Am I the only one that enjoyed Shizune's route?

[Guest]

My experience in this route is also colored by my own history, so full disclosure (more like venting) first:
(note: only done this and emi's path so far)
My girlfriend throughout college was similar in many ways to a combination of Shizune/Misha. The competitiveness was more inward-directed but still apparent, over-committed to clubs, tried to include everyone (drag everyone in - more successful due to less outward directed competitiveness I think).
We even co-headed a student govt. committee with no other members, despite both of us not satisfying the requirements to do so.
I suppose the biggest depressor the whole route was how the relationship was always on hold indefinitely. It seemed time would 'build up' and Shizune would realize that she was in a relationship but hadn't been acting like it, and give a burst of intimacy - see: the time between making the relationship official to when (it seems) they first kiss, and after the first H-scene to the next time they even really talk to each other, the time between intimate encounters (given intel from the bad route, compared to Emi's). She buried herself behind work to not deal with relationship issues, and avoided being affectionate around friends due to their feelings towards her.
Since this whole 'on hold relationship' seemed to run through the whole route, it just kept reminding me of my past. This all ended about 1.5 years ago but this story still got to me pretty badly. I usually get really into a story anyway, taking it to heart etc, but this one I felt like it didn't even have a slight barrier to do so.
(there are more similarities, but are less compelling and I attribute them to confirmation bias after being convinced of the connection by the on-hold relationship bit)

On to more-objective statements:
Lack of choices: Like I said, I've only been down Emi's path besides this one, but most choices for her didn't even net unlocking new scenes, so lack of choices was not too bad
Timeframe: I feel like the in-universe time this covers is quite long. Either this is fed by, or feeds into, the 'on hold relationship' bit I talked about before.
Side-stories: I feel these were provided to show what was happening that was hindering relationship progress.
Jigoro: First I was mad, but then I couldn't take him seriously. Only thing I still take seriously was how he tried to 'fix' his daughter
Relationship: This path seemed more like a personal development one. Since you NEED to progress toward a relationship to get past act 1, the relationship is required, but it is very much a backburner one. Its more like a close friendship.
(h-scenes: why don't they ever use a condom? in Emi's, its at least revealed, in the final scene, that they have been after the first go.)


As much as I like that fan epilogue (and want to take it as cannon) my own impression is again taken from my experience, where they 'love each other as friends' or something. I still speak with my college girlfriend (in the context of our friend-group), so... this just seems like how it was. I actually didn't take the ending too hard though, it was the middle section of the route which got to me the most... which is an odd occurrence for me when reading a story, usually the endings bug the hell out of me.


Reading posts in this thread have helped me enjoy this 'route' more - I "disliked" it because of how it reminded me of my past, but the way people put the route into perspective here have helped me put my past in perspective as well. I came out of the whole thing a lot better than if I had never been a part (I predict I'd have been a shut in, not crazy like kenji hopefully)

I think that's all for now. Any more writing and this post will just get more scatterbrained.

[Pl4t0]

My experience in this route is also colored by my own history, so full disclosure (more like venting) first:
(note: only done this and emi's path so far)
My girlfriend throughout college was similar in many ways to a combination of Shizune/Misha. The competitiveness was more inward-directed but still apparent, over-committed to clubs, tried to include everyone (drag everyone in - more successful due to less outward directed competitiveness I think).
We even co-headed a student govt. committee with no other members, despite both of us not satisfying the requirements to do so.
I suppose the biggest depressor the whole route was how the relationship was always on hold indefinitely. It seemed time would 'build up' and Shizune would realize that she was in a relationship but hadn't been acting like it, and give a burst of intimacy - see: the time between making the relationship official to when (it seems) they first kiss, and after the first H-scene to the next time they even really talk to each other, the time between intimate encounters (given intel from the bad route, compared to Emi's). She buried herself behind work to not deal with relationship issues, and avoided being affectionate around friends due to their feelings towards her.
Since this whole 'on hold relationship' seemed to run through the whole route, it just kept reminding me of my past. This all ended about 1.5 years ago but this story still got to me pretty badly. I usually get really into a story anyway, taking it to heart etc, but this one I felt like it didn't even have a slight barrier to do so.
(there are more similarities, but are less compelling and I attribute them to confirmation bias after being convinced of the connection by the on-hold relationship bit)

It's interesting just how many people have been able to cite past experience like this...very interesting, thanks for sharing

Lack of choices: Like I said, I've only been down Emi's path besides this one, but most choices for her didn't even net unlocking new scenes, so lack of choices was not too bad

As interesting as the choices are, it seems that each route really only has a single meaningful, impactful choice.

