The Hanako Thread - Spoilers, obviously

[Koda89]

See I have no problem at all with having sexy time with Hanako. My issue is having sexy time immediately after Hanako literally bared it all.

It is just a very jarring thing, and I myself wasn't ready for it to happen that quickly.

Basically, I think my only real problem with Hanako's sex scene was it wasn't properly segued into it. Hell I don't even think there was any segue at all! It was basically Hanako showing the full extent of her scars and then straight into sexy time.

I think if it was better segued people on a whole would be more accepting of it.

[Rivan]

See I have no problem at all with having sexy time with Hanako. My issue is having sexy time immediately after Hanako literally bared it all.

It is just a very jarring thing, and I myself wasn't ready for it to happen that quickly.

Basically, I think my only real problem with Hanako's sex scene was it wasn't properly segued into it. Hell I don't even think there was any segue at all! It was basically Hanako showing the full extent of her scars and then straight into sexy time.

I think if it was better segued people on a whole would be more accepting of it.

... Basically, it's her getting naked, him listening to the story, him realizing she is attractive and all, him acting on his hormones and the situation resolving into a painful but correct way for them to get closer.

Sure, Hisao's reasoning could be described in a better way than just "curves" and "gosh, I'm so aroused right now", the problem is, this is the NATURAL reaction and reasoning. Frankly speaking, it's also something Hanako partially hopes for - to treat her normally and the way he would any other girl in this situation.

And let's face it. When a girl who is attractive to you closes the doors and separates the room from the outside world, and then suddenly gets naked in front of you, your first, second, or third impulse will be *have sex with her!*.

Unless you have a very low libido, or serious hormonal issues. Or if you are a White Knight that could never despoil his beloved girl so. Which is basically what Hanako is succesful in curing Hisao of.

Now, I agree the scene should be longer and include a little more explanation for Hisao's acting, as well as him *actually freaking asking for consent instead of realizing the day after he never did*, but the outcome and the results seem right, if painful and awkward.

[Benkei]

Do you guys not understand that the awkwardness, that the wrongness of that scene was both intentional and was used to further drive the plot? Being a good writer does not mean writing characters who always make the right decisions. Being a good story does not require being the sum of ideal scenarios. What was written in Hanako Act 4 was so real, so human! And that is why it resonates so strongly with players and why the author(s) deserve such credit for that act.

[Koda89]

See I have no problem at all with having sexy time with Hanako. My issue is having sexy time immediately after Hanako literally bared it all.

It is just a very jarring thing, and I myself wasn't ready for it to happen that quickly.

Basically, I think my only real problem with Hanako's sex scene was it wasn't properly segued into it. Hell I don't even think there was any segue at all! It was basically Hanako showing the full extent of her scars and then straight into sexy time.

I think if it was better segued people on a whole would be more accepting of it.

... Basically, it's her getting naked, him listening to the story, him realizing she is attractive and all, him acting on his hormones and the situation resolving into a painful but correct way for them to get closer.

Sure, Hisao's reasoning could be described in a better way than just "curves" and "gosh, I'm so aroused right now", the problem is, this is the NATURAL reaction and reasoning. Frankly speaking, it's also something Hanako partially hopes for - to treat her normally and the way he would any other girl in this situation.

And let's face it. When a girl who is attractive to you closes the doors and separates the room from the outside world, and then suddenly gets naked in front of you, your first, second, or third impulse will be *have sex with her!*.

Unless you have a very low libido, or serious hormonal issues. Or if you are a White Knight that could never despoil his beloved girl so. Which is basically what Hanako is succesful in curing Hisao of.

Now, I agree the scene should be longer and include a little more explanation for Hisao's acting, as well as him *actually freaking asking for consent instead of realizing the day after he never did*, but the outcome and the results seem right, if painful and awkward.

That's basically what I was trying to say. I don't have an issue at all with there being sex in that scene. I was just saying it doesn't flow naturally is all.

[uwa]

Then I played her bad end. That was certainly hard to take emotionally (even if it was somewhat deserved on Hisao's part) and, of course, it felt bad... But when thinking about it afterwords, I kind of wished that had happened on her good route!

This is not unlike some thoughts I had about her path. After playing the good end, I liked her path but thought it was too simple and straightforward. Then I played the bad end, and liked both the character and the path much more. I do kind of wish there was a way to see some of that fire* in her good end.

