Developments (Post-Lilly NE) [Complete, 2015-08-11]

[dewelar]

Thanks for the kind words...jumping in early to respond to a couple of things...

I didn't expect Lilly to be there. It...makes sense, though. And I like what you did with Shizune's mother, even though to the last I will defy that she is Satou. (I know the 1.2 update supposedly fixed that line, but it's so ingrained that I'm not sure I can accept the change. Han shot first, after all.)

I'm curious about this. I'm firmly in the "Han shot first" camp, but not just because of legacy. Han shooting first was a defining part of his character, it made him more interesting. Clumsily adding in a shot from Greedo's gun was an attempt to "clean Han up". Is there something that makes Jigoro and Hiroyuki being brothers better / more interesting to you than Hiroyuki and Mayoi being siblings, or is it just "originalism"?

All in all, it was a good chapter. The Shizune-Lilly dialogue was done rather well, and I like the unique formatting that Shizune gets.[/quote]

I like what you done with the formatting. It fits with the compartmentalized way I believe Shizune would think.

That's exactly what I was going for, so thanks !

On that note:

dewelar's screw-up

Shouldn't the part in []'s be either italicized or in ||'s?

A bit of both actually. It's been fixed now.

I just knew I'd screw up one of those furshlugginer things...

[azumeow]

Thanks for the kind words...jumping in early to respond to a couple of things...

I didn't expect Lilly to be there. It...makes sense, though. And I like what you did with Shizune's mother, even though to the last I will defy that she is Satou. (I know the 1.2 update supposedly fixed that line, but it's so ingrained that I'm not sure I can accept the change. Han shot first, after all.)

I'm curious about this. I'm firmly in the "Han shot first" camp, but not just because of legacy. Han shooting first was a defining part of his character, it made him more interesting. Clumsily adding in a shot from Greedo's gun was an attempt to "clean Han up". Is there something that makes Jigoro and Hiroyuki being brothers better / more interesting to you than Hiroyuki and Mayoi being siblings, or is it just "originalism"?

Nah, it just seemed more natural to me that they'd hate each other as brothers. My brother and I have a pretty screwed-up relationship too, so I guess I just felt that was normal, but I can also see reasons they'd not like each other besides biological relations. I'm not so sure, to be perfectly honest.

[bhtooefr]

Really, it always took horrendously convoluted explanations to make Hiroyuki and Jigoro having different family names while still being brothers make sense - the simplest being that Jigoro took Mayoi's family name, which seems massively out of character. And, "Satou" as a Scottish family name? I think not, so Hiroyuki didn't take Karla's family name.

And, if you correct the error by renaming Jigoro to Jigoro Satou, then you end up having to rename Shizune to Shizune Satou (unless you go with an idea that she's a bastard and never took her father's family name, keeping her mother's family name), and the follow-on effects from there get quite nasty (and all of the impact of the reveal that Shizune and Lilly are cousins is destroyed if they share a family name).

Anyway, I'm doing a line-by-line comparison of 1.1 and 1.2, playing both simultaneously. And, fun fact, you don't actually have to hit every choice point to 100%+graphic 1.1 (there's a few choice points that don't change which scenes you see, they just change a few lines of dialogue), IIRC, so I'll actually be playing KS deeper than I ever have, getting every choice point. (Oh god, I'm dreading actually having to pay attention to every line of Rin's route. I'm going for Shizune first, because that's where I expect the most changes to be.)

[dewelar]

Nah, it just seemed more natural to me that they'd hate each other as brothers. My brother and I have a pretty screwed-up relationship too, so I guess I just felt that was normal, but I can also see reasons they'd not like each other besides biological relations. I'm not so sure, to be perfectly honest.

Fair enough.

Karla

Not in this story, pal. (Sorry, weee, but not buying it.)

[Leaty]

I don't need to be reminded of that. I know of one easy way to change the subject, though. [So how's your girlfriend?]

Loving. This Chapter. So Much.

