Is it just me, or is Hanako better off... [Hanako Spoilers]

[Daitengu]

No one said it would be easy.

As luck would have it, though, I'm probably going to be staying in the United States... so...

Could always visit Europe. Just watch out for the pickpockets in Paris. Keep your wallet in your underpants lol

[Paddy]

No one said it would be easy.

As luck would have it, though, I'm probably going to be staying in the United States... so...

Could always visit Europe. Just watch out for the pickpockets in Paris. Keep your wallet in your underpants lol

I could. Always wanted to go to Ukraine. Eastern Catholicism's where my heart really is, I think.
Although Philadelphia's closer and easier to get to. Plus they speak English. That helps immensely.

[Beoran]

Paddy, I don't consider it credible that Hanako didn't know that sex would follow if she did that. In our day and age, in Japan, or in the western world, if a person takes another person to a private bedroom, closes doors and windows and takes most of their clothes off, then that's a plain non-verbal invitation of that first person to have sex with the other person. That's how it is these days. Compare this to when Hisao showed his scar. Then he clearly stated before that the only undressed just for that purpose, to be sure Hanako didn't misunderstand it as being a sexual invitation. The fact that Hanako doesn't say anything like that, even encourages Hisao to shut up and look at her only makes her sexual intent all the more clear.

So as for motivations of the caracters, I'll try another metaphor to explain my interpretation. Hanako is like a doctor who finds a her friend (Hisao) writhing in pain on her doorsep. She is not quite sure what the disease is, but due to the urgency of the situation, her concern for her friend, and the state he is in, immediate action is needed, or chances are that permanent damage will be done. So, based on intuition and her limited knowledge of her friend, the doctor makes an assumption on what medicine is needed. Since it looks so worrying, she chooses the strongest medication she has on her and administers it. Her friend willingly takes it because he knows he doesn' t have much of a choice than to go along.

Now, the medication does seem to work at first, and the doctor takes the patient to the hospital. But upon arriving there, the medication seems to be not effective anymore. And after further examination, it turn out that, the doctor was mistaken about the illness. But it turns out that thanks to the effects of the medication, her friend was stabilized and could be taken to the hospital, and worse was prevented. And so, the doctor and her friend could find the real cause of the illness together, and he was cured of it. Now in such a situation it's clear that the doctor's actions, while rash, are well well-intended, good, and proper for such a situation.

Paddy, it also seems to me that you have a point of view that emphasizes laws and rules. I think that that's a very narrow view of ethics. To me, virtues and motivations define ethics, and love is the greatest motivation, and the highest virtue humans can aspire to. Now if Hanako didn't love Hisao, then I'd agree that she would be mistaken to offer sex. But she did love Hisao, so that is why I consider what she did as a kind, proper act.

Now, I already conceded before that Hanako didn't know rationally that Hisao loved her. But her love was stronger than her doubt. And that's exactly why I think her act is so admirable and brave. From my point of view, and irrational act of love that breaks the rules, even if only for a chance to make things better, is admirable, kind and proper. What would the world be without such irrational acts of love? Heh, I'm surprised I have to extoll the virtues of love here. But of course, my words are but faint echoes of that brilliant song! Brilliant passionate love! "Love is not consolation. It is light." as Nietzsche said it. So again, I hope that you will all experience such love!

[Radien]

Sorry for my lack of responses... I've been without my own computer.

It'd be a bit much to try to respond to everyone, or even half of everyone, so I'll just make a generalized response:
People have made some very good points here. I actually find that my opinion has been changed, slightly.

It seems most KS players here seem to give Hanako more credit as being aware of her situation and her actions. Considering KS isn't as shallow as many anime/VNs, I am willing to say that that's quite possible. However, personally, I know full well how it is to feel totally lacking control of social situations, and given Hanako's problems, I'm pretty sure that she experiences some of that. Part of the reason for her fear of social interaction is uncertainty; she doesn't know where it will take her. Given that, I don't really expect her to even try to orchestrate a social situation, not because she's incapable, but because she isn't excessively confident like, say, Shizune. I suspect her "baring all" was more of a "let's try this and see how it goes..." thing. That said, however, I'm starting to agree that she had a definite ulterior motive in mind: keeping Hisao close.