Timeframe: I feel like the in-universe time this covers is quite long. Either this is fed by, or feeds into, the 'on hold relationship' bit I talked about before.

This was one of the route's stumbling points, in my opinion - whereas the other routes cover Hisao's junior year, Shizune's route goes through to graduation. This is great, but it doesn't do a very good job of conveying how everything fits into the timeline and this easily led to a lot of confusion.

Relationship: This path seemed more like a personal development one. Since you NEED to progress toward a relationship to get past act 1, the relationship is required, but it is very much a backburner one. Its more like a close friendship.
(h-scenes: why don't they ever use a condom? in Emi's, its at least revealed, in the final scene, that they have been after the first go.)

You make a good point about the personal development side - I think that it just seems backburner, though, and Shizune is just really scared underneath that whole competitive exterior. She doesn't really know how to work a relationship, and the first h-scene reflects this very well. So while it feels backburner it's just Shizune's lack of experience.

That's a good question, about the condoms - all the other routes make a point of mentioning protection at some point. I guess the Shizune-route Hisao just likes living dangerously xD

[metalangel]

Sex:

I think Shizune finds this new-found physical affection thing thrilling and wants to experience it "properly". A lot of people don't consider sex with condoms as "real" or intimate, and given how symbolic her scenes that's doubly true in her thinking, I bet.

I also wouldn't put a morning-after pill or similar past her because she'd want motherhood on her terms too.

Finally, it's just the way it goes sometimes. One thing leads to another, as they say, and the next thing you know you're going at it. Plus, They were both virgins, right?

I don't think it's a "relationship on hold" so much as one with someone who not only has never had one but isn't sure of what being a girlfriend really means yet.

[guest2]

I didn't have time to read the whole thread, but in response to the OP's question: Are there people that didn't enjoy all the routes? Other than particularly enjoying a non-Shizune route, I enjoyed all of them, though I thought Shizune would have been crazier (as in Cluster B personality disorder) with a father like Jigoro.

[HTL2001]

I don't think it's a "relationship on hold" so much as one with someone who not only has never had one but isn't sure of what being a girlfriend really means yet.

You're right, maybe its not the best term, but I kept quoting it not for emphasis but just to refer back. However, with 'not knowing what a girlfriend means' you'd think she'd make more of an effort to do... anything really. She isn't adverse to taking risks, from what I gather from the route. Also... from the bad end, about building up things and then tearing them down, perhaps that was what was going on, she would 'finish' getting close to him, then it was 'done'. She knew how to do dates, at least on a mechanical level.

(yes, the guest post was me, decided to join)


EDIT:
after pulling up the bad end again, the good end makes me think that, she's finally found something that she doesn't ever want to be 'done' with... perhaps.

[Quietpower]

Lack of choices: Like I said, I've only been down Emi's path besides this one, but most choices for her didn't even net unlocking new scenes, so lack of choices was not too bad

That was my one nitpick of Katawa Shoujo as a whole. I can't really fault the game for it because it pulled it off really well, but I felt that the game got super linear after act 1. Like act 1 was a mass of choices which turned into a semi-linear corridor toward 1 girls end. But like in Ever17, the game went on toward AN end with choices leading all the way up to the end, that determined who you got.

I don't really know how to put it in words, but I think to sum it up, KS got linear really early whereas other VN's (that I've played at least) got linear way later.