Okay, so, where to start: I loved Shizune's POV. Like Rin's chapter earlier, I feel like you really did an amazing job of teasing out the most meaningful, understated aspects of Shizune's character. Like Rin, I don't really like Shizune all that much in her own route (or in Act One, for that matter, which is something that's having a deleterious effect on my own productivity,) but I love the more thoughtful, caring side of her that appears in other routes, where she doesn't have the liberty to strangle everybody in the room with the force of her personality. So this chapter was a delight to me, because Shizune spends the entire thing with Student Council Tyrant Mode turned off, and you really get to see that affectionate side of her shine through. I love when Shizune and Lilly get along, and seeing her go to such lengths to help out her cousin was very moving and sweet.

But where you really blasted off here was with Mayoi, holy shit. I try to consider a lot of character interpretations that nobody's really explored, but to my embarrassment it had never even occurred to me in passing that Mayoi might still be alive. I just took it for granted that she was dead because you're not allowed to be a girl at Yamaku Academy without some kind of tragic backstory unless you're Rin. I genuinely expected Oscar Wildecat's prediction to be true—that Lilly was hiding in the tea shop—so for her to have actually been staying with Shizune's mom just blew me away. And I love it. It's wonderful.

And you deserve all the credit for making me look at Shizune in a different light; seeing how she is with her mother makes me think of her (and her whole family, really) in a completely new way. Not gonna lie; my problem with Shizune as a character lies with the weirdness of her supporting cast. Jigoro is the worst offender, with his infamously over-the-top personality, but Hideaki and Misha have their problems, too. Having them around made it really hard for me to relate to Shizune or anything in her route. So in this chapter it's almost like Mayoi is the missing piece; having her around both explains everything and makes it a lot better. (Like, in light of the revelations about Mayoi, it seems so much more likely that Hideaki would be the way he is, as well.)

That Shizune (and the other members of her family we see in the VN) doesn't like to speak of/visit her mother because of a lingering discomfort with her mother's sexuality makes a lot of sense—we've already seen how Shizune prefers to avoid complicated personal situations, particularly where sexuality and gender identity are concerned, and undoubtedly Jigoro doesn't like to speak of her because of how badly the idea of his wife and the mother of his children leaving him for a woman (or leaving him, then dating a woman) threatens his masculinity. (This probably explains a lot about his behavior in the VN, too.) And it's so easy to relate to both Mayoi and Shizune here; you can tell that Mayoi is saddened by her daughter's inability to open up to her and frustrated with the state of her family. At the same time, we know that Shizune isn't exactly good at opening up to anybody. (Now that I think about it, it's interesting that Shizune's relationship with Mayoi is so similar to Emi's relationship with Meiko. Both take after their fathers and maintain a large emotional distance with their mothers.*)

On a side note, it's kind of sweet that Lilly was able to find refuge at her aunt's house. Given that Mayoi is her dad's sister, it's a bit heartwarming that Lilly has at least someone in Japan to provide her with maternal affection when she needs it. I really hope that we get a chance to see Lilly and Mayoi interact a bit more later on down the line. And, obviously, it makes tons of sense that Misha likes Mayoi and wants to spend more time around her. Though, as Shizune observed, it certainly puts her and her mother in an awkward position.

Lastly, I love that Mayoi beats Shizune at Rock-Paper-Scissors. And once I picked up on the reference to the Bush-Cheney shirt, I giggled.

*Moms don't really get a fair shake in KS, honestly. Hanako seems to have been a daddy's girl when her parents were alive (not that she doesn't miss both of them, but...) and Rin's parents barely even matter. Even Lilly seems to think about her dad more often than her mom. I tried to flip this around a little bit with Iwanako, but of course Yoshizumi causes quite a bit of grief in her own right...

[dewelar]

Leighton Meester likes this and stuff

You know, it's a few hours early where I am, but this is the anniversary present this fic never thought it would get. I don't think I can compose a coherent reply just yet, but...thanks. Just...thanks.

[brythain]

Many thanks for a wonderful chapter with elegant solutions and a lovely Mayoi. Took me a while to get used to |…| <…> […] and italics all in one place, but it was worth it.

[Minion of Chaos]

Achievement Get: Add an Awesome New Wrinkle

Agreed that the dialogue formatting between thoughts, phone, sign, and deaf-blind sign was a bit odd at first, but it can be adapted to quickly. Great work with this Shizune interpretation. I guess all the other reasons were stated or stated eloquently and well (Leaty).