My stereotypical image of a dating sim often has female love interests whose perspectives are difficult to imagine as those of real people, with their own desires. Since it's possible to get together with multiple girls, it's harder to imagine one of the girls pulling strings of her own. But Katawa Shoujo seems to dabble with the idea, and I like it. So far, every girl whose path I have played, at one point or another, acts on her own plans, rather than merely reacting to everything the player character does.

So... yeah, now I agree that Hanako might have ended up better off in her own path (ultimately), and that she was trying to orchestrate a specific result....I just don't like this implication of "if you take off your top in front of a guy, you're pretty much committing to have sex." That's a double standard which has nasty implications. And I REALLY didn't like Hisao's response...but that's because I'm supposed to be seeing it from his point of view, not because the storytelling was bad.

[fabio.salvador]

I MADE IT!!!! I MADE IT!!!!!

I WON HANAKO´S GOOD ENDING!

I´ve tried it several times, but kept bumping on Emi and Lili... I play without a chart, walkthrough or any other kind of aid, so it was really something I wanted to achieve in the old fashioned way.

And it was worth it!

[Megumeru]

I MADE IT!!!! I MADE IT!!!!!

I WON HANAKO´S GOOD ENDING!

I´ve tried it several times, but kept bumping on Emi and Lili... I play without a chart, walkthrough or any other kind of aid, so it was really something I wanted to achieve in the old fashioned way.

And it was worth it!

It's always worth it...
...to go after bacon!

[Paddy]

I MADE IT!!!! I MADE IT!!!!!

I WON HANAKO´S GOOD ENDING!

I´ve tried it several times, but kept bumping on Emi and Lili... I play without a chart, walkthrough or any other kind of aid, so it was really something I wanted to achieve in the old fashioned way.

And it was worth it!

*claps*

Congratulations!

[Beoran]

Radien, well, I agree she has problems with social interaction, and that's exactly why I think it would be strange for her to just even show her body like that, nevermind have sex on the spur of the moment. I think people like that would need a few days or at least hours to gather the courage to do that. That is why I think she must have planned it. Not like Shizune would, with a clever hidden seven step plan she like most likely set into motion to be able to nail Hisao in that chair. With Hanako it would be a mere a shy yet loving notion of "Hey... maybe if I show him myself... and if we then do THAT... then he might see I'm here for him to...", as a reaction to Hisao showing his scar. Not much of a plan, but still a plan. Much like how many people plan to have/offer/ask for sex.

I agree with you on the depth of KS's characters. They have their own motives, and thats' why I interpret the stories taking that into consideration.

As for your last point, I tried to explicitly avoid double standards. Notice I used "person" in my description. And and it's more than just taking of your top, it's also the whole situation where you taking someone into a private bedroom, partially undress and say nothing to dispel any sexual notions. Actions get their meanings in context. If Hanako was taking off her top at the beach, then she'd probably want to sunbathe or ask Hisao to put on her swimming costume/ sun lotion, and if it was in the bathroom, then she'd probably want Hisao to wash her back.

But if Hisao took Hanako to his room, closed door and windows and took off his top and his pants leaving on only socks and briefs without saying anything to dispel the notions, it would be just as much as an offer to have/asking for sex. Of course, sex must be consensual, but consent doesn't mean both parties have to sign a release form or explicitly state it in words. People do ask for/ offer / accept to having sex in nonverbal ways, especially *shy* people. And I think that's perfectly fine as long as both partners are able and in good condition to say they don't consent or want to quit after all. What happens in Hanako's story if you pay close attention is a good example of such nonverbal way of asking for and consenting to sex.

[Paddy]

Paddy, it also seems to me that you have a point of view that emphasizes laws and rules. I think that that's a very narrow view of ethics. To me, virtues and motivations define ethics, and love is the greatest motivation, and the highest virtue humans can aspire to. Now if Hanako didn't love Hisao, then I'd agree that she would be mistaken to offer sex. But she did love Hisao, so that is why I consider what she did as a kind, proper act.

