Female real Hisao

[russianspy1234]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... ition.html

[Minister of Gloom]

Well... that sucks. Just try to imagine how the boy must be feeling now, though. Nasty thing, hidden, potentially fatal heart conditions.

[Leotrak]

Had already been posted here, but I suppose it might merit having its own thread...

[Shades of gray]

Had already been posted here, but I suppose it might merit having its own thread...

eh, I have no probs seeing it given its own topic.

Sudden Arrhythmic/Adult Death Syndrome (SADS)

kinda sad really, Poor lass has her first kiss then dies. but I would like to point out two things :

1) The guy phoned the parents first (to ask if she had epileptic)
2) and AFTER that he phones 999 and gets instructed on how to perform CPR over the phone, which as any doctor nurse or paramedic will tell you, is a learned skill and if done wrong can kill.

he did the right things, just in the wrong order, first call should have been to 999, regardless of anything else.

[Mirage_GSM]

Well, epillepsy was a pretty good guess for a layman. You wouldn't expect a heart attack with an 18-year old...
What surprises me more is that he had to be told how o do CPR over the phone. I don't know about Great Britain, but here in Germany everyone has to do a basic first aid course (including CPR) when he applies for his driver's licence. Most people forget the details over the years, but this can't have been too far in the past for that guy.

[Leotrak]

No such thing like it in the Netherlands, Mirage... O.o Granted, I could easily enough take a class with my mom for it... She teaches first aid, hehe

[Minister of Gloom]

Well, epillepsy was a pretty good guess for a layman. You wouldn't expect a heart attack with an 18-year old...
What surprises me more is that he had to be told how o do CPR over the phone. I don't know about Great Britain, but here in Germany everyone has to do a basic first aid course (including CPR) when he applies for his driver's licence. Most people forget the details over the years, but this can't have been too far in the past for that guy.

Same as here. You get first aid lessons in the tenth grade, than more lessons in boot camp (one of the advantages of universal conscription, I guess). Not everybody takes those lessons to heart, but mostly, you can be pretty sure that no matter where you are in Israel there is someone very close nearby (possibly you) who knows how to deal with such situations, at least very basically (CPR and such. You still have to call an ambulance, it's not like we are all doctors or something)

From a quick Google, it seems that such lessons are not mandatory in the UK, although I may have missed something.
Note that even if he did know some method of keeping her alive until the medics came, it's very possible for someone his (my...) age in such a situation to just be too shocked and panicked to do anything. A while back I was walking down the street with some friends when one of them had a small epileptic seizure thing. Shamefully enough, I was paralyzed, even though I theoretically know what to do. Sudden stress makes your mind go blank.

[Shades of gray]

I was taught CPR as part of school (funny enough, it was grouped with Sex and health Ed... never realized that the school thought we were going to kill each other "gettin it on") and also as part of the ATC (Air Training Corps, which sadly I left due to my kidneys packing in).

so ive had to be taught it twice, and I know for fact that improper application can and will kill. having said that, i also know that here in the UK it isn't mandatory for schools or driving ed to teach it. thankfully i've never had to use CPR myself, but i do know how to perform it.

[Mirage_GSM]

A while back I was walking down the street with some friends when one of them had a small epileptic seizure thing. Shamefully enough, I was paralyzed, even though I theoretically know what to do. Sudden stress makes your mind go blank.

Not much you can do until the seizure has passed - except for removing potentially dangerous objects from the person's vicinity.
And of course calling 112 or 911 or whatever the applicable number may be in your country.

...so ive had to be taught [CPR] twice, and I know for fact that improper application can and will kill...

True, but...
a) A person in need of CPR is pretty much dead anyway without it, and
b) you'd have to be doing it VERY wrong (or be very unlucky) do cause deadly damage.

I'm in the Red Cross and have basic CPR training at least once a year, but so far I haven't had to use it in an emergency. If any of the following should be wrong, please correct me - we do have a medical advisor on these forums, don't we?