This fic continues to put a smile on my face whenever I see that a new chapter is up

[Guest Poster]

Not in this story, pal. (Sorry, weee, but not buying it.)

Admittedly, Karla is officially not a Scottish name, but Yamaku and Iwanako are officially not Japanese names either.

BTW, very nice twist with Mayoi, btw. I could easily see this sneaking into people's headcanon. I'm not a fan of lesbianism for lesbianism's sake being tossed in there, but in this case, it fit very well. So kudos.

[Leaty]

Admittedly, Karla is officially not a Scottish name, but Yamaku and Iwanako are officially not Japanese names either.

I actually came up with an explanation for Iwanako's name in MTB. I just need to find a place to weasel it in.

[brythain]

Not in this story, pal. (Sorry, weee, but not buying it.)

Admittedly, Karla is officially not a Scottish name, but Yamaku and Iwanako are officially not Japanese names either.

Yamaku is a legitimate construct though; it would mean 'mountain ward'. I think a fictitious Aobayama-ku (Mount Aoba Ward) could be made to be the precinct after which a fictitious Yamaku Academy is named.

There are actually Japanese precincts/wards/districts (sub-units of a city) with names of the form XYZyama-ku. Example: Higashiyama-ku is the Eastern Mountain Ward of Kyoto.

[bhtooefr]

Really, the more I think about the implications of Mayoi being a lesbian, the more the entire dynamic of the Satou and Hakamichi families works with that being in place.

Leaty already brought up both Jigoro and Hideaki. And this line, "[It was bad enough when your father was the obstacle in our path, but even now...]" tells me that Mayoi did leave Jigoro for Julia (and may have even been cheating on him with her).

Hiroyuki and Jigoro's feud? Could be explained by how Jigoro treated Mayoi when she came out, and that line I quoted has room for some downright nasty stuff to have happened.

The whole Shizune/Misha dynamic is put into a new light, too. Hell, Lilly and Shizune's dynamic may have elements of the Hiroyuki/Jigoro dynamic leaking through in more ways than we thought, depending on what happened with Shizune and Misha - remember, Lilly, Shizune, and Misha were close. (I actually have toyed with that one in my head, WITHOUT the whole Mayoi situation being a part of it, that Lilly resented Shizune for how she treated Misha or something.) If that's the case, though, it affects how I perceive Lilly's tolerance of homosexuality... right now, I think she's got a "it's just a phase, and everyone grows out of it" mentality, which is what she expresses in NekoDude's story when Akira and Hanako get together. However, adding Mayoi to the mix, which resolves quite a few other issues, almost requires that Lilly actually be very accepting of homosexuality, and side with Mayoi and Misha over Jigoro and Shizune. (And, I've always seen two possible interpretations to the "adolescence is a funny time" line from Lilly, IMO - either she sees it as a phase that people grow out of, or she's extremely accepting of it (even if she's herself straight).)

As Leaty said, I think what you just did with Mayoi is the puzzle piece that made 2/5 of the entire VN make a hell of a lot more sense. I still have to get used to the formatting (it needs a full re-read), but otherwise... this might be your best chapter yet, and that's in a story full of great ones.

[dewelar]

Okay, coherent response ahoy, I hope -- still more brief than it deserves, though .

Loving. This Chapter. So Much.

Okay, so, where to start: I loved Shizune's POV.

I'm very glad about that, and all the other positive feedback I've gotten. I mentioned to brythain a couple months ago that Shizune was the one among the major characters that I felt I understood the least, so going in I had the most reservations about this one.

Like Rin, I don't really like Shizune all that much in her own route (or in Act One, for that matter, which is something that's having a deleterious effect on my own productivity,)

For me, Rin and Shizune are at opposite ends. I always felt like I understood Rin, while I always struggled to understand Shizune. Now...maybe I do, at least a little.

but I love the more thoughtful, caring side of her that appears in other routes, where she doesn't have the liberty to strangle everybody in the room with the force of her personality.