Love is the greatest of all motivators, towards anything or any person.

However, that particular act, while it is one made in love, is also made because you will never leave or abandon the one you do it with. It's a commitment. A covenant. If you like, a contract. When you do it, you become one with that person. If you do it without the intention of being there for them afterwards or long afterwards, you may as well have paid them money for all the bad you've done them by lying to them with your body.

I really don't know what to make of Hanako and Hisao's sex now. Sure, they had their own intentions, and those did end up being good... I think. It's tough to tell in a situation like theirs.

But, yes. In the case of Catholicism, there are protocols to love. Not to make love more difficult or boring or tedious. And not even to prevent stupid mistakes from happening. But because there is something very special about sex that you don't just give away, but which is meant really for the one you wish to be with forever. To quote G.K. Chesterton, a much happier, wiser, and more Catholic man than myself, "Catholic doctrine and discipline may be walls; but they are the walls of a playground." The rules are there so you don't have to take risks - so long as you follow them.

Another quote. Superman once said to Mr. Mxyzptlk, "A game has rules; otherwise it's just random idiocy." Life without rules is anarchy, and virtue becomes a rather meaningless word without rules to define it. What is love if it has no order? Some people say life is love. Some people say to kill is a loving act.

Pardon if I am being melodramatic, but while you are right in that love is the greatest virtue we can aspire to - I completely and wholeheartedly agree - I do not agree that one's own judgement about what love is should be the rule of love. If that were so, it would have been at one time that the most loving thing you could do was to take you and your lover out into the woods and commit suicide together. At another time, having many children together in a committed, monogamous marriage. Now what is the rule of love?

Now, I already conceded before that Hanako didn't know rationally that Hisao loved her. But her love was stronger than her doubt. And that's exactly why I think her act is so admirable and brave. From my point of view, and irrational act of love that breaks the rules, even if only for a chance to make things better, is admirable, kind and proper. What would the world be without such irrational acts of love? Heh, I'm surprised I have to extoll the virtues of love here. But of course, my words are but faint echoes of that brilliant song! Brilliant passionate love! "Love is not consolation. It is light." as Nietzsche said it. So again, I hope that you will all experience such love!

\

You seem to be a disciple of Nietzsche. Interesting. I try (but usually exceedingly fail) to follow G.K. Chesterton, if you've got the time.

He's one of the ones who got me to see that it's also exceedingly brave and admirable to say, "No; we should wait. There will be a much better time - when we really have been declared a lord and a dame."

I do understand the need for bravery and love and acting courageously and doing what you think is right. That is why I follow the rules - because they show us how to be courageous, and brave, and how to love. I often forget that's why I follow the rules. Sometimes I have my head so far stuck in my books I forget that man was made to be a knight. He was made to love his Lord, and to love and protect his fellow man and drive out enemies, but also to have fun while doing so.

Paddy, I don't consider it credible that Hanako didn't know that sex would follow if she did that. In our day and age, in Japan, or in the western world, if a person takes another person to a private bedroom, closes doors and windows and takes most of their clothes off, then that's a plain non-verbal invitation of that first person to have sex with the other person. That's how it is these days.

Compare this to when Hisao showed his scar. Then he clearly stated before that the only undressed just for that purpose, to be sure Hanako didn't misunderstand it as being a sexual invitation. The fact that Hanako doesn't say anything like that, even encourages Hisao to shut up and look at her only makes her sexual intent all the more clear.

Then again, would any girl but an exhibitionist really want to be seen almost naked, much less in front of a boy, for any reason? Regardless of the intention, it would undoubtedly look suspicious.

So as for motivations of the characters, I'll try another metaphor to explain my interpretation. Hanako is like a doctor who finds a her friend (Hisao) writhing in pain on her doorstep. She is not quite sure what the disease is, but due to the urgency of the situation, her concern for her friend, and the state he is in, immediate action is needed, or chances are that permanent damage will be done. So, based on intuition and her limited knowledge of her friend, the doctor makes an assumption on what medicine is needed. Since it looks so worrying, she chooses the strongest medication she has on her and administers it. Her friend willingly takes it because he knows he doesn' t have much of a choice than to go along.

