Yamaku Book Club (20220124 Dish Washing)

[azumeow]

This story, while (I feel it was) well-written, left a really, really bad taste in my mouth. Seeing the tags, I really shouldn't have read it. It's difficult to approach this topic appropriately, I am aware, but I feel that the author failed to do so. I'm going to pass on judgment because I'm a bit too biased to make a decent criticism of it.

[ProfAllister]

Ah, Mendacium. Arguably more controversial than Two Hallways or Misstep (both, incidentally, also focusing on Hanako).

In terms of evoking a reaction from the audience (emotional, intellectual, etc.), it's pretty hard to argue that this was anything but a smashing success. On the subject of whether or not the work had the intended effect, the jury's still out on it (mostly because no one can agree on what was intended). And, of course, there's also the unpleasant subject of "shock literature," where the whole intent is to evoke fainting spells and harrumphing.

The writing style and grammar struck me as serviceable, if unremarkable. As has already been observed ad flagellum equus mortuus, the Narrative leaves something to be desired, especially concerning the strength of motivations in comparison to the established personalities of the characters. And, to bring up a point that hasn't yet come up, I feel that his choice of musical accompaniment was often a little off-base - not that the music was inappropriate for the scene per se, but that the music had a certain context within KS, and his choices seem to have ignored these established contexts.

But, setting this all aside, what does it mean, and why has it caused such a huge controversy and notoriety?

There have been legions of poorly-written stories, inconsistent characters, etc., but most just get a stern talking-to by Mirage, a few people saying "yeah, this wasn't very good," and then it dies.

Brogurt was a well-known member of the community, and there were many public clashes with other prominent figures, which presents the possibility that it only achieved notoriety due to celebrity, and the weight of its notoriety has carried on even beyond those who never knew Brogurt. But everyone likes to claim that they're free of the vicissitudes of such petty personal conflict, so let's give them the benefit of the doubt.

If not the writing quality, nor the personages involved, then what?

There's an old saw that says that sacred cows make the best hamburgers. A more appropriate variation would be that sacred cows are the best materials for making hamburgers - it's still (very) possible to mess them up. The evidence indicates that Hanako is KS's sacred cow (even more so than the cow she regularly hangs out with). As a result, you are FAR more likely to cause controversy by disturbing the cow, or, more appropriately, peoples' perception of the cow. Under that interpretation, the real "crime" that has caused such consternation (and the common factor it shares with the two other major controversial works) is evident in the fact that the most common criticism (justified or not) can be phrased as "Hanako would never..."

This isn't meant to dismiss those criticisms, or claim they lack merit, or anything like that. But I do think it hits on why this work receives such a disproportionate amount of hate and controversy. There's going to be someone who objects to you turning sacred cows into 100% all-beef patties. And it'll be even worse if you do a bad job of it.

In conclusion, we have an ambitious effort which ended up somewhere in the ballpark of "mediocre" and "kinda bad," but, because of who and what it dealt with, has ballooned into a reputation more deserving of a fic where Hanako falls in love with an author self-insert who also happens to be the reincarnation of Hitler in America.

[bhtooefr]

In conclusion, we have an ambitious effort which ended up somewhere in the ballpark of "mediocre" and "kinda bad," but, because of who and what it dealt with, has ballooned into a reputation more deserving of a fic where Hanako falls in love with an author self-insert who also happens to be the reincarnation of Hitler in America.

And now you've given me a trollfic idea.

Except it's usually HANAKO that I write when I want to write self insert... (Or are you referring to that fic that actually named the self insert American OC Adolf, in a total lack of awareness of world history regarding that name?)

[Mirage_GSM]

Is it even possible to both be aware of the existance of that name and not of it's implications?
It's not like there are many people still around today who carry the name. In 2006 only one in 27.700 babys was given the name Adolf - and that as a second name, probably after some grandfather.
I'd be inclined to assume everyone who claims unawareness is just trolling...

[TheGoatman]

Bleh, after finally cracking my gmail accounts password out of my phone I have access to my account again!

Anywho, I'm interested in joining, what time July 6th, or can I just show up at any point tomorrow and attend the meeting?

[brythain]

Is it even possible to both be aware of the existance of that name and not of it's implications?

In the non-English speaking world, they know Hitler, but not necessarily his first name. Also, the Nazis were allies of Japan in the war, so there isn't as much visceral revulsion. Stalin was pretty evil too, in many ways, but nobody has problems calling their kids 'Josif' or 'Joe'—that's because he was a US/UK ally in the war.

[bhtooefr]

Found the story: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/9429267/1/ ... t-Disorder

I recall seeing it before and decided it wasn't worth my time, when I saw the synopsis.

And the poster is an American that writes Call of Duty fanfic. Yeah, he knows what Adolf means.

Edit: Oh god, there's twenty (edit: 36) chapters of this shit? Over 200,000 words? And it says to skip to chapter nine if you've already read Hanako Act 1? Talk about verbal diarrhea.

