Is it just me, or is Hanako better off... [Hanako Spoilers]

[Mirrormn]

Paddy, I think your argument is becoming so esoteric that it's losing its relevance to the actual topic at hand. You make a reasonable case that discipline and commitment can be beneficial, but you can't simply take the inversion of that argument and conclude that a lack of commitment is necessarily bad, let alone as morally reprehensible and unthinkable as you consider it (and that's not even getting in to the lack of necessity in connecting sex and love in the first place).

[Oddball]

Paddy, I'm going to ask you one simple question and I want you to answer it in as few words as possible, and I want those words to be your own. Don't quote other people, don't say what other people have told you to say.

Here's the question.

Do all rules and regulations need to be followed by every person in ever situation without exception?

Keep it brief, if you please.

[Paddy]

Paddy, I'm going to ask you one simple question and I want you to answer it in as few words as possible, and I want those words to be your own. Don't quote other people, don't say what other people have told you to say.

Here's the question.

Do all rules and regulations need to be followed by every person in ever situation without exception?

Keep it brief, if you please.

They only need to follow those rules which God has ordained everyone to follow.

Long version:

If they wish to be happy, they only need to follow those rules which God has ordained everyone to follow because God, by definition, knows infinitely more than we do what is good for us.

That's it.

[Mirrormn]

I don't feel like I can further contribute to this thread without it becoming an atheism vs. theism debate. So I will go to bed instead.

[Oddball]

And with the "my religion is best for everyone" comment, I think we've taken this conversation as far as it can go.



... So, how about Hanako? Doesn't she just wear the cutest little outfits?

[Paddy]

I don't feel like I can further contribute to this thread without it becoming an atheism vs. theism debate. So I will go to bed instead.

I think this conversation is over with, too. To get any further, I'd probably have to prove the existence of God. No one seems particularly up to that. And this isn't the right forum for that, anyway.

Besides, others have already done that. Click the link at the bottom of my sig if you're interested. Otherwise, I've nothing further to say.

Cheque, please.

[Radien]

It's always worth it...
...to go after bacon!

...Oh god... now every time I see that stupid Carl's Jr. commercial about marrying bacon, I'm going to think of Hanako. I hate you.

Radien, well, I agree she has problems with social interaction, and that's exactly why I think it would be strange for her to just even show her body like that, nevermind have sex on the spur of the moment. I think people like that would need a few days or at least hours to gather the courage to do that. That is why I think she must have planned it. Not like Shizune would, with a clever hidden seven step plan she like most likely set into motion to be able to nail Hisao in that chair. With Hanako it would be a mere a shy yet loving notion of "Hey... maybe if I show him myself... and if we then do THAT... then he might see I'm here for him to...", as a reaction to Hisao showing his scar. Not much of a plan, but still a plan. Much like how many people plan to have/offer/ask for sex.

I can believe she entertained the possibility. I just don't think she planned on it.

To make... ahem... a personal comparison: once I was keeping the company of a particular lady, and I suspected she might want to be a bit more intimate. So I brought protection. That wasn't the same as a foregone conclusion.

Perhaps that isn't the best comparison, because Hanako was reluctant. But she's obviously fairly accustomed to being unable to predict where a situation will lead.

I agree with you on the depth of KS's characters. They have their own motives, and thats' why I interpret the stories taking that into consideration.

As for your last point, I tried to explicitly avoid double standards. Notice I used "person" in my description. And and it's more than just taking of your top, it's also the whole situation where you taking someone into a private bedroom, partially undress and say nothing to dispel any sexual notions. Actions get their meanings in context. If Hanako was taking off her top at the beach, then she'd probably want to sunbathe or ask Hisao to put on her swimming costume/ sun lotion, and if it was in the bathroom, then she'd probably want Hisao to wash her back.

Well, thank you for trying to avoid double standards. At this point I'm going to have to say that I don't know; I've never been in a situation such as that. Many of the social situations presented in KS are ones that many of us haven't experienced; that ends up being a large point of the game, right?... Facing and overcoming the challenges of disabilities, and all that...

But if Hisao took Hanako to his room, closed door and windows and took off his top and his pants leaving on only socks and briefs without saying anything to dispel the notions, it would be just as much as an offer to have/asking for sex.

