Which Hisao is your favourite?

[Xanatos]

Oh, you mean that future where she deliberately destroys herself, is obviously not going to be happy and suffer for it, and more than likely eventually commits suicide? Yeah. She throws that away, as any sensible human being would. The last thing Rin should be is an artist because art for her isn't a hobby so much as a coping device that only accentuates her issues. Anyone who played her route completely should realize this.

I'd say you're both missing the point

His point was she "throws away her future" in her good end. My point was that the alleged future in question would by all accounts have completely sucked and was better off thrown away. Which point was missed?

Hisao never destroys Rin in the good end. He changes Rin but that does not destroy her. She is still Rin. In the bad end, he is guilty only by proxy. She presumably destroys herself but he lets it happen. In the neutral end, her destruction is left ambiguous as to whether or not it even happens. The bad ending suggests she would inevitably succeed and possibly in a more physical sense. The neutral ending leaves it less certain but it's clear if she doesn't destroy herself, she will still almost certainly stagnate, which does not necessarily entail destruction but prevents evolution. The change Hisao brings in the good ending prevents her destruction. She is not forced to give up any 'self' nor does she do so. Her self changes naturally due to the events in the arc and she embraces the change. That is not destruction. That is evolution.

All of the bad endings are either destruction or stagnation. The good endings are about evolution.

Act 1
Bad: Hisao is destroyed in an all too literal sense. The festival is probably ruined too.

Rin
Bad: She locks herself away in that room, set to continue on a destructive path.
Neutral: She takes a scholarship for art which sounds good enough but it's clear she will not be happy. She will stagnate, never quite being destroyed but never moving past her need for understanding.
Good: She evolves beyond the need for understanding. If it comes, it comes. If not, she can still be happy.

Emi
Bad: She drives Hisao away and continues her life always at arm's length. Stagnation.
Good: She evolves past this and opens up fully to Hisao.

Hanako
Bad: Her outburst reveals resentment and even hatred, driving Hisao away and presumably Lilly as well. As much as fans like to speculate, the end makes it pretty clear this isn't a "maybe she recovers" ordeal. That door is closed, both literally and figuratively. Destruction.
Neutral: She goes on as usual, remaining distant to both Lilly and Hisao. Stagnation.
Good: She opens up to Hisao and presumably moreso to Lilly and others in the future. Evolution.

Shizune
Bad: Her temperament and combative nature destroy her relationships with Misha and, by extension, Hisao.
Good: She grows beyond her constant combative, overbearing nature. What effect this has is largely speculative (apparently intended by the writer) but she does change for the better.

Lilly
...Honestly, I don't even know. The conflict in her route is mostly Hisao.

[Oddball]

Lilly
...Honestly, I don't even know. The conflict in her route is mostly Hisao.

Let me continue the pattern for ya'.

Lilly
Bad Lilly does what her family wants without question, putting her prim and proper apperance and what other expect of her over what she wants. In the future she's probably going to continue following her parents orders without challenging them. Stagnation.
Good Lilly accepts that it's actually okay to do what she wants to do, even if it's not the "safe" or "proper" thing to do and that it's okay to actually open up to people instead of keeping up a facade of being perfect and in control. Evolution.

[Xanatos]

Lilly
...Honestly, I don't even know. The conflict in her route is mostly Hisao.

Let me continue the pattern for ya'.

Lilly
Bad Lilly does what her family wants without question, putting her prim and proper apperance and what other expect of her over what she wants. In the future she's probably going to continue following her parents orders without challenging them. Stagnation.
Good Lilly accepts that it's actually okay to do what she wants to do, even if it's not the "safe" or "proper" thing to do and that it's okay to actually open up to people instead of keeping up a facade of being perfect and in control. Evolution.

Ah...That's a flaw in her route and Shizune's, I think. Neither seems to have any real conflict until the last act, and mostly near the latter half at that.

[StillHere3603]

Lilly
...Honestly, I don't even know. The conflict in her route is mostly Hisao.

Let me continue the pattern for ya'.