[Bagheera]

Lack of choices: Like I said, I've only been down Emi's path besides this one, but most choices for her didn't even net unlocking new scenes, so lack of choices was not too bad

That was my one nitpick of Katawa Shoujo as a whole. I can't really fault the game for it because it pulled it off really well, but I felt that the game got super linear after act 1. Like act 1 was a mass of choices which turned into a semi-linear corridor toward 1 girls end. But like in Ever17, the game went on toward AN end with choices leading all the way up to the end, that determined who you got.

I don't really know how to put it in words, but I think to sum it up, KS got linear really early whereas other VN's (that I've played at least) got linear way later.

First, awesome avatar.

Second, I'm not sure it's that linear; I think that, while various choices don't unlock much in the way of additional content, they do act in concert to determine whether you get a good or bad end. That means they're not as pointless as they might seem.

[Quietpower]

Lack of choices: Like I said, I've only been down Emi's path besides this one, but most choices for her didn't even net unlocking new scenes, so lack of choices was not too bad

That was my one nitpick of Katawa Shoujo as a whole. I can't really fault the game for it because it pulled it off really well, but I felt that the game got super linear after act 1. Like act 1 was a mass of choices which turned into a semi-linear corridor toward 1 girls end. But like in Ever17, the game went on toward AN end with choices leading all the way up to the end, that determined who you got.

I don't really know how to put it in words, but I think to sum it up, KS got linear really early whereas other VN's (that I've played at least) got linear way later.

First, awesome avatar.

Second, I'm not sure it's that linear; I think that, while various choices don't unlock much in the way of additional content, they do act in concert to determine whether you get a good or bad end. That means they're not as pointless as they might seem.

I dunno, I just can't help but feel KS is like a single room with some walls and mazes with 5 doors leading into long corridors leading to varying exit doors along the way, whereas other VN's I've played are a room with a ton of walls and mazes with straight up exit doors leading out of the room.

I've only ever been able to explain things through analogies. ._.

[HTL2001]

Regarding choices, I've done a fair bit of running through on skip mode to check some things. Most choices only give a slight change in the current/next scene, though in emi's route, it was interesting that a choice earlier on in the route could determine whether you got a choice later or got railroaded into the 'bad' choice (which doesn't have to lead to a bad end). Again I can't comment on other routes.

As for act 1 choices, goddamn. They do a good job carrying all the different divergent possibilities into the future (ie. in Sizune, whether you started the route via them barging into your room or by politely avoiding the nurse visit adds/changes some lines very deep in the route)

[metalangel]

You're right, maybe its not the best term, but I kept quoting it not for emphasis but just to refer back. However, with 'not knowing what a girlfriend means' you'd think she'd make more of an effort to do... anything really. She isn't adverse to taking risks, from what I gather from the route.

She's not averse to risks but she has also realized that her actions aren't always being receiving well by other people emotionally. She knows what's going on inside Misha's head but isn't sure why, and so with Hisao and her now an item she's doing the one thing she knows she's good at: throwing herself into her own little projects. It's her way of coping when she's not really sure what to do next. She's been interested in Hisao since they first met and this could be one of the risks she's not prepared to take... but who can she ask? Her only other friend is also in love with her! Back to the whole emotions thing.

Poor Shizune. A lot of people have said her father is too ridiculous to take seriously, but the way he acts and talks reminds me a lot of grade school friend's alcoholic father. When he'd had a few he'd slur his mind at us, in a style very similar to Jigoro. It was scary and mind-warping stuff. To grow up in an environment like that, where your father is like that all the time, constantly being insulting and critical and angry that you're not 'normal'... it's a good thing she's very intelligent as that saved her from coming out a complete wreck.

Also... from the bad end, about building up things and then tearing them down, perhaps that was what was going on, she would 'finish' getting close to him, then it was 'done'. She knew how to do dates, at least on a mechanical level.

Building up and tearing down makes me think of bad managers who keep restructuring their offices so they look busy. For Shizune, that might have been her intention at first, but coloured with these strange feelings she'd never experienced before. Hisao started becoming more than another box to be ticked off on her to-do list.

Remember, if you've played Emi's route, when Hisao thinks to himself after a date with Emi that this can't possibly be true, it'll never work out, it never does
? I think Shizune starts to think like that. You notice how many times she asks Hisao 'you're going to hang out with us, right?' and 'we're friends, right?'. She's thinking the same thing, and needs reassurance that yes, he really isn't going anywhere.