The indication for starting a CPR is if the patient has stopped breathing and has no pulse, i.e. their heart has stopped beating. In this condition they will suffer permanent brain damage in a matter of minutes and die shortly afterwards if no CPR is given.
During CPR you might break a rib or two, especially if the person is elderly and his sternum is brittle (one of my instructors once told me there's no correctly performed CPR without broken ribs, but I'd like to think that was an exaggeration).
If you're unlucky, a broken rib might puncture a lung, but even that is preferable to no CPR being given at all. They can fix a punctured lung in the hospital but not a brain that has been without oxygen for too long.
Off-hand I can't think of anything else that could go wrong under normal circumstances (i.e. if you've trained it at some point in your life and roughly know what you're doing). If you miss the correct spot by a few cm, the worst case is that the CPR won't be as effective as it could be, and I think most people would be more likely to not press hard enough for fear of doing damage than they would be to press too hard. I don't know any statistics about the latter, though.
What's more in Germany "Unterlassene Hilfeleitung" is a criminal offense, meaning that you have a Duty to Help someone as long as helping wouldn't put yourself in danger or you have other duties that prevent you from helping, i.e. a mother looking after small children. (When I just looked it up to find out the english term, I was quite surprised that this doesn't seem to be the case in the US...)
Anyway, here, while you could be sued if you just walked on by, you couldn't be sued if you tried to help by giving CPR even if you did make a mistake and caused an injury.
In short, you can't make a patient without heartbeat any worse, so by all means give them CPR.

[Bara]

What's more in Germany "Unterlassene Hilfeleitung" is a criminal offense, meaning that you have a Duty to Help someone as long as helping wouldn't put yourself in danger or you have other duties that prevent you from helping, i.e. a mother looking after small children. (When I just looked it up to find out the english term, I was quite surprised that this doesn't seem to be the case in the US...)
Anyway, here, while you could be sued if you just walked on by, you couldn't be sued if you tried to help by giving CPR even if you did make a mistake and caused an injury.
In short, you can't make a patient without heartbeat any worse, so by all means give them CPR.

Whereas in the US they had to pass "Good Samaritan" laws to protect professional medical caregivers and regular passerbys that do try to give assistance from being sued by either the victim or their heirs. (Frackin' ambulance chaser lawyers and their scum sucking "clients". A Pox upon them all I say!)
But your right about the rest Mirage; as far as I know, in the US there is no legal requirement for anyone not a medical care provider to give assistance. (I don't claim to be knowledgeable of laws in all 50 states of the US, it's commonwealths and territories.)

[Darlat]

Why do americans seem so happy about suing eachother either way?

[AapoAlas]

Darlat: I think it's something to do with the water. (Or [wodö] if you're from down south.)

On the topic: Finland also has this same kind of law (to be completely accurate, it's listed separately in a couple of places in the law), called "Auttamisvelvollisuus" or "Duty to Help". Basically it's said in the law that every person passing by is required to try and help up to his capabilities. Includes CPR, moving bodies from harm's way and phoning 112 (equivalent on 911).
A lot of Finns are taught CPR but it's not a required skill nor is it taught in driving school. Some basics and how to act at a car crash site are taught, though.
In the army, however, and in civil service, pretty much everybody is taught the basic class of "First Aid 1". Mind you, in Finland about 66% of young men go to the army, conscription is forced. Alternatives to the army are 1) civil service, 2) totalitarism ie. prison, 3) medical reasons, you get excused while the country is in peace.
Thus most Finnish men do know CPR.

EDIT: I completely forgot to mention, I don't think there's a punishment in place for just passing by, maybe some fines, but nothing serious. Not sure if that's a good thing or not.

[Sajomir]

A while back I was walking down the street with some friends when one of them had a small epileptic seizure thing. Shamefully enough, I was paralyzed, even though I theoretically know what to do. Sudden stress makes your mind go blank.