Lilly
Bad Lilly does what her family wants without question, putting her prim and proper apperance and what other expect of her over what she wants. In the future she's probably going to continue following her parents orders without challenging them. Stagnation.
Good Lilly accepts that it's actually okay to do what she wants to do, even if it's not the "safe" or "proper" thing to do and that it's okay to actually open up to people instead of keeping up a facade of being perfect and in control. Evolution.

It's debatable whether it's that or if Lily really did want to go back to Inverness and be with her family but Hisao just guilt-tripped her to stay through his heart attacks and begging.

In Hisao's inner monlogue before he runs to her, he notes that her going to Inverness the first time around was something that she genuinely wanted and that he failed to understand that before. Also, Lily does go back to Inverness permanently unless Hisao runs after her and nearly kills himself with a heart attack again (basically the guilt-tripping sympathy thing).

[OtakuNinja]

It's debatable whether it's that or if Lily really did want to go back to Inverness and be with her family but Hisao just guilt-tripped her to stay through his heart attacks and begging.

I am of the same opinion, although I would like to clarify a few things. To start with, Lilly's real wish is for her family to be whole again, and for both her parents to care about her as a person instead of just hiding her away or raising her to be their representative at social gatherings. She doesn't necessarily want to move to Inverness, and especially not in the middle of her last year in high school. Then again, a lot of the information we get about her family comes from Akira. And Akira, understandably, really dislikes her parents and wants to break free from them completely. I get the strong feeling she's only going back to support Lilly. Otherwise she wouldn't give a damn and continue living with her boyfriend in Japan. Maybe even quit her job at the family company.

As for Hisao, I think it's possible that he guilt-tripped her into something. Whether that something is standing up for herself or staying against her will, I leave to each and every one of you to decide for yourselves. Despite it being the route I am most familiar with, it is also the one I feel is most open to interpretation. Their whole relationship could be seen as two people seeking distraction from their troubles, or as the sweetest romantic story on Earth. That's part of why I enjoy it.

[StillHere3603]

It's debatable whether it's that or if Lily really did want to go back to Inverness and be with her family but Hisao just guilt-tripped her to stay through his heart attacks and begging.

I am of the same opinion, although I would like to clarify a few things. To start with, Lilly's real wish is for her family to be whole again, and for both her parents to care about her as a person instead of just hiding her away or raising her to be their representative at social gatherings. She doesn't necessarily want to move to Inverness, and especially not in the middle of her last year in high school. Then again, a lot of the information we get about her family comes from Akira. And Akira, understandably, really dislikes her parents and wants to break free from them completely. I get the strong feeling she's only going back to support Lilly. Otherwise she wouldn't give a damn and continue living with her boyfriend in Japan. Maybe even quit her job at the family company.

As for Hisao, I think it's possible that he guilt-tripped her into something. Whether that something is standing up for herself or staying against her will, I leave to each and every one of you to decide for yourselves. Despite it being the route I am most familiar with, it is also the one I feel is most open to interpretation. Their whole relationship could be seen as two people seeking distraction from their troubles, or as the sweetest romantic story on Earth. That's part of why I enjoy it.

That's true. We do get most of the information about her parents from a biased source like Akira who has a bad relationship with them. To add on to that, Lily never speaks poorly about her parents though whether she genuinely has a good relationship with them or is simply being polite is up to interpretation. It's interesting how POV and biased sources can change how a story is viewed almost entirely.

I'm reading the Summer's Clover VN right now and it's funny how from the POV of a cool girl tomboy like Miki, Hisao is a boring nerd at least in the start of the game. Contrast that with how we know he's actually a dynamic individual whose everyman personality is compelling rather than dull since we've spent so much time in his head in Katawa Shoujo.

[OtakuNinja]

Thanks for reminding me to read Summer's Clover, I completely forgot about it I also think we get a lot of information about their family in Shizune's route, but it's been almost 10 years since I played it so I don't remember much.