I disagree, but not vehemently. So much relies on context. In this case I though Hanako wasn't exactly begging for it, or giving off that vibe. But it's hard to make assertions, given we don't have any narrative access to her internal monologue.

Of course, sex must be consensual, but consent doesn't mean both parties have to sign a release form or explicitly state it in words. People do ask for/ offer / accept to having sex in nonverbal ways, especially *shy* people. And I think that's perfectly fine as long as both partners are able and in good condition to say they don't consent or want to quit after all. What happens in Hanako's story if you pay close attention is a good example of such nonverbal way of asking for and consenting to sex.

True. I can imagine many ways in which nonverbal consent can backfire, but yes, it is pretty common. Asking verbally is a good fallback that I think everyone should consider, but that's just my personal opinion, and I wouldn't go to great lengths to cause anyone to think the same.

After winning the hanako route...

(etc.)

I don't have any specific responses, but I read your whole post and I think your thoughts about what happened are just as valid as any I've read. The only problem with discussing the outcome of a fictional story is that since it's not reality, if the author does something unrealistic, we can't rely on logic to figure out the author's intentions.

I suppose I would totally deserve it if someone said "well, you asked for it!" since I created this entire thread about whether Hanako is happy. But anyway, yeah, I dunno... perhaps she is. She was characterized as being extremely evasive under pressure, though, so in either path it's possible she wasn't 100% earnest about how she felt.

Hanako and Hisao sleeping together did a little bit of both. It WAS a gate to a relationship beyond friendship AND it nearly ruined their friendship.

Good point, o nameless one. One would hope it didn't ruin their romantic relationship for later on, but as with any story, we never know for sure what exactly happened after the credits rolled.

(For a sardonic take on this, read the novel version of The Princess Bride and have a look at the "life is imperfect" alternate ending. Actually, just read it anyway; it's a great book. )


...I'm afraid Paddy's thread of replies in this topic has lost me. It hasn't been completely derailed from the topic at hand, not quite, but I'm not capable of reading and writing enough in one sitting to keep up with that line of discussion, even compared to this post. *points to the lines above*

[Beoran]

Paddy, let's just agree to disagree, since I feel we won't get anywhere. To quote Nietzsche a final time: "What should I have to give thee! Let me rather hurry hence lest I take aught away from thee!"

Radien, as far as "planning" goes, I think we may be arguing semantics. Your example is a good one, I'd call that a plan already, because there was premeditation. I think Hanako also shyly premeditated about having sex with to Hisao. Perhaps Hisao even felt this intuitively and brought his protection too?

I agree that Hanako wasn't giving off any sexy vibes, but that would have been even more out of character for her. I think it's exactly because she is shy that she offer sex in such a way. And she certainly doesn't want to be embarassed more by having to discuss her offer, that's why she asks Hisao to be quiet. And Hisao can feel very well that asking for confirmation of chat is already in plain sight would only embarass Hanako even more.

As for happiness, in both acs she makes progress, although she's not out of the woods yet in either. But it seems to me that she makes the biggest step in her own arc.

[kuniqs]

Not being a married man, or knowing much about the history of marriage, I can't say much to rebut your argument - except that it's bollocks. Love as a norm for relationships has existed a lot longer than 50 years. If it didn't, who would have dreamed up such stories as that of Pyramus and Thisbe, or the Tragedy of Othello (which began as a romance), or even Rapunzel (which was written in the 1800s).