Not much you can do until the seizure has passed - except for removing potentially dangerous objects from the person's vicinity.
And of course calling 112 or 911 or whatever the applicable number may be in your country.

...so ive had to be taught [CPR] twice, and I know for fact that improper application can and will kill...

True, but...
a) A person in need of CPR is pretty much dead anyway without it, and
b) you'd have to be doing it VERY wrong (or be very unlucky) do cause deadly damage.

While I agree with your points, it can be very risky to the person *giving* CPR if they do it wrong. As stupid as it may sound, at least in the United States, I've heard something like if a person does CPR wrong and it does hurt the victim, they can get sued big-time for not leaving it to a professional. I'm sure the guy getting instructions on the phone in this story would be fine no matter what, but if, say, a passerby just had a vague idea of CPR and tried it on their own, they could get in trouble for not getting help from someone who knows how to do it properly.
(if I'm wrong, or something has changed recently, please correct me!)

[G3n0c1de]

While I agree with your points, it can be very risky to the person *giving* CPR if they do it wrong. As stupid as it may sound, at least in the United States, I've heard something like if a person does CPR wrong and it does hurt the victim, they can get sued big-time for not leaving it to a professional. I'm sure the guy getting instructions on the phone in this story would be fine no matter what, but if, say, a passerby just had a vague idea of CPR and tried it on their own, they could get in trouble for not getting help from someone who knows how to do it properly.
(if I'm wrong, or something has changed recently, please correct me!)

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that leads a lot of people to the "It's not my problem" syndrome. (Yes there is a technical name for that, and no I can't think of it this early in the morning.) I can see how hesitation might work if the injured person is conscious, and has say, a back injury, or some other injury where moving them is ill-advised. The correct thing to do is not touch them and go for help. But what if there is some sort of danger, such as a spreading fire? If you wait for help to come and assess the situation, it might be too late. If you do move them, you may end up causing more damage, and it may turn out that you didn't need to move them in the first place. There is no right answer in this situation, it is a judgment call. But I'd sure hate to get my pants sued off just because I was trying to help. And yet, I'd also hate to have to put a disclaimer before my attempt to help. "Do you agree to the help that I am about to give, and that it is at your own risk that I render assistance. Furthermore, you are fully aware that this act may cause further injury to your person, and I am not legally responsible for and additional injuries inflicted." Just no. I guess a good third option would be to ask the emergency service operator. That way the decision is out of your hands.

But there should be absolutely no decision to be made if the person is not breathing or has no pulse. They are not awake to give or deny consent. You do NOT have the time to wait around for the paramedics to arrive and perform CPR. In this case, damage is guaranteed if you don't do anything. If you do help, you could save the person, they could still die, or anywhere in between, but they have a much greater chance of surviving if you help than when you don't.

[Mirage_GSM]

I can't see you being sued for giving CPR in any country.
Like I said, if a person is in need of CPR, they are for all practical purposes already dead or will be in a matter of minutes.
If you do give CPR and they don't survive, you didn't make them worse, so there should be no grounds for a lawsuit.
If they do survive and you broke a few of their ribs... Well someone who sues the person who saved their life must be the biggest asshole under the sun. Over here, no court would even accept a lawsuit. No idea about the US.
As for waiting for a professional... Where I live it takes an average of 10-15 minutes for emergency services to get to a location. This is an urban environment with good coverage. In rural areas it can be up to half an hour, and I guess in the US the distances are greater still.
If someone has been without a heartbeat for 15 Minutes, you don't even need to start CPR because it's useless. Most medics will do it anyway, because they can't be sure how long the patient has been without pulse or simply for the sake of the relatives. (Also because normal medics are not allowed by law to declare someone dead, so unless the head is detached from the body or rigor mortis has already set in, they have to do it until a doctor arrives at the scene.)
So, if the patient doesn't happen to go into cardiac arrest next to a trained medic, CPR by a layperson is probably his only chance for survival.