Now, the medication does seem to work at first, and the doctor takes the patient to the hospital. But upon arriving there, the medication seems to be not effective anymore. And after further examination, it turn out that, the doctor was mistaken about the illness. But it turns out that thanks to the effects of the medication, her friend was stabilized and could be taken to the hospital, and worse was prevented. And so, the doctor and her friend could find the real cause of the illness together, and he was cured of it. Now in such a situation it's clear that the doctor's actions, while rash, are well well-intended, good, and proper for such a situation.

Interesting metaphor.

[kuniqs]

He.. heheheh Paddy, I love You like a brother.

What I could tell You.. If there were no darkness, who would notice the light?
You wrote previously about state of marriages and that it was worsening through last 50 years. Believe me bro, marriages from 100 years and more older times really weren't made from love - it was more a trade agreement between families. Only during those past ~50 years (after WWII ?) they are percieved as something 'magicall', mostly so wedding companies can get money from couples sinking it into. I agree today's relationships are more decadent than in past, but it's more because people now make their own choices. Horrible, inexperienced ones.

[Oddball]

Paddy, you seem to have good intentions, but people, even fictional ones, don't always fall into neat little boxes where all the rules perfectly apply to them. Rules may be to help people be safe, but sometimes being safe just means being stagnant. Everyone is a special case and sometimes what a person needs isn't to be safe, but to take risks and be hurt. Sometimes you have o scream, and shout, and break the rules because it's the only that will work for you.

You said the rules were there so people don't have to take risks. The problem is, sometimes if you don't risk losing, you can't win either.

Sometimes I have my head so far stuck in my books I forget that man was made to be a knight. He was made to love his Lord, and to love and protect his fellow man and drive out enemies, but also to have fun while doing so.

Not every man walks the same path. Nor should they.

Then again, would any girl but an exhibitionist really want to be seen almost naked, much less in front of a boy, for any reason?

She didn't want to. She needed to. It's a very different thing altogether. She was exposing herself in more ways than just one here. It was a way of saying she didn't want to hide anything anymore in a way that words simply wouldn't have done. ... of course it went all wrong, but the intentions were there.

[kuniqs]

people, even fictional ones, don't always fall into neat little boxes where all the rules perfectly apply to them. Rules may be to help people be safe, but sometimes being safe just means being stagnant.

Thanks for saying it for me, perfect order exists only on cementeries. One of the reasons all this dumb emo culture/self-mutilation exists is that today's teenagers have a bit too easy compared to their folks. They don't neccessary need to put up with an annoying neighbour, don't have many family problems, don't need to work to feed themselves when they're few years old. Human nature just needs imperfection to function properly.
For me, making Hanako hscene as 'healthly adolescent wish fulfillment' would rather ruin it. Her route didn't really needed a sex scene, but fortunately it was made, compared to other VN's, with taste.
Weren't they ancient Greeks who first came up with idea that both tragedy and comedy could be experienced on the same levels of pleasure?

[fabio.salvador]

After winning the hanako route...

... I must, first, say that I went through three routes, and finished them all succesfully: Emi, Lili and Hanako. Then I went the wrong way on those 3 routes, just to see what would happened. but my first shot at each one o those girls came to be successful. I must have really learned the login behind this game. I play with no chart or walkthrough.

But coming back to what i was going to say... I really did not understand a large part of all the discussion about the sex scene. When I first read the discussions in this forum, I tought that I would have an option, choosing between HAVING SEX with her and NOT HAVING SEX. But once you get the right route, you HAVE SEX with her, it´s your fate and not even your fiercest prayers can change it.

Now that I have my own experience about winning Hanako´s heart, I must tell you: I think the sex scene fits in the story very well. And I disagree of the people who say it´s "almost rape". She wanted it, and without it, maybe she and Hisao would stay in "friend zone" forever, or "platonic love" zone... then in the end she kisses him. I think it´s quite a good proof that they became boyfriend and girlfriend!

Maybe I am interpreting relationships in a too simple way but... friends having sex can be the gate through which friendship walks into the realm of a couple relationship.