[StillHere3603]

Thanks for reminding me to read Summer's Clover, I completely forgot about it I also think we get a lot of information about their family in Shizune's route, but it's been almost 10 years since I played it so I don't remember much.

I think it's pretty good so far. It has its flaws of course but it captures the feel of the original work while also adding things that feel like improvements which I feel is what's most important.

Wow 10 years. Time flies.

[kschmidty3]

I know that voting is closed but I would say either Shizune of Hanako's route have my favorite Hisao.

In Shizune's route he really starts coming into his own and trying to get himself out of his funk, eventually becoming rather dependable and confidant. I just wish that he did it more for himself instead chasing after Shizune.

Hanako's Hisao takes a bit longer to get there but he really shows that he cares for her, though it's done for misguided reasons, and truly steps up after they both end up making that big mistake of having sex with eachother.

While I'm talking about him I feel like I need to vent about something that's been building up for awhile. Hisao is probably one of my favorite characters in the VN and I think fans are way too hard on him. Does he make mistakes? Absolutely but the girls also make mistakes as well and some of them just as bad as his. Is he dense? A bit but it's nowhere near as awful as some of the other VN protagonists I've seen, I'd describe him more as occasionally clueless. Some of my favorite moments from this VN is watching this poor guy that was dealt a bad hand pull himself out of the rut he's fallen into and become a better person from the experience.

Sorry for any mistakes in grammar and going off on that tangent. I'm not good at writing and topics about Hisao really interest me.

[StillHere3603]

I know that voting is closed but I would say either Shizune of Hanako's route have my favorite Hisao.

In Shizune's route he really starts coming into his own and trying to get himself out of his funk, eventually becoming rather dependable and confidant. I just wish that he did it more for himself instead chasing after Shizune.

Hanako's Hisao takes a bit longer to get there but he really shows that he cares for her, though it's done for misguided reasons, and truly steps up after they both end up making that big mistake of having sex with eachother.

While I'm talking about him I feel like I need to vent about something that's been building up for awhile. Hisao is probably one of my favorite characters in the VN and I think fans are way too hard on him. Does he make mistakes? Absolutely but the girls also make mistakes as well and some of them just as bad as his. Is he dense? A bit but it's nowhere near as awful as some of the other VN protagonists I've seen, I'd describe him more as occasionally clueless. Some of my favorite moments from this VN is watching this poor guy that was dealt a bad hand pull himself out of the rut he's fallen into and become a better person from the experience.

Sorry for any mistakes in grammar and going off on that tangent. I'm not good at writing and topics about Hisao really interest me.

Hmm I agree mostly with your defense of Hisao. He is generally emotionally intelligent though there's a wide range among the routes. He can be stupid and reference letting Emi's secrets "lay in the grave" in the context of her deceased father or he can be smart and maintain a steady balance with Jigoro by both standing up for himself and being assertive while not crossing a red line.

Regarding my favorite Hisao as you can maybe guess, it's certainly Shizune with the good ending. Smart level-headed reliable guy. So many points where he could have ruined things but didn't because he held off judgement.

A couple examples are when they're building stalls for Tanabata and Shizune butts head with Lily again or when Shizune explains her (arrogant) thought process after the chess game with Hanako.

Also just him appreciating Misha's friendship when a lot of people would write her off in his position. Him not crossing an especially red line with Jigoro either. Emi's Hisao certainly would have.

He even managed to understand the rare gesture of good-will by Jigoro at the end when he comes to the school and asks if Shizune wants to come on a trip with him.

Can't forget his mature response to Iwanako's letter and hearing out Kenji's surprisingly good advice on coping with it either. I could go on and on.

[OtakuNinja]

Regarding my favorite Hisao as you can maybe guess, it's certainly Shizune with the good ending. Smart level-headed reliable guy. So many points where he could have ruined things but didn't because he held off judgement.

Because we didn't get the options to do so. The pros and cons of having a route with a single choice at the end. Would have loved to see more variation in that route.

[Oddball]

Because we didn't get the options to do so.

This is one of the reasons I like that version of Hisao the least.

