pretty sure I expressed the story is what it is now in the OP.

Also, the extent of her anger was unwarranted (though given her ability to express herself and Hisao's unabashed stupidity, totally expected), the anger itself being totally understandable in that particular situation. Although, when I said unreasonable, I meant more so in situations where anger really isn't warranted. Which is why I think it would have been good to include it in the script, because it can be near unavoidable at times.

Also, I agree, no one should just be left to their anger like that. Space, for some people, is necessary though. Depending on how the situation played out, I'd probably have stuck around.

[Oddball]

I think it's more than just being yelled at that drives Hisao away for good there. Basically at this point he realizes that everything he thought he knew about her is wrong. It's one thing to make up with a friend that you get into an argument with, but making up with a person when you really don't know who they are is another.

[Dawnstorm]

Well, I can buy the ending, but I do have a problem with the last sentence. It's terribly vague, something along the lines of "Somehow I knew more than just our [conversation] had come to an end". That wouldn't be such a big deal, if the style of the VN wasn't extremely detailed inner thoughts. The only way to make sense of that is that Hisao is stunned and can't think, but it's too articulate for that. The result is that I can't help but read it as authorial intrusion for the sake of ending that path. The line provides me with no sort of closure - it feels like a cop out. No other ending in the entire game had that effect on me.

[Paddy]

It didn't seem this particular path was as, erm, written to consider the long-term effects of whatever choices you made. Maybe they simply didn't have enough time. But it would have been nice to see more than just that quick month or two, as I'm sure Hisao and Hanako's relationship would still have had its fair share of difficulty in it even after this rage (or breaking the walls down). I would have liked to come along for the ride after all that.

You make a good point, axl, and not just for the very bad ending. However, I think that's going to be left to the fanfic writers. Only God and the authors know why they left it like that.

Actually, a month or two (I think that was the length of time this story covers) seems rather too short an amount of time for Hanako to have opened up so widely to Hisao (or to have wanted to), considering how little Lilly knows about her even though she's been her friend for a year.

[Mirrormn]

The result is that I can't help but read it as authorial intrusion for the sake of ending that path. The line provides me with no sort of closure - it feels like a cop out. No other ending in the entire game had that effect on me.

Huh. I felt like pretty much every bad and neutral ending had the same sort of authorial intrusion. I also don't think it's really a cop out, since there's really no other way to provide finality to a bad ending without having one of the characters die or move away or something. Pretty much every misunderstanding is theoretically resolvable, every decision reversible, so the only way to ensure that a bad ending "stays bad" is through an such authorial intrusion that assures the reader that no reconciliation ever takes place in the future.

[Brogurt]

I like her bad end because she doesn't get raped in it. The same goes for her neutral end, of course, but there's no catharsis in it, only staticity.

[Mirrormn]

If you think Hanako got raped in her good ending, you should probably re-read it more closely. Specifically the parts where she nods her consent right before sex with Hisao, and where she later admits that having sex with Hisao was an intentional premeditated decision on her part (although based on flawed reasoning).

[Guest Poster]

She doesn't get raped in any route, but that's stuff for another discussion...or maybe past discussion, can't recall exactly.

Anyway, the bad endings (except Kenji's end obviously) obviously aren't "the end of all", but most likely the end of the relationships. Same is true for Hanako's bad end.

First of all, Hanako's outburst wasn't "crazy" or unreasonable. It was sudden and uncharacteristic, but justified. Hisao really WAS out of line there in many, many ways. And not just because of the lame skin joke (she's a burn victim Nakai, you used to be more concious of landmines) or lame date joke. (she loves you, she wants a real date, not a pity date) But because of the generally patronizing attitude. Unintended, but nevertheless completely out of control. The fact that Hanako was in a really bad place emotionally at that time didn't help things. She probably wouldn't have snapped that way if she wasn't.

Sure, fights aren't always the end of a friendship/relationship (most of the time they aren't), but there's a few factors in the bad end that make the result being the end of their relationship fairly believable:

1) It wasn't so much the outburst itself that killed the relationship. By that time, the relationship was ALREADY doomed because Hisao's codependant obsession with Hanako's condition spiralled out of control, even Lilly wasn't able to revert it anymore and Hanako's outburst was the natural result of that.
2) Hisao isn't particularly confident in this path and is using Hanako's issues as a distraction for his own lack of direction. His mindset: "I may not know what to do after Yamaku nor have I sorted out my own issues, but at least I'm taking care of Hanako." Imagine somewhat with that mindset being confronted with just how badly he messed up. I doubt he'd have the courage to try and approach her after that.
3) Hanako herself may feel guilty about her outburst later (as justified as it was) and be unable to approach Hisao or even Lilly. She already has a terribly difficult time approaching others...
4) Strong relationships can handle fights, but the relationship between Hisao and Hanako was already a bit fragile, with neither of them really understanding the other.
5) Most importantly, Hanako doesn't easily let people in. Miki suggests classmates tried to approach Hanako in the past, only to hit that wall she has around herself. She let Hisao in because she felt he was different from most people. Like a kindred spirit. Him getting closer to Hanako was an exception, not a rule. But by her bad end, she certainly doesn't see him like that anymore, so I doubt she'd open up to him again.