[Bagheera]

She's not averse to risks but she has also realized that her actions aren't always being receiving well by other people emotionally. She knows what's going on inside Misha's head but isn't sure why, and so with Hisao and her now an item she's doing the one thing she knows she's good at: throwing herself into her own little projects. It's her way of coping when she's not really sure what to do next. She's been interested in Hisao since they first met and this could be one of the risks she's not prepared to take... but who can she ask? Her only other friend is also in love with her! Back to the whole emotions thing.

Also, while she's fine with taking risks for herself she seems to be much more skittish when they involve the potential for hurting others.

[HTL2001]

Some more things I was thinking about...
1. The 'good end' isn't good enough
This has been said (basically) a few times. One of the big things is not returning the 'I love you' in any meaningful way

2. The 'bad end' isn't bad enough, or not bad in the right way
The bad end would fit better if there were a bunch of smaller decisions along the route, and choosing too many bad ones would result in the bad end. At the point it diverges from the good end path, the mindset of Shizune must be very different. Compare to Emi, where in both cases she's of the same mind to say its over, but Hisao is the one who acts differently and effects the outcome.

Remember, if you've played Emi's route, when Hisao thinks to himself after a date with Emi that this can't possibly be true, it'll never work out, it never does
? I think Shizune starts to think like that. You notice how many times she asks Hisao 'you're going to hang out with us, right?' and 'we're friends, right?'. She's thinking the same thing, and needs reassurance that yes, he really isn't going anywhere.

I feel like the bad end route could have taken this and done something with it. Hisao could have said something like "it doesn't matter how bad you've screwed up, I still love you" etc. which would lead to the good end eventually.
I also notice she still had the cat doll in her bag, something else he could have used.

[Otakumon]

She's not averse to risks but she has also realized that her actions aren't always being receiving well by other people emotionally. She knows what's going on inside Misha's head but isn't sure why, and so with Hisao and her now an item she's doing the one thing she knows she's good at: throwing herself into her own little projects. It's her way of coping when she's not really sure what to do next. She's been interested in Hisao since they first met and this could be one of the risks she's not prepared to take... but who can she ask? Her only other friend is also in love with her! Back to the whole emotions thing.

Also, while she's fine with taking risks for herself she seems to be much more skittish when they involve the potential for hurting others.

If she was concerned about hurting others she would have let Misha go her own way so she could find someone who would return her feelings after Shizune rejected her, but she keeps her within arm's reach with no apparent consideration for how she must feel constantly being around someone she has feelings for and had rejected those feelings.

[Bagheera]

She's not averse to risks but she has also realized that her actions aren't always being receiving well by other people emotionally. She knows what's going on inside Misha's head but isn't sure why, and so with Hisao and her now an item she's doing the one thing she knows she's good at: throwing herself into her own little projects. It's her way of coping when she's not really sure what to do next. She's been interested in Hisao since they first met and this could be one of the risks she's not prepared to take... but who can she ask? Her only other friend is also in love with her! Back to the whole emotions thing.

Also, while she's fine with taking risks for herself she seems to be much more skittish when they involve the potential for hurting others.

If she was concerned about hurting others she would have let Misha go her own way so she could find someone who would return her feelings after Shizune rejected her, but she keeps her within arm's reach with no apparent consideration for how she must feel constantly being around someone she has feelings for and had rejected those feelings.

So, what, Misha has no choice in the matter? It takes two to tango, don't forget. Ever consider the possibility that Misha might have insisted on sticking around, and Shizune acquiesced to avoid shooting her down a second time?

[Otakumon]

So, what, Misha has no choice in the matter? It takes two to tango, don't forget. Ever consider the possibility that Misha might have insisted on sticking around, and Shizune acquiesced to avoid shooting her down a second time?

Read Misha's rooftop coming out and the flashback scenes again. She thought it was over after being rejected but Shizune kept tracking her down, similar to how the two of them kept after Hisao in act 1. She was glad that Shizune still wanted to be her friend but she also says it hurt both then and now.