New Player

[Band of Bones]

I stumbled over Katawa Shoujo just a few days ago and the first thing that I want to tell you is:

Thank you for this painfully beautiful gift.

Actually that is all I want to say until I have recovered from the bad ending with Shizune that I just had. Worst thing was: I knew for some time, but there was no decision coming up anymore to turn things around. It just played out until she sat on the steps with that cat in her bag and me behind this glass wall unable to reach out, because she had shut Hisao out like I did my girlfriend twentyfive years ago.

[Oddball]

I'm curious to hear your reaction to some of the other bad endings when you get them.

[Band of Bones]

I have not gotten too far yet.
But I know how I got down that particular rabbit hole now.
I must confess that I sent Hisao pursuing Shizune because of Misha's presence and I wanted to know if it was possible for him to get with both of them.
Which means my decisions were biased and selfish. By the time I found myself emotionally involved I already had done irreparable damage to their friendship and so I fully deserve the consequences of my actions.

The only other route that I have an ending for is Rin. With her it was just denial, because the one decision that turns everything around is the choice between "I need to understand" and "Explain to me" - after choosing "Understand her" over "support her".
In hindsight I see the difference, though I still maintain that it is just two faces of the same stance - if it was me instead of Hisao, I almost certainly would have said "Explain to me, I need to understand". But after seeing where the halves lead, I can see why somebody else might make that exclusive choices.
Still - after denying the bad ending I found that with Rin even the good ending (if indeed it was) is rather painful. But soo worth it.

Now you have me curious - where is that curiosity coming from? Why just bad endings?

I probably won't touch the game for a while, there is only so much emotion I can handle at any one time, but I will post my impressions as I get to them.

[Mirage_GSM]

if it was me instead of Hisao, I almost certainly would have said "Explain to me, I need to understand". But after seeing where the halves lead, I can see why somebody else might make that exclusive choices.
Still - after denying the bad ending I found that with Rin even the good ending (if indeed it was) is rather painful. But soo worth it.

Well you could also see it as "I need to understand" making it all about HIsao while the other option is trying to be more mindful about Rin's feelings. For me it is one of the few choices in the VN that is... unfortunate.
It doesn't help that this choice leads to a scene that you also get in the path to the good ending, only there instead of being over the story just continues. You don't really get the feeling something actually went wrong.
As for the other ending you saw... Rin's path has two bad endings. If it was raining in the scene you saw then that was the second bad ending.

[Band of Bones]

Thinking about it, this could be one of those situations there you just can't "win" - bad s**t happens no matter what you do.
Given that Rin is involved, this becomes more likely still.
From contact with real-life Asperger people I know that any kind of push can be devastating to them, so actually both choices would be unfortunate if I assume that Rin is dealing with anything like it (which also means I don't have experience with somebody in a state as vulnerable as Rin in that scene).
"Explain to me" remains a direct challenge though.
Something like "Can we try to find a way to make me understand?" might shift the equation though.

It might have rained - I don't remember much beyond the unfullfillable need to protect this courageous, beautiful and fragile soul.

So I will go back to that place as well, in good time.

Thank you for sharing with me, by the way. It helps me appreciate the game a lot more.

[Mirage_GSM]

Well, if Rin left Yamaku it was the second bad end.

[Oddball]

From contact with real-life Asperger people I know that any kind of push can be devastating to them, so actually both choices would be unfortunate if I assume that Rin is dealing with anything like it (which also means I don't have experience with somebody in a state as vulnerable as Rin in that scene).

I've never bought into the idea that Rin had any issues like that.

[Band of Bones]

I've never bought into the idea that Rin had any issues like that.

Well, that depends. You are not human if you don't have any issues like that.
The clinical definition just grabs a bunch of pretty arbitrary human attributes and declares that certain combinations of parameter values in those make you part of the autistic spectrum.
Just shift some of those values a little and you are not crippled by those issues anymore, which does not mean they are completely gone.
The exact parameters and their exact values are subject to change without notice too, as this definition has been and currently is being updated in many jurisdictions (and will be again, with new scientific and political input).