* yes, I noticed that too

[Rivan]

See I have no problem at all with having sexy time with Hanako. My issue is having sexy time immediately after Hanako literally bared it all.

It is just a very jarring thing, and I myself wasn't ready for it to happen that quickly.

Basically, I think my only real problem with Hanako's sex scene was it wasn't properly segued into it. Hell I don't even think there was any segue at all! It was basically Hanako showing the full extent of her scars and then straight into sexy time.

I think if it was better segued people on a whole would be more accepting of it.

... Basically, it's her getting naked, him listening to the story, him realizing she is attractive and all, him acting on his hormones and the situation resolving into a painful but correct way for them to get closer.

Sure, Hisao's reasoning could be described in a better way than just "curves" and "gosh, I'm so aroused right now", the problem is, this is the NATURAL reaction and reasoning. Frankly speaking, it's also something Hanako partially hopes for - to treat her normally and the way he would any other girl in this situation.

And let's face it. When a girl who is attractive to you closes the doors and separates the room from the outside world, and then suddenly gets naked in front of you, your first, second, or third impulse will be *have sex with her!*.

Unless you have a very low libido, or serious hormonal issues. Or if you are a White Knight that could never despoil his beloved girl so. Which is basically what Hanako is succesful in curing Hisao of.

Now, I agree the scene should be longer and include a little more explanation for Hisao's acting, as well as him *actually freaking asking for consent instead of realizing the day after he never did*, but the outcome and the results seem right, if painful and awkward.

That's basically what I was trying to say. I don't have an issue at all with there being sex in that scene. I was just saying it doesn't flow naturally is all.

I think it does, it's just slightly brutal and never fully explained.
The worst Hisao could do at that point is to completely reject Hanako especially if he fueled it through the White Knight syndrome and said some crap like he couldn't despoil a delicate flower like she is.

The best Hisao could do is to make Hanako acknowledge he has seen her as more of a friend for some time, make it clear to her that he wants her in that way and make sure she understands both the consequences as well as the situation and agrees to it.

He takes the middle route. Falls to his own instincts and goes after her with very little being said. It works out, in the end, but in a painful way.
It is quite possibly exactly how the author intended it to be, but I also wish Hisao's own actions were slightly more elaborated upon, even if that was the exact same way the scene would play out even so.

[gecko]

If they'd wanted to integrate the scene in more with the themes of the route, maybe they could have done something like this:

Hanako reveals herself, Hisao goes the 'You're a wonderful person' route, and then Hanako (subtly or otherwise) makes it clear she's ready to have sex.

Hisao is about to refuse because it is clearly not the right time, but then a thought goes through his mind like 'What if she thinks I'm saying no because of her scars?' and says yes because he doesn't want to hurt her self-image even more (and completely unaware of why Hanako was offering sex in the first place)'

Bonus points because it makes the scene even more awkward for everyone involved.

I see we're of the same mind. I didn't object to the scene, just to the lack of explicit consent from Hanako (undressing wasn't a sexual signal for me, because it was to show her scars).
I wouldn't even have needed the Hisao internal debate (he's a teenager in front of the girl he loves and she's nearly naked, I think we can easily imagine him getting hot quickly), just a little word or gesture from Hanako.

[nyttyn]

After doing Hanako's route a second time, I think I agree with Rivan. It felt like the right thing to do, so to speak. It was a bit hard to concentrate due to how seemingly sudden it was, but after reading over it and thinking hard, it really did seem.... human, for lack of better words.

[Brogurt]

>Holy shit she's showing me all of her scarring
>And telling me the whole story of the fire
>This must be an intimate moment for her
>Maybe I could show her a bit more empathy than just groping her so that I can get a boner, using her to get myself off, and then taking a kickass nap
>Maybe, instead of me having sex, we could have sex

Holy shit I don't even know what to do with all this leftover brainpower

[Rivan]

>Holy shit she's showing me all of her scarring
>And telling me the whole story of the fire
>This must be an intimate moment for her
>Maybe I could show her a bit more empathy than just groping her so that I can get a boner, using her to get myself off, and then taking a kickass nap
>Maybe, instead of me having sex, we could have sex

Holy shit I don't even know what to do with all this leftover brainpower

If you tell somebody they're a wonderful person, you tend to follow up on that.
When you kiss somebody who is naked, it is not exactly the moment where your mind suddenly gets clarified and you realize everything that must be done in order for your relationship with that person to work out.

