Orientation of the girls in 3-3 (or of anyone, really)

[Oddball]

Kinda related topic, are there any Miki/Suzu pieces?

Fanfics? I've seen a few but not many.

[Helbereth]

Kinda related topic, are there any Miki/Suzu pieces?

Fanfics? I've seen a few but not many.

Surely you jest? There are probably more false-start pseudo-routes for Miki than any other character, and Suzu has at least one completed pseudo-arc and another that's around half finished. The two of them also appear in more fan fics as peripheral characters than almost any other pair of characters--almost always as a friend pair.

[Oddball]

I thought he meant Miki and Suzu as a romantic (or at least sexual) coupling.

[bhtooefr]

Banda did it, as Suzu doing a "Comfort Miki". (It was even titled >Comfort.)

Of course, being a Banda fic, Miki needed comforting because Hisao wasn't happy about her extra equipment, and broke up with her.

[Helbereth]

I thought he meant Miki and Suzu as a romantic (or at least sexual) coupling.

That idea sounds so ridiculous that I automatically assumed he meant separately...

[Munchenhausen]

I thought he meant Miki and Suzu as a romantic (or at least sexual) coupling.

Aye, I was meaning that I've never once seen anyone depict Miki and Suzu as anything more than sisterly-friends. I was curious to know if there was anything at all.

Banda did it, as Suzu doing a "Comfort Miki".

Oh?
Ohhhhhhhh~?

Of course, being a Banda fic, Miki needed comforting because Hisao wasn't happy about her extra equipment, and broke up with her.

Oh.
Ohhhhhhhh.

[bhtooefr]

Something interesting, in the classroom CG, that could be massively overanalyzed (and actually puts Hanako's bad end in a much better light, outside of the orientation discussion)...

Look at the direction Naomi's body is turned. It looks like she was talking to Hanako before Hisao came into the classroom.

And given how skittish Hanako was at first... that means that she and Naomi were likely friendly with each other at some level beforehand.

This actually has very little to do with the orientation discussion, but it's a good sign for Hanako's story after the bad end, and actually makes me think that the "throw herself into the newspaper club after the bad end" story isn't just plausible, but likely.

In any case... justification for Hanako being attracted to Akira... it's gonna be script style because that's the best way to quote the VN verbatim:

From Act 1, Quiet (immediately after committing to Hanako's route):

Hisao: “So, what’s Lilly’s sister like?”
Hanako: “She… she’s nice. She’s pretty like Lilly, but she dresses… business-like…”
Hisao: “Business-like?”
Hanako: “She… she’s always wearing a suit…”
Hisao: “Ah, I see. And that makes her less pretty somehow?”
Hanako gives an embarrassed shake of her head.
Hanako: “N-no… just… different.”
I’ll admit it, this has got me intrigued. To hear Hanako talk about someone other than Lilly is a first, and to be complimentary about it too… But as I try to picture this mystery sister, all I can think of is Lilly in a suit. And I can’t imagine that not being attractive. Not at all.
Hisao: “Well, one day you’ll have to introduce me to her.”
Hanako: “O-okay.”
Our brief conversation ends as abruptly as it started, and we both return to our novels.

When she gives the embarrassed shake of her head, she's got (by Hanako standards, anyway) a shit-eating grin.

From Lilly Act 2, Unidentified Drinking Object:

Lilly: “I thought you said you’d have to work, Akira. Did you manage to get off for a while?”
Akira: “Eh, kinda. I feel bad about ditching the guys doing overtime, so I gotta get back soon. But I felt bad about not coming to your cute little Hanako’s birthday too, so for now I’m here.”
She grins widely at Hanako, who flowers into a full blush as she pins her eyes downwards toward her lap. Her mouth seems to widen and retract over and over, as if she was trying to suppress a smile out of embarrassment. It’s a little strange how her raction seems to be more immediate and forceful than when she’s embarrassed by the way she looks. All she manages to give in return is a tiny nod, failing to hide her appreciation to any great extent. Not that many people give her positive attention, I suppose. It makes me respect how well Akira can handle her, making her so happy, compared to what little I could do.