Because of the bullying and rejection she experienced before Yamaku, Hanako has a very cynical view of friendship. In her good end, she admits she wanted to have faith in Lilly and Hisao as friends and tried to change this mindset, but was never able to trust them completely. In the good end, their relationship faces a crisis that they can mend because they both desire to be with the other and want to go the extra mile in order to salvage things including admitting some very painful truths. It was a close call, but they succeeded. The crisis in the bad end lacks that advantage, Hanako's no longer in doubt whether Hisao can be persuaded to see her as a romantic interest or not nor has Hisao started the process of curbing his white knighting himself. I don't think a park scene would come out of Hanako's outburst.

It's not the end of the world...Hanako's a resilient girl, but Hisao changing from a friend and crush into just another example of why other people were no good would no doubt add an extra layer of cynicism to Hanako's views about human relationships. I certainly don't think she'd give Hisao a chance to repair things, nor do I think Hisao would be up to it.

[Brogurt]

She did not want to do those things, and it was not premeditated. Hisao was the one who imitated everything save going to her room in the first place, including but not limited to: unzipping, the condom, and the groping.

He wanted pretty badly to get his rocks off, so when he started making advances, she was faced with the choice to reject them, causing him to see her as someone that was a few steps short of being a full person (a potential lover, so to speak), or she could accept them, and possibly get him to love her.

When she says "if I let you do that" in the park scene, she's not referring to anything premeditated. She's referring to the spur-of-the-moment decision where she tries to make the best of a bad situation.

It surprises me how much people love to glorify the ending to Hanako's path. It's about a guy who friendzones a girl, takes advantage of her when she's most vulnerable, and then takes responsibility for his actions. Even in the ending, he has to change his wording multiple times during the "confession", because he fundamentally does not care about her, and only when the guilt sets in does he want to make her feel better.

Pic related: the reason she brought him to her room.

checkmate.jpg (254.41 KiB) Viewed 9501 times

But I'd like to keep things focused on why the bad end is the best rather than why the good end is the worst, if you'd so kindly oblige.


EDIT: I guess I forgot my thesis.

When a woman being forcibly violated decides that it's for the best to stop resisting, does it stop being rape? Note that the aforementioned resistance is not always the same; a more aggressive woman is not identical to a more submissive one.

[Snow_Storm]

lol why does everyone thinks Hisao raped the lass in her good ending? But that's another story.

Anyway, her anger and hatred was reasonable. I mean shit, she watched her parents getting kill in a house fire, she got burn scars all around her body, her self-esteem is lower than the dirt under the dirt, she got bullied for her looks and had no friends in the orphanage, her only friend's a blind girl because the blind girl can't judge Hanako for her looks and everyone takes pity on her for her past. To top it all off, the guy she had a crush on was treating her like a broken bird and was being an asshole. Of course she would snap and go beserk.

[Dawnstorm]

Huh. I felt like pretty much every bad and neutral ending had the same sort of authorial intrusion.

Interesting. I'd have do a line-by-line to see what's up with that. The Hanako bad end had me stare at the screen and look at that sentence, going "What?" As I said, none of the others gave me a narrativus interruptus.

I also don't think it's really a cop out, since there's really no other way to provide finality to a bad ending without having one of the characters die or move away or something. Pretty much every misunderstanding is theoretically resolvable, every decision reversible, so the only way to ensure that a bad ending "stays bad" is through an such authorial intrusion that assures the reader that no reconciliation ever takes place in the future.

Well, I might agree to that, since you see no difference in the endings. For me, especially in Rin's rain-ending and Emi's bad ending, the final lines flowed naturally from the phrasing of the scene and reflect the despair of the moment. I didn't get that sense in Hanako's bad end. (I'm talking about my reading experience, here, really, not so much the text. I wonder if some close reading exercise would be interesting? A comparative reading of the endings?)

[Oddball]

lol why does everyone thinks Hisao raped the lass in her good ending?

Some people have no reading compression skills, feel that Hanako must be protected from everything, or just plain don't like Hisao.

Even in the ending, he has to change his wording multiple times during the "confession", because he fundamentally does not care about her, and only when the guilt sets in does he want to make her feel better.

I think you may have been playing some different version of the game than everybody else if you can watch the endings and still say he didn't care for her.

When a woman being forcibly violated decides that it's for the best to stop resisting, does it stop being rape?

It doesn't, and if she was being forcibly violated, you might have a point, but she wasn't. Being apprehensive about something isn't the same thing as being forced into doing something.

[Titus]

. She's not a porcelain doll, and she feels being one in the eyes of others.

She never gives anyone reason to believe otherwise.

I've heard the explanations that, merely being in public and talking to other people is already a titanic effort for Hanako and that makes her strong. But still, no one knows that, she never gives anyone a reason to believe that she isn't made of glass.