Sometimes, however, sex can ruin something that was going to evolve more slowly. But this doesn´t seem to be the case in Hisao/Hanako´s story.

Because, you know... after Hanako starts to act like a normal girl, even kissing Hisao in public, I might imagine she is off her shell for good.

...
.... sorry for writing so much, but this is REALLY a great game!

[Guest Poster]

Hanako and Hisao sleeping together did a little bit of both. It WAS a gate to a relationship beyond friendship AND it nearly ruined their friendship.

Actually, the fallout did ruin their friendship as it was...a friendship that was platonic only because whenever one got close, something inevitably happened that caused the other to back off. (this happened over and over again during acts 3 and 4) The sex itself was the final move in this tug-of-war relationship, where both took a big step closer, only to take two steps back again the next morning. That was kind of the point where both realized that if they took one more step back, things might not be salvagable anymore. Fortunately, since both loved the other, they made some lasting steps forward.

[Paddy]

He.. heheheh Paddy, I love You like a brother.

What I could tell You.. If there were no darkness, who would notice the light?
You wrote previously about state of marriages and that it was worsening through last 50 years. Believe me bro, marriages from 100 years and more older times really weren't made from love - it was more a trade agreement between families. Only during those past ~50 years (after WWII ?) they are percieved as something 'magicall', mostly so wedding companies can get money from couples sinking it into. I agree today's relationships are more decadent than in past, but it's more because people now make their own choices. Horrible, inexperienced ones.

Not being a married man, or knowing much about the history of marriage, I can't say much to rebut your argument - except that it's bollocks. Love as a norm for relationships has existed a lot longer than 50 years. If it didn't, who would have dreamed up such stories as that of Pyramus and Thisbe, or the Tragedy of Othello (which began as a romance), or even Rapunzel (which was written in the 1800s).

But love wasn't the reason you decided to give up your freedom. Love is the giving up of your freedom for their sakes.

To quote GK Chesterton again, this time from a paper he wrote called "A Defence of Rash Vows", as he can say things so much better than I do:

Opponents of marriage... appear to imagine that the ideal of constancy was a yoke mysteriously imposed on mankind by the devil, instead of being, as it is, a yoke consistently imposed by all lovers on themselves.... It is the nature of love to bind itself, and the institution of marriage merely paid the average man the compliment of taking him at his word. Modern sages offer to the lover, with an ill-favoured grin, the largest liberties and the fullest irresponsibility...They give him every liberty except the liberty to sell his liberty, which is the only one that he wants.

It is exactly this backdoor, this sense of having a retreat behind us, that is, to our minds, the sterlizing spirit in modern pleasure. Everywhere there is the persistent and insane attempt to obtain pleasure without paying for it. ... Thus, in religion and morals, the decadent mystics say: `Let us have the fragrance of sacred purity without the sorrows of self-restraint; let us sing hymns alternately to the Virgin and Priapus.' Thus in love the free-lovers say: `Let us have the splendour of offering ourselves without the peril of committing ourselves; let us see whether one cannot commit suicide an unlimited number of times.'

Emphatically it will not work. There are thrilling moments, doubtless, for the spectator, the amateur, and the aesthete; but there is one thrill that is known only to the soldier who fights for his own flag, to the aesthetic who starves himself for his own illumination, to the lover who makes finally his own choice. And it is this transfiguring self-discipline that makes the vow a truly sane thing.

Himself being a happily married man to his wife, Frances, for 35 years until his death in 1936, I think he has a one-up on me regarding marriage. What say you?

The things I like about Emi and Lilly's routes are that they're already tied to each other. They're already committed to not letting go of each other. In that sense, they are already married in a way.

Maybe I am just splitting the splits of hairs by now, but while I consider it rather fortunate that Hanako and Hisao both did want to commit themselves to each other - "chain two mountains together", so to speak - and in the end they did end up finding out that frankly the other party wanted to do that, too, it still concerns me because they attempted to bind something which, in the end, might not have been bound.