Take Victorian era for example: You honestly believe may-december romances typicall for this era like, 12 year old girl marrying a >40y old guy, was doing it from love? That practices from this era like fathers taking their sons to 'public houses' (nomen omen even 12y old girls often served in them, since carrer options for orphans in industrial revolution meant 15h on day factory work or prostitution) as a rite of passage to adulthood was a good practice? Victorian era tends to be overrated on the sexual topic, but nonetheles such things existed back then.
I wouldn't take stories (even as epic as Shakespeare ones) as good historic material. The concept of fiction was not foreign for writers of the past. Imagine historians in 25 century will take today's canons of beuty (skinny models) as a clue what kind of women were on top of men's interest. How wrong they will be, everybody knows.
I was once in Ukraine on, how to say it, marriage marketplace. There were young women from various houses + men seeking a bride, and older women who were acting as marriage arrangers. I stupidly asked one such perfectly paired couple if they are in love, to which she replied "We have all of our life to fall in love with ourselfs now". Note that Ukraine is a deep christian country and, to a point, there was a low divorce rate there.
As a guy who has wife for few years I can tell you - my waifu never liked me forcing christian marriage ideals on ourselfs since she probably felt like Hanako, as a kid who you need to teach. One anegdote: When she got pregnant, she went into extremely irritating mod swings. At one point I started to write about it on a couple forum and as You can imagine, she found out about it. I was persistent, I ducked a lot . Sure I was acting like a dumbass - why not just talk about it? But in no advice I found from those guys or from books was "argue, threaten to leave, have sex, eat something, argue again, cry in our arms, have sex again and pass out from exhaustion, wake up next day and forget about it". Sure, there were many, many better options to fix that, many third options, but You have limited time to stumble upon them. Like that about tuberculosis operation I wrote previously under guest nick. Sometimes You're nailed to the wall and You need to choose between evil or Great evil. Or between 2 equally bad opportunities. Or 2 things that have different pros and cons and no matter what, You will regret choosing one of them and not another.
Hey, on totally unrelated note - once my mother watched a TV show about End Of The World As We Know It, or something about coming of the Antichrist. As she ranted about decadence of modern society and overflow of sex among teens nowadays, I couldn't restrain myself and asked "Would you be better off as a 15 year old bride to some old prick?" and she replied "Yes". Mind You, she ran from home to live on her own when she was 18 something precisely because her family wanted to sell her (okay, marry her) to some rich fella. And she is a wise person.

I won't argue about Chesterton - honestly don't know the lad.

Law is not meant to bind people in chains. It's meant to allow them to roam free so they won't need to be bound in chains to be kept safe. That's what prisons are for, silly. And sometimes not even those.

That doesn't make sense to me. Law IS binding people in chains because many, many people need them to function properly in society. No chains means full responsibility no only for what you do, but for your life also. It's like art - you need some restraints so it will be aesthetically pleasing. Without it, you get abomination called 'Modern art'. Law is something like an ebodiment of saying "My freedom ends where other men's freedom begins"

[megiddo]

It's always worth it...
...to go after bacon!

...Oh god... now every time I see that stupid Carl's Jr. commercial about marrying bacon, I'm going to think of Hanako. I hate you.

Oh my gosh...

"You may now eat the bride."

[kuniqs]

I want to say something, anything, to make her feel better. I can't though. I feel completely useless when faced with a situation like this.

There's no point in denying the obvious. I think what I should say now, and what Hanako wants me to say now, is the truth. What I genuinely, honestly, believe.

skimmed though their sex ed lesson again. Althrough those statements seem to contradict each other, their message is 'What the hell is going on, let's make a shot in conversation and hope I don't say the bad thing'. There's no point to think Hisao would know how to console her with words and not body.
One thing catched my eye: Hisao had a condom in his back pocket. That shows what that dirty bastard expected from her from the start . He rarely even speaks to anybody than Lilly in Hanako's route, and Lilly is a distant memory by the time of 3-4 arcs. Maybe father told him to bring it everywhere 'just in case' but judging by his attidute to his son (salaryman who leaves his son in the hospital for few months all by himself, dumps him in cripple school so he won't need to coupe with his disability at home), I doubt it. I suspect it's just a dev mistake or a requirement for sex scene to even be considered to be put in the game, but still.. In Emi route there are not many rubbers if I remember.

[Beoran]

kuniqs, ah, you are also a father? Hope the kid and your wife is fine. Pregnancy just sucks for many women. And their partners just have to hang in there, so I hope you all came out of it OK.

I think you have a point there with Hisao bringing his condom. He was in love with Hanako, and he probaly must have "felt" something, also a bit of a shy plan if you will. Hanako still had him beat though, from Hisao's reaction, she offered sex much faster than he thought she would.

[kuniqs]

kuniqs, ah, you are also a father? Hope the kid and your wife is fine. Pregnancy just sucks for many women. And their partners just have to hang in there, so I hope you all came out of it OK.

I think you have a point there with Hisao bringing his condom. He was in love with Hanako, and he probaly must have "felt" something, also a bit of a shy plan if you will. Hanako still had him beat though, from Hisao's reaction, she offered sex much faster than he thought she would.