Last but not least, you don't get naked [when female] in front of a heterosexual member of the male sex who also happens to be a virgin teenager and expect nothing like that will happen, or come to his head. If you do, you make it clear that you're not suggesting anything sexual.

Unless you're an idiot. I'm pretty sure Hisao didn't think Hanako was an idiot.

His acting wasn't the best he could do, but it was easily in the scope of *natural*. You're even not being fair with him - he never had a sexual experience before and initially, he tried to do everything right (not rushing with penetration too much, using protection, etcetera, etc.).

It's not like "your argument is invalid" but you're clearly being far too judgemental, critical and over-the-top with your judgement of Hisao's actions.

[Brogurt]

If you tell somebody they're a wonderful person, you tend to follow up on that.

By treating said person like a Tenga?

he tried to do everything right

That's not even close to what happened. He could have, I dunno, maybe told her that he loved her or something? Just a thought...

using protection

The condom was for him just as much as it was for her.

not rushing with penetration too much

Pffffhahaha


And let me reiterate: The problem was not that they fucked. It's that Hisao acted like a goddamned troglodyte prior to and during the encounter. He was nowhere near this much of a faggot when it comes to the other girls, if Anonymous is to believed, and this royal FUBAR was beyond what could happen due to virgin inexperience.

[Rivan]

If you tell somebody they're a wonderful person, you tend to follow up on that.

By treating said person like a Tenga?

he tried to do everything right

That's not even close to what happened. He could have, I dunno, maybe told her that he loved her or something? Just a thought...

using protection

The condom was for him just as much as it was for her.

not rushing with penetration too much

Pffffhahaha


And let me reiterate: The problem was not that they fucked. It's that Hisao acted like a goddamned troglodyte prior to and during the encounter. He was nowhere near this much of a faggot when it comes to the other girls, if Anonymous is to believed, and this royal FUBAR was beyond what could happen due to virgin inexperience.

Either one of us has something the other can only perceive as a terrible flaw of perception, or you somehow expected a little too much either in way of romantism of the scene or from Hisao as far as both experience and self-control go. I don't know what exactly you did expect, but let me reiterate as well :
1) Hisao kisses Hanako AND tells her she's a wonderful person. It's not like either of them is the most confident and eloquent person on the planet. Hisao may feel that her being more to her than a friend goes without saying at the point, which isn't neccessarily true if you think about it. However, the inner monologue makes it pretty clear he is feeling a bit awkward about the situation, too.

2) Hisao doesn't push Hanako into anything. He just doesn't say much. Hanako doesn't, either. She suggests she complies by virtue of her actions - she nods to him, sits between his legs, doesn't act shocked or horryfied of his touch, never says no. Hisao should've made sure she is more comfortable with the idea, but in no way can I understand your position that he treats her like some fake vagina or "behaves like a troglodyte".

3) I don't get your condom point. Still, it was the right thing to do, yet you make it seem like it was even below minimum consideration in a sea of wrongness.

4) Not "pfahahahaha". It's not like Hisao read a manual on how to eat girl out or ever had sex with a virgin. It's not like he knows all Hanako's sensitive spots by virtue of Byakugan or whatever.
And it's not like he charges at her with his penis breaking through her clothes and raping her. Gosh, i don't know how elaborate of a foreplay did you expect from a scene that isn't supposed to take 2 hours of real time. He tries to stimulate her (which is the right thing to do), and even gets the idea he might be going the wrong way about it, until his own observation confirms he may not.

"For a while, I don't think it helps her get into the mood at all, but slowly (...) and her body seems to relax into mine.

He then stimulates her lower parts as well and the entire scene seems to be suggesting so far, she's at least somewhat aroused if not enjoying herself.

To Hisao's lack of credit, he screws it up later, but honestly, it seems to be a thing that happens in most virgin/virgin couples.
I don't get where you're coming from with total Hisao bashing. He could've (and should have) done better, more, with more intimacy, and more care.

But it's not like he acted the way you seem to be seeing it.
Unless we really are to believe Hanako is a sacred object, then he screwed up big time. I suppose you don't share the same amount of care for Hisao and Shizune scene, where the treatment seems to be reversed to an extent.

[themocaw]

If a girl takes off her clothes for you, lays her most inner self bare, and tells you she loves you, having sex with her is NOT disrespectful.

[Brogurt]

I can't believe I'm doing this
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[Brogurt]

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Read these. Tell me what you see.
The master of romance hard at work, I'd imagine?