In other words, while specifically Hanako and Hisao did love each other, man y and woman x, generally speaking, cannot be so sure their gamble is going to pay off. If one party had really just wanted to be friends and not yolked to this other half, mightn't it be problematic - not just in Hanako and Hisao's relationship, but any relationship which has this kind of scenario?
Mightn't it be problematic to throw a yoke around someone's neck along with yours - only to have that someone else drop it and leave you to bear it alone?

Actually, the fallout did ruin their friendship as it was...a friendship that was platonic only because whenever one got close, something inevitably happened that caused the other to back off. (this happened over and over again during acts 3 and 4) The sex itself was the final move in this tug-of-war relationship, where both took a big step closer, only to take two steps back again the next morning. That was kind of the point where both realized that if they took one more step back, things might not be salvagable anymore. Fortunately, since both loved the other, they made some lasting steps forward.

It does not always end this fortunately, though. I am glad it did this time.

But while you see it as something either that could have ended in bringing them closer together or tearing anything they had to shreds, ultimately for them to move on (hopefully), I can only see that as an act of commitment in a relationship I am committed to or will commit to, and willingly so. Either it MUST go through... or, or the world implodes on itself. For no reason, under no circumstances, not even if it could magically feed all the starving children in Africa or cure cancer, could I pretend to dive into a vow that I or she are not prepared to make. A vow takes two. You can't just jump in and hope she follows you along.

Oh, that reminds me, about arranged marriages: "shotgun marriages" aren't real, binding marriages. Those are marriages done in fear that one or more of the parties concerned that they will get killed otherwise. That is not a basis for commitment. Neither is an arranged marriage where the girl does not consent. But such an arranged marriage, even if the bride has only know the husband for one day, can be a legitimate marriage, on one condition: if, and only if, regardless of how well they know each other, they both agree to be faithful to each other, 'til death do they part.

I'll take a page from "Fiddler on the Roof" to illustrate my point:
Do You Love Me?

Paddy, you seem to have good intentions, but people, even fictional ones, don't always fall into neat little boxes where all the rules perfectly apply to them. Rules may be to help people be safe, but sometimes being safe just means being stagnant. Everyone is a special case and sometimes what a person needs isn't to be safe, but to take risks and be hurt. Sometimes you have o scream, and shout, and break the rules because it's the only that will work for you.

I have difficulty with this, too. I think most people do these days. I'd say it's symptomatic of watching too many movies, reading too much literature, listening to too many stupid things that advocate this kind of thing. Because the people who want to break the rules usually do see them as restrictive.

But then think, comparatively, of the very many, many things that the rules do not prohibit nor require. The problem of Adam and Eve was not being restricted from too much; it was of forgetting how unrestricted they were. They could eat the fruit of any tree in the Garden of Eden. They could climb the trees, cultivate anything they liked, be with any of the animals. They could climb all over each other, and make love to each other to their heart's delight. The only thing they could not do was to touch or eat from one tree. Only one. It may seem unfair of God to impose a restriction on one tree, but in comparison to the countless other things available for the doing, it seems like a fair price. Even if you can only see the Garden of Eden as an allegory, in modern secular society, at least in free places like America, Canada, and Europe, there are a lot of things you can feel free to do that the law doesn't even mention.

Law is not meant to bind people in chains. It's meant to allow them to roam free so they won't need to be bound in chains to be kept safe. That's what prisons are for, silly. And sometimes not even those.

There is another thing laws do in your favour. Athletes and all kinds of hard-working people will tell you that the rules - discipline - allow them to excel in what they do. Concert pianists train their minds and their fingers for hours. Actors sacrifice months they might have spent playing something entertaining so that they can perform something to entertain others. Even janitors learn how to mop, scrub, and dust well so they don't have to take as long to do it. They subject themselves freely to rules to their own advantage.

Then again, would any girl but an exhibitionist really want to be seen almost naked, much less in front of a boy, for any reason?

She didn't want to. She needed to. It's a very different thing altogether. She was exposing herself in more ways than just one here. It was a way of saying she didn't want to hide anything anymore in a way that words simply wouldn't have done.

Exactly. Read in context, you'll see I wasn't disagreeing with this sentiment. I was disagreeing with Beoran, who thinks she'd intended to seduce Hisao.