That side of her does come out quite a bit in her Act 4, though. It's just a bumpy ride to get there.

But where you really blasted off here was with Mayoi, holy shit. I try to consider a lot of character interpretations that nobody's really explored, but to my embarrassment it had never even occurred to me in passing that Mayoi might still be alive. I just took it for granted that she was dead because you're not allowed to be a girl at Yamaku Academy without some kind of tragic backstory unless you're Rin.

*laughs* And, honestly, we know NOTHING of Rin's backstory beyond one line from Nomiya, and I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him (and we all know you can't throw a fictional character).

And you deserve all the credit for making me look at Shizune in a different light; seeing how she is with her mother makes me think of her (and her whole family, really) in a completely new way.

Thanks again. This idea was very much a "Eureka!" moment for me, because, as you say here so eloquently, it explains a lot. I even had a passing thought that Mayoi and Jigoro were beards for each other, but decided against it. I still see it as a distinct possibility, just not in this continuity.

*Moms don't really get a fair shake in KS, honestly. Hanako seems to have been a daddy's girl when her parents were alive (not that she doesn't miss both of them, but...) and Rin's parents barely even matter. Even Lilly seems to think about her dad more often than her mom.

I wonder how much of this is an unintentional side effect of all the path writers being male.

Many thanks for a wonderful chapter with elegant solutions and a lovely Mayoi. Took me a while to get used to |…| <…> […] and italics all in one place, but it was worth it.

Thanks. I wonder what your Shizune would think of it .

This fic continues to put a smile on my face whenever I see that a new chapter is up

And you pay that smile back with this one .

Not in this story, pal. (Sorry, weee, but not buying it.)

Admittedly, Karla is officially not a Scottish name, but Yamaku and Iwanako are officially not Japanese names either.

*nods* Actually, had I known about "Karla" when I needed names in my head for Lilly's parents, I probably would have gone with it. However, when I did a search on this board, there wasn't any name that was used consistently, so I found one for myself. Strangely, the name "Karla" doesn't even appear on this board except for a brief mention in Thanatos' Akira story, and that chapter didn't exist yet. When I did finally learn of it, "Sorcha" was already imprinted on me.

BTW, very nice twist with Mayoi, btw. I could easily see this sneaking into people's headcanon. I'm not a fan of lesbianism for lesbianism's sake being tossed in there, but in this case, it fit very well. So kudos.

Thanks.

Really, the more I think about the implications of Mayoi being a lesbian, the more the entire dynamic of the Satou and Hakamichi families works with that being in place.

I think I've mentioned once or twice that once Developments is complete, I've given serious thought to writing a prequel story involving the two families. I still haven't decided, but this chapter is very much a product of that pondering. I won't say any more right now for that reason, but the rest of your post certainly touches on a few of the things I'd be covering.

As Leaty said, I think what you just did with Mayoi is the puzzle piece that made 2/5 of the entire VN make a hell of a lot more sense. I still have to get used to the formatting (it needs a full re-read), but otherwise... this might be your best chapter yet, and that's in a story full of great ones.

And, again, thanks. This one took some major wrangling, so I'm glad it paid off .

[Mahorfeus]

Count me in the camp that doesn't really like Shizune, but she always seems to star in some of the best fiction on here. (That may or may not be hyperbole.) The formatting took some getting used to (a second read and a cup of coffee), but I like the effort you put into making the narrative fit the POV. I don't know if I quite agree that this was your best chapter yet, but it was most definitely insightful. As I suggested earlier (before I had my coffee), that Shizune's mother is still alive came as a big surprise, mostly because I cannot think of another fic in which she is. I know that some fics have their way of propagating a certain headcanon. Of course, there was the other shocker in this chapter, which as others have already pointed out, raises all sorts of possibilities.

Jigoro's pride must have been rather wounded... Looking back at the VN, the image of an angry, bitter man seems a lot more apparent than a man that is just hiding his grief.

Oh, and Lilly. She really needs to drive this need/want thing into her thick skull.

[forgetmenot]

words

All of this.

Your formatting makes my eyes bleed, but I suppose in a situation like this there's probably not many better ways of doing it. Good chapter.