[Oddball]

Bleh, after finally cracking my gmail accounts password out of my phone I have access to my account again!

Anywho, I'm interested in joining, what time July 6th, or can I just show up at any point tomorrow and attend the meeting?

Jump in anytime you like.

Edit: Oh god, there's twenty chapters of this shit? Over 200,000 words? And it says to skip to chapter nine if you've already read Hanako Act 1? Talk about verbal diarrhea.

Stuff like that is exactly why I tend to avoid fanfiction.net.

[dewelar]

Bleh, after finally cracking my gmail accounts password out of my phone I have access to my account again!

Anywho, I'm interested in joining, what time July 6th, or can I just show up at any point tomorrow and attend the meeting?

Jump in anytime you like.

Yeah, it's not a meeting in the traditional sense. Sea will make a post when discussion of the story is to begin, and then it usually lasts a couple days, or whenever people are done talking about the current story .

Edit: Oh god, there's twenty chapters of this shit? Over 200,000 words? And it says to skip to chapter nine if you've already read Hanako Act 1? Talk about verbal diarrhea.

Stuff like that is exactly why I tend to avoid fanfiction.net.

*nods* The interface is pretty lousy, too. I only visit the site when someone points me to something specific that sounds interesting.

[bhtooefr]

And, on this one, discussion started before the official start of the meeting, so...

[Leaty]

Edit: Oh god, there's twenty chapters of this shit? Over 200,000 words? And it says to skip to chapter nine if you've already read Hanako Act 1? Talk about verbal diarrhea.

And that fic is significantly more popular than Tomorrow's Doom on the website, which should just go to show you how shitty that website's userbase is.

I should really crosspost MTB to Archive of Our Own and compare the reactions. My reviews on FFN are pretty uninspiring.

[forgetmenot]

I should really crosspost MTB to Archive of Our Own and compare the reactions. My reviews on FFN are pretty uninspiring.

Wow. I think I'm now dumber for having read some of those comments. Yikes.

[TheGoatman]

Ahh yes, Mendacium, I remember this one.

While I have to say that the attempt at the music background was really neat, it wasn't enough to override the overuse of the cliche "suicidal-hanako" that the opening brought, while I will say this: The cheating Hanako was fairly original, at least I haven't seen it in any other fanfic, that may be because it's so unrealistic that it's almost laughable, but it's original nonetheless.

But Hanako going with a guy with this line of thinking "“I saw… from the way he was with others… that he was a-aggressive, and he often g-got what he wanted. I guess… that was part of w… what attracted me to him.”", basically one of those "alpha-male"(and I use that term with great sarcasm) guys, pretty much took the unrealistic aspect of the story, brought it over the edge, several yards out, and then fell quite brutally. I could go on for a while about the story, but in the end it struck me as being very unrealistic, and rather cliche. While not terrible by fanfic standards, I was not overly impressed. Might recommend to someone who has read alot of the fanfics here but definitely wouldn't be one of the first I'd point a new guy towards.

[Mahorfeus]

Spoilering this since I don't usually babble on about how I would do things. It seems just a bit rude to do so, but I figured I'd put the idea on paper for anyone who cares to read it.

To be totally honest, I think the entire "alpha male" angle was kind of unnecessary, cheating and rape and all. Tenshi could have just as easily been a platonic friend she made in the process of trying to become more outgoing. He is a bit similar to Hisao (or even herself), but perhaps a bit more self-assured, and Hanako finds herself attracted to him. But she feels guilty about it, thinks that her friendship might count as cheating on Hisao, and ends up confessing her "crime." Hisao is alright with it, but realizes that he is actually a bit jealous, and maybe later decides that he could stand to be a bit more like Tenshi. Hell, maybe he even befriends the guy. It'd be missing out on a lot of the themes Brogurt touched on, but it wouldn't be nearly as angsty. But now I'm just writing a different story.

That aside, I am a tad curious as to whether this discussion would have went as well if we had had it when the reading was assigned the first time around.

[Oddball]

Spoilering this since I don't usually babble on about how I would do things. It seems just a bit rude to do so, but I figured I'd put the idea on paper for anyone who cares to read it.

To be totally honest, I think the entire "alpha male" angle was kind of unnecessary, cheating and rape and all. Tenshi could have just as easily been a platonic friend she made in the process of trying to become more outgoing. He is a bit similar to Hisao (or even herself), but perhaps a bit more self-assured, and Hanako finds herself attracted to him. But she feels guilty about it, thinks that her friendship might count as cheating on Hisao, and ends up confessing her "crime." Hisao is alright with it, but realizes that he is actually a bit jealous, and maybe later decides that he could stand to be a bit more like Tenshi. Hell, maybe he even befriends the guy. It'd be missing out on a lot of the themes Brogurt touched on, but it wouldn't be nearly as angsty. But now I'm just writing a different story.

That aside, I am a tad curious as to whether this discussion would have went as well if we had had it when the reading was assigned the first time around.

That would be more reasonable, but then it would also be an entirely different story too.