So I won't say that Rin is an Aspergers-person and I won't say she isn't either. I do say her issues (no matter the source) are the same as a lot of those I have seen in people "on the spectrum". The overwhelming need to make contact (and the choice of ineffective measures for that). The resulting anxiety from the feeling (nay knowledge) of not (or very poorly) being understood. And I further say that I would try to approach her based on what I understand to be helpful to those, because in the end we are all just people and if somebody has an issue, the origin should not matter that much in determining a solution as long as the solution is not chemical in nature.
Is that just a case of me trying to rationalize a problem to nailshape because my only tool is a hammer? Or does that actually make sense?

Also these are issues a lot of people right in the middle of society have, but with the amazing capability of the human mind to continue to function under horrifying conditions most remain in a lifelong state of basic unhappiness without ever breaking down or becoming otherwise visible.



Cheers

[Oddball]

I do say her issues (no matter the source) are the same as a lot of those I have seen in people "on the spectrum".

I understand where you're coming from with this part, but

Well, that depends. You are not human if you don't have any issues like that.

This part renders the first point moot.

You've seen some of her issues in people on the spectrum, but you also say everyone has those same issues.

To me declaring her autistic always seemed to be a case of people just trying to come up with an excuse or explanation for who she is rather than just accepting she's a unique person with a different way of looking at or doing things.

[Band of Bones]

Hello again oddball, very sorry this was a complicated post.

To me declaring her autistic always seemed to be a case of people just trying to come up with an excuse or explanation for who she is rather than just accepting she's a unique person with a different way of looking at or doing things.

I am absolutely with you on this one. I would further say that this always applies, no matter the label.

In case you know your bible, this way of handling things starts in the garden of Eden - with Adam running around and giving everything a name. It is also a tradition in magic: Name something and you gain power over it.
Our current way of running societies depends on that: You are a pupil, a construction worker or a mongoloid freak. But never a person.

So basically we are on the same page.

Now to our misunderstanding:
"You are not human if you don't have any issues like that." is a very different statement from "everyone has those same issues" - at least for me it is.

This part of my post is meant to show the fact that everyone can find him- or herself in a situation where they act as described for autistic people. The official medical diagnosis just states that the number of situations there this applies has to exceed a certain threshold (which also differs depending on whether you talk to a doctor trying to get help for a patient or a medical examiner charged with keeping treatments cheap - or a judge trying to make sense of those contradictory positions).
In reverse this also means that there are quite a lot of autistic people who are able to act in a way that you would never suspect they were.
Just not enough to be classed non-autistic.

The tricky thing about autism is this "spectral diagnosis" system. It is all a matter of degree and as stated above with our current mainstream thinking being as dualistic as it is we are ill-equipped to handle that.

Very complicated again, I hope I could clear matters at least a little.

Regards

[Mirage_GSM]

"You are not human if you don't have any issues like that." is a very different statement from "everyone has those same issues" - at least for me it is.

As long as you don't put any quantitative qualifiers on either of those statements they do basically mean the same.
The main difference being "issues like that" in one statement and "the same issues" in the other, but that's not the difference you were going for in your explanation.
So disregarding that, both statements say the same thing from a different angle:
One says "to be X you have to have Y"; the other says "everyone who is X has Y".

[Band of Bones]

Wow, where do those misunderstandings come from? I really seem to think a different language from you.

I do see that I insufficiently communicated that I wasn't explaining the difference between "has any like" and "has those same" though.
For the record: I wasn't explaining the difference, I stated it and moved on.
Sorry to have caused consternation by that.
Instead I tried to go for what I perceived as the root of our misunderstanding, because different as they are, those statements are insufficient to convey my meaning without the quantitative context which I tried to supply in the part of my post after that.
I did so, because in my usage "has those same" denies the existence of a quantitative context while "has any like" remains pretty meaningless whithout it. Also I started to give quantitative context in my post before that, so for me the usage of "has those same" to summarize implied that that had gone unnoticed - which I tried to rectify, because (and that is where we agree) the quantitative context is vital.

If I have not become any clearer, please tell me so and I will try to rebuild my case from the ground up, because right now we seem to be in an "explain to me, I need to understand" kind of situation. Maybe the only thing that this exchange shows is where my fascination with Rin comes from.