Also known as, the moment that Hisao got on board the SS Hanakira.

The other way around, I explored that by retelling Lilly Act 4, Pajamas and Suits, from Akira's POV: http://ks.renai.us/viewtopic.php?f=52&t ... 90#p184164 - the goal there wasn't to write a particularly good fic, it was simply to see whether Akira was attracted to Hanako.

[Guest Poster]

Not to throw a wrench in your system, Prof, but I knew before the age of 13 that sexually, I was only attracted to women. There was no period where I wasn't sure one way or another, and, if I'm honest, I don't understand why it's difficult for anyone to figure out even without sexual contact. For me, almost at the same moment that I realized I had sexual desires, I was already paying closer attention to girls both at school and in media. The confusion aspect does come into play for some, I know, but just because I know something on a rational level doesn't mean I understand it on a human level.

I think I kind of agree with ProfAllister that it's more like a spectrum than a bunch of clear-cut options. I know several women who were married to a man, only to divorce and marry/get together with a woman at some point afterwards. So obviously it's not that easy for everyone.

Using the Straight-Gay scale, someone who's 100%-0% or 0%-100% is never ever gonna doubt his/her orientation. Someone tilting to 90%-10% on either side isn't gonna have much doubt and when meeting someone of the same gender with whom he/she feels a click, at most there'll be a "Stupid Sexy Flanders"-moment before the notion is dismissed. Then you'd have the 80%-20% people who still identify as completely straight/gay, but when running into the right person these people could have a genuine moment of confusion about their orientation, though still dismissing it eventually. You'd have to go to the 70%-30% crowd or closer to the center to have folks who'd seriously consider switching teams for the right person.

"The right person" in the preceeding paragraph is often someone with whom there's already a strong emotional connection, which makes the thought of intimacy less squicky. It's perfectly possible for people of the 80%-20% or 70%-30% category to go through their whole life without ever meeting a person who could act as a catalyst for feelings of confusion. Those people are indistinguishable from the 100% crowd. A person would probably need at least 60%-40% in order to seriously consider switching teams for a relationship with a person of the less-preferred gender.

I personally think few people are completely in the 100% group. (or memes like "I'd still hit it." wouldn't have spread so far and wide ) For most, that's limited to acknowledging that a person of the same gender as them is attractive, without at the same time feeling actual sexual attraction to those people. An example would be Hanako (who I personally believe is straight) acknowledging that Lilly and Akira are pretty. (which she does for both at different points in the VN) Rather than immediately going "ZOMG Lesbian!" or "ZOMG Bi", it'd probably be more accurate to place her into the 90%-10% or 80%-20% category rather than the 100% spot.

If you still don't understand it on a human level, clarifying the matter is probably beyond my abilities.

EDIT:

Look at the direction Naomi's body is turned. It looks like she was talking to Hanako before Hisao came into the classroom.

And given how skittish Hanako was at first... that means that she and Naomi were likely friendly with each other at some level beforehand.

If you're suggesting here that just before Mutou dragged Hisao into the classroom for his introduction, Naomi and Hanako were being friendly with each other, I think missed out on the fact that Hanako had no social interaction with anyone other than Lilly at the beginning of Act 1. Even in Lilly's route, there's a student Hisao talks to who says something along the lines of "Ikezawa is Ikezawa. She never talks to anyone except Lilly." For all we know, Naomi was simply shouting something at Taro or Ritsu before Hisao entered the class.

Also, about that second scene with Akira...it's probably a whole lot more plausible that Akira's simply being a tease (which fits her character) and Hanako simply blushes because she's embarrassed...which tends to cause people to blush on occasion.

[bhtooefr]

Screw it, let's start guessing Kinsey numbers.