He never takes any initiative. He takes no actions on his own. Everything he does is because Shizune tells him to do that. In Act 1, Hisao has to push things and take chances to get on Shizune's path. Once he's done that, that's it. I think it's also worth noting that Shizune's good end is the only ending where he still isn't completely sure of his relationship. Hisao may have messed up in places in other routes, but he at least tries to do something. He actually took chances in the other people's routes and won them over (if he made the right choices). With the end of Shizune's path he feels like he's just shrugging and going "well, I guess I'll just keep following her."

A couple examples are when they're building stalls for Tanabata and Shizune butts head with Lily again or when Shizune explains her (arrogant) thought process after the chess game with Hanako.

Shizune needs to be challenged and the fact that Hisao never tried to challenge her is probabaly why neither of them ever feel like they grow as characters. The way she handles people is horrible and even towards the end of her route she mentions it. Hisao just lets her get away with it though.

[StillHere3603]

Because we didn't get the options to do so.

This is one of the reasons I like that version of Hisao the least.

He never takes any initiative. He takes no actions on his own. Everything he does is because Shizune tells him to do that. In Act 1, Hisao has to push things and take chances to get on Shizune's path. Once he's done that, that's it. I think it's also worth noting that Shizune's good end is the only ending where he still isn't completely sure of his relationship. Hisao may have messed up in places in other routes, but he at least tries to do something. He actually took chances in the other people's routes and won them over (if he made the right choices). With the end of Shizune's path he feels like he's just shrugging and going "well, I guess I'll just keep following her."

A couple examples are when they're building stalls for Tanabata and Shizune butts head with Lily again or when Shizune explains her (arrogant) thought process after the chess game with Hanako.

Shizune needs to be challenged and the fact that Hisao never tried to challenge her is probabaly why neither of them ever feel like they grow as characters. The way she handles people is horrible and even towards the end of her route she mentions it. Hisao just lets her get away with it though.

I disagree that he never takes initative. He's the one who learns sign language without Shizune's knowing. He's the one who directly confesses at Tanabata. No hesitation or awkwardness about it. Compare that to him going crazy in his head over whether Emi liked him instead of just asking her. He's the one who asks to go to her house even when they initially don't tell him about the trip. Again compare that to Emi being the one to invite Hisao to her house instead of him asking her first. He even goes out of his way to get through to Misha to try to mend Shizune and Misha's relationship. It's just that with all of this proactiveness, Shizune has a lot of baggage even if it isn't obvious like Emi or Hanako. Hisao does a great job of balancing being helpful and proactive without being pushy and invasive. It just doesn't make sense for him to recklessly question Shizune's family life and principles especially when the full length of the route is just one school year, barely anything in the grand scheme of things. Going gung-ho into her personal life especially after meeting such a toxic influence like Jigoro is unwise. It would be bad if he didn't know all of the specifics but in the route, he barely knows any of the specifics. It takes time.

Regarding what you've said about Shizune's good ending being the only one where Hisao is unsure of their relationship and how that's bad, I feel that's a misguided take. He's unsure because there's so much more to be known about Shizune and he's excited to be on that journey. He isn't content with simply following her. In fact, he acknowledges that he's largely been following her this whole time and now wants to catch up to her because he respects and admires her drive and ambition. He sees her as a role model despite all her flaws with people which are addressed and dealt with to great detail earlier on. And Shizune herself makes the committment to change too. After she reveals she's inspired by Misha choosing to go overseas and pursue sign language teaching, she promises to be better with people and also to continue contributing by becoming a philanthropist. Considering how important Misha is to Shizune, why shouldn't Hisao take Shizune at her word on this? Why does Shizune need to be "challenged" and if not, then Hisao is "letting her get away with it"? Is that not pushy behavior which needlessly doubts her promise of self-improvement? The events of the route have turned Hisao into someone who even further appreciates hard work and drive and Shizune into someone who's seen the damage of her flaws and promises to be better with people. And we see little pieces of her self-improvement even at the end. Would the serious Shizune at the start of the game be happy with their "three musketeers" pose or laugh with sound(something she always stifled before)?