Right, sucks like a bitch for 15 dollars. It's like a second pubescence for them, and my lass was not the same woman after birth. That's why I don't think today's marriages from love are a good thing (not that it was better for women before), since this is one of those issues you can't overcome with throught, no matter how hard you try. William Hunting analysis technique fails, hormones will get the better of you.
Anything Hisao felt in arc 3 was more of a bodyguard crush rather than love, not suprising for a 17y guy. In next arc, specifically in her room, he finally figured out that playtime's over. Hard to imagine for me how it is to have fantasies about boning somebody who's basically like a little sister to you.

[Guest Poster]

I can believe she entertained the possibility. I just don't think she planned on it.

To make... ahem... a personal comparison: once I was keeping the company of a particular lady, and I suspected she might want to be a bit more intimate. So I brought protection. That wasn't the same as a foregone conclusion.

Perhaps that isn't the best comparison, because Hanako was reluctant. But she's obviously fairly accustomed to being unable to predict where a situation will lead.

I think "planned" and "entertained the possibility" overlap somewhat. It's very likely the chest scar scene left Hanako thinking. Thinking about how this was probably the closest both of them got to physical intimacy with someone. Thinking about what would happen if she stripped down instead of Hisao. Thinking what might happen if Hisao were to take the undressing "the wrong way". And then thinking if Hisao taking it "that way" might not be better than remaining stuck in that friendship that despite all the moments they had where they SEEMED to be getting closer just wouldn't get past the platonic stage since Hisao was so worried about her. Especially since SHE loved him already.

I think Hanako was walking around with that "what if"-scenario in her head and when Hisao asked her "I'd like to know more about your past" that gave her an opening and she figured she might as well go through with it.

I doubt it. I suspect it's just a dev mistake or a requirement for sex scene to even be considered to be put in the game, but still.. In Emi route there are not many rubbers if I remember.

I believe the first steamy scene with Emi was unsafe and Emi feels bad about it later, hence one of the reasons she decides to go for back door intercourse instead. A rubber IS mentioned in their final time in the ending.

In this case I though Hanako wasn't exactly begging for it, or giving off that vibe. But it's hard to make assertions, given we don't have any narrative access to her internal monologue.

Like was mentioned, I can't really think of any way to picture Hanako begging or even asking for sex, nor being playfully seductive. At least not at that point. (she can be somewhat playful at her best moments, but this was hardly her best moment) We know that Hanako wanted Hisao to sleep with her, but I think undressing and then silently hoping Hisao gets the hint was really the best thing Hanako could muster at that point.

True. I can imagine many ways in which nonverbal consent can backfire, but yes, it is pretty common. Asking verbally is a good fallback that I think everyone should consider, but that's just my personal opinion, and I wouldn't go to great lengths to cause anyone to think the same.

True, but between the moment where she strips to the moment Hisao enters her, there's several moments where she shows she wants to go through with it. (albeit not for the sake of her own physical pleasure) One signal could have been misinterpreted, but I counted several throughout the scene, though all of them non-verbal.

Good point, o nameless one. One would hope it didn't ruin their romantic relationship for later on, but as with any story, we never know for sure what exactly happened after the credits rolled.

I don't think so...the awkwardness between them wasn't so much due to them having slept together, but due to having slept together without a clearly defined relationship between them. Both of them already loved the other prior to their night together, so while they may have regretted the circumstances and timing of the act, I don't think they ended up regretting the act itself or having hard feelings about it afterwards. I do see Hisao and Hanako taking their time before attempting their second physical union, especially Hisao would probably want to be 100% positive they were ready for it rather than risk feeling guilty about it again.

[Paddy]

Oh, one more thing before I depart from this thread.

Most of the stuff I posted is mainly my own neuroticism and nitpicking on the subject, and also the fact that I love to argue, and hate to concede when others have a point. Please, please, please don't blame it on the fact that I am a Catholic. There are some really, really more sociable, less bullheaded Catholics out there who understand the subject of sex so much, much better than I do, and may quite possibly disagree with me (as they're not neurotic and overly cautious, and are probably more charitable, too).

Please. If you take any opinions away from this discussion - especially negative ones - let them be about me, and not what I'm trying to represent.

.

Oh, and one last thing, that I am sure is Catholic about my opinions:

Love is not just an emotion. Love is a decision to give the best you can give for the person(s) you decide it for. It doesn't stop just because you no longer feel anything for them. It stops when you decide to stop, whether you feel it or not.