Natsume and Naomi: Both 5-6.
Hanako: 1, I think, maybe a very weak 2. And Akira is why she's at least a Kinsey 1.
Ritsu: Sounds like she's 6.
Shizune: 0 or 1, but if it's 1, it ain't for Misha.
Misha: 5. I say 5 because she did initiate things with Hisao.
Hisao: 0 or 1.
Miki: I think 4-5, honestly.
Suzu: 0.

And outside of 3-3:

Akira: I'm writing her as a weak 2.
Lilly: Either a 0 or a 2, I think.
Emi: How does the Kinsey scale work if you actually try it, and decide that that was a horrible idea and will never try it again? I'm thinking she's a 0, but was open minded enough to give it a shot ONCE (much like anal, really), so that might technically count as a 1.
Rin: 3. Although if she doesn't conform to a gender binary, the Kinsey scale starts to break down anyway. But even then it's still 3.
Kenji: 5 but in denial? Either that or 1.
Nomiya: 4.

And, I won't deny that I'm reading into details that probably don't mean what I'm reading into them. But, I also think that the ideas haven't been disproven, so... (and Hanako would get easily embarrassed, too, hmm...)

Good point on Hanako canonically not talking with anyone other than Lilly.

[Aura]

Whoa is KS fanon really this far developed? This is some Touhou level discourse.

[Helbereth]

*proposed evidence of Hanako's attraction to Akira*

That's just not how I read those scenes at all. Hanako isn't used to compliments from anyone, least of all someone with an air of experience to back her claims like the elder sister of her best friend--a sharp, straight-talking lawyer no less. The embarrassed smile in the case of the second scene, then, is likely the result of Akira's genuinely complimentary remarks--like being complimented by an experienced peer--and not necessarily any kind of attraction from Hanako. The first scene simply shows there's a history of such remarks, which I would put forth as perhaps an indication that Akira might feel an attraction toward Hanako, but not necessarily vice versa.

Whoa is KS fanon really this far developed? This is some Touhou level discourse.

Have you not noticed the extensive number of threads pertaining to such topics spread all over this forum, not to mention the dozens upon dozens of fan fictions that--some quite effectively--develop the peripheral characters to such an extent as to almost overtake the mythos surrounding the original main cast? The "Ask!" thread you monitor regularly ought to have indicated as much...

[Silentcook]

I'm the only one who can stomach keeping up with all of the forums. And I don't know about you, but when I hear someone describe something I do as "Touhou level" I don't think it's meant as a compliment...

Fukken power homolevels.

[bhtooefr]

The first scene simply shows there's a history of such remarks, which I would put forth as perhaps an indication that Akira might feel an attraction toward Hanako, but not necessarily vice versa.

Mind you, for Akira's attraction to Hanako, if I want to ratchet the overanalysis to 11, I could also use the fact that Akira showed up to Hanako's birthday party, yet Lilly mentioned that her own was just Hanako. (I forget which route that was mentioned in.) That could be explained away a few ways, though, for sure.

[Numb]

I'm with Aura and Silentcook here, this thread is a bit... Fuck it, I'll keep it simple and say strange, but there are a lot of other things I could say. In my opinion at least, why bother assigning pseudo-canon details for characters that are essentially a blank canvas? It just puts a larger limit on believable fan fiction; Natsume and Naomi being good examples of this. If they start being accepted as 100% lesbian, then all current and future attempts at their routes are made redundant.

In short, don't add sexuality into the mix where it doesn't need to be added, only when it is officially canon.

[Oddball]

I'm with Aura and Silentcook here, this thread is a bit... Fuck it, I'll keep it simple and say strange, but there are a lot of other things I could say. In my opinion at least, why bother assigning pseudo-canon details for characters that are essentially a blank canvas? It just puts a larger limit on believable fan fiction; Natsume and Naomi being good examples of this. If they start being accepted as 100% lesbian, then all current and future attempts at their routes are made redundant.

In short, don't add sexuality into the mix where it doesn't need to be added, only when it is officially canon.

What fun is that?