Ultimately, I think the writing affords Shizune more agency and development by allowing her to improve herself instead of having that thrust upon by Hisao. And by that token, I think Hisao is great by having the emotional intelligence to not interfere with that self-improvement. To be supportive instead of pushy. When you say he at least tries to do something in the other routes, that's because the dynamic is him being a fixer or healer. He needs to make Emi's trauma go away. He needs to open Hanako up to the world. He needs to help Rin understand that not being understood is still fine. He needs to make Lily realize that her going to Inverness and not coming back is not what she really wants. So with that sort of dynamic set, of course it's a matter of "winning her over" vs "not winning her over". It's not any sort of advantage.

Shizune's route doesn't have that dynamic at all. Hisao isn't a fixer here. He's a guiding force striving to be empathetic and also sensitive to the complexities of Shizune's personal life. It's not his explicit goal to fix Shizune's possible damage from Jigoro's influence or her strained relationship with Lily. He does try to fix the damage in Shizune and Misha's relationship but that's because the problem is partly due to him being in the trio in the first place. And also because he's gotten to know Misha very well in the route. He doesn't know Jigoro or Lily very well by contrast.

People may look at Hisao and Shizune's relationship as lopsided to Shizune because of this expecting him to stage an intervention between Shizune and everyone she's alienated but I feel that's only because the norm is Hisao being the one having to fix things. So when Hisao in this route takes a step back and tries to just be a guiding force of support because he doesn't know all of the specifics and doesn't want to be intrusive, people think he's passive. I just found it refreshing and mature.

[Oddball]

You may have read between the lines and saw some form of improvement, but I didn't.

After a brief moment where she says she's have to start acting better, she continues acting the way she's always acted. That's her whole route. Hisao stands in the background and let's Shizune keep doing the things she's always done.

Saying she wants to be a philanthropist doesn't mean anything. Her goal the whole time was to do things to make others happy, but she repeatedly overlooks the actual people part of the equation and focuses on some imagined end goal. She does the same here. There's an end goal with no realization or real plan on how to get there.

Repairing her relationship with Misha happens so quickly and off screen that they might have just hit a reset button. Again, it lacks any real change, just characters talking about change. As for her playful Three Musketeers pose, she was playful throughout her route.

Hisao's job isn't to fix anyone in any route. He's just trying to help and that's absent in Shizune's.

[Siphonata]

Out of all the Hisaos, I'd say my favourites are Hanako!Hisao and BadEnd!Hisao.
The former is interesting because Hisao and Hanako show mutual interest in each other, and it's the only route where Iwanako's shadow looms large over Hisao's potential relationship. In the bad ending, Hisao's feelings for Hanako turn limerent and he pays the price for his industrial grip on the idiot ball when Hanako rightfully lashes out at Hisao for his pushiness and making her situation about himself. The good ending on the other hand involves him treating Hanako like an actual person instead of an idea to be protected, and that having sex didn't make him and Hanako adults, but their mutual willingness to open up to each other about how they felt. As I see it, if Rin is Hisao's crush and Lily is Hisao's ideal woman, then I suppose that Hanako was what he needed: Someone who could help him out of Iwanako's shadow and finally allow him to properly move on, instead of allowing Iwanako to stay in the back of his mind even as Hisao moved onto other relationships.

As for the latter, Hisao dies due to his own stupidity. Kenji warned him that the fence was dangerous and Hisao stumbled back anyway. It would've been interesting to have a full on route where Hisao doesn't die and becomes the Sancho Panza to Kenji's Don Quixote. Kenji himself is a madman, but he occasionally speaks good sense; Hisao in contrast is saner but in this theoretical route would've completely bought into Kenji's conspiracy theories about the feminist regime. The two boys try to relive their pasts while blaming everyone else for their failure to move on in life, gripped in the thrall of collective madness before eventually being forced to face reality and disavow their former ways.