Orientation of the girls in 3-3 (or of anyone, really)

[bhtooefr]

The story starts with some events that immediately disprove any of those ideas among their classmates, but I think the mistake could have been made, and might more concisely explain why no other potential suitors pursued them since their first year.

I've played with outsiders (Naomi, in fact) thinking that Hanako and Lilly were a couple, although not as a major plot point. I'd actually be surprised if some of their fellow students DIDN'T think that.

I will say that I struggle to believe that Naomi and Natsume are just interested in avoiding relationships for professional reasons. (I mean, that may be a factor, but they're teenagers. That alone usually isn't that effective at that age.) I'm wondering if they're in a strange sort of denial about their orientations (to themselves, anyway), if your scenario is true. Claiming that they're just claiming to be lesbians to discourage suitors, which is only half the story.

While lots of people seem to go with Miki having been around the block a few times, to me she feels more like a person that hasn't actually gone all the way but just talks a good game and everybody assumes she's experienced. I'm thinking she's straight but is just a tad bi-curious (and would probably feel really weird afterwards if she actually did try it.)

She may not have actually gone all the way, just tried. I'll admit that I'm somewhat influenced by NekoDude's characterization (even though my headcanon is VERY different than his as far as her core personality traits) here, though.

I don't think Hanako would want to have sex with Lilly either. She thinks of Lilly as closer to family than somebody to have a romantic relationship with. However she would go along with it Lilly pushed the issue.

I don't think Lilly would want to have sex with Hanako, either, even if she does swing that way. The relationship dynamic, both ways, is too much like family. That's actually a huge part of why I think Akira is a better match for Hanako - she's more experienced than Lilly (which is a good thing in this regard), but at the same time, treats Hanako as much more of an equal. Interestingly, while it was ostensibly Akira's job to basically be Lilly's surrogate mother, most fan fic goes for it actually being the other way around, Lilly was almost Akira's surrogate mother, despite being 7 years younger and Akira considering it her responsibility to protect Lilly. (Which is why Lilly so easily slipped into the role of being Hanako's surrogate mother, too. And I could easily see Akira and Lilly getting into fights over who's responsible for what for each other, and Lilly winning those fights.)

Haruhiko is gay and describes himself as feeling like a woman trapped in a man's body.

Huh. (Would the correct pronoun not be herself, though, at that point? And she'd be straight, too, in that case.) Can't say I've ever seen that one before in the KS fandom (well... I've seen it with Hideaki, but not that particular one).

And Shizune secretly lusts after her cousin Lilly but thinks it's just weird so she pretends to be into Hisao instead.

What Steinherz said. (Although there was a pretty hot Shizune x Lilly fic... BEFORE the release.)

[Oddball]

Haruhiko is gay and describes himself as feeling like a woman trapped in a man's body.

And Shizune secretly lusts after her cousin Lilly but thinks it's just weird so she pretends to be into Hisao instead.

wat?

It was a joke. Laugh with me.

Natsume and Naomi ... they get a bit more difficult. They aren't just a pair. They're too different people with different outlooks. The rumor mill has it that they're a couple. They're not, they';re just good friends, although they do sometimes tease each other and play around with people's expectations. Natsume is gay, but she's not interested in romance at the moment. Naomi I'd go with being bisexual. It's quite likely that they have had sex, but they still manage to think of themselves as just friends.

...where are you getting this information from? I mean, I'm not disagreeing with you, it's just from the way you worded it, it sounds like that was canon at one point.

Not official at all. Just a mix of various theories and interpretations mixed together into something that felt right to me. Saying that they're both gay or both straight just feels like too easy an answer and one of the things KS does well is in making characters more than they seem at first glance.

Also, where'd you'd get the info for Measuring Shadows?

Can't say I remember the exact source, I've read lots of the old topics and searched various other sites for info.

I don't think Lilly would want to have sex with Hanako, either, even if she does swing that way.

I agree. I just wanted to put that out there that Hanako isn't into Lilly like that.

[Steinherz]

Haruhiko is gay and describes himself as feeling like a woman trapped in a man's body.

And Shizune secretly lusts after her cousin Lilly but thinks it's just weird so she pretends to be into Hisao instead.

wat?
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4wpu ... o1_400.gif

It was a joke. Laugh with me.

Oh believe me, I am laughing. But seriously:
How in the everliving fuck did you come up with those? (I mean the Shizune/Lilly thing did happen as bhtooefr said, but it was before the release and reveal they're cousins)
I need to rake your brain, it seems to come up with some good crack-fic material

Haruhiko is gay and describes himself as feeling like a woman trapped in a man's body.

Huh. (Would the correct pronoun not be herself, though, at that point? And she'd be straight, too, in that case.) Can't say I've ever seen that one before in the KS fandom (well... I've seen it with Hideaki, but not that particular one).

I don't think poor Haruhiko has been given anything so much as even a cameo in any of the fics on the forum either.
I mean iirc even Rikabro's Rika-Route had fucking LELOUCH in it
*pause*
Hmm... why am I now imagining a HaruhikoXHisao fic dealing with Haruhiko's gender viewpoints Oddball came up with and the possibility of Haruhiko ending up a transgender?

[bhtooefr]

Well, that was already done with Hideaki.

Off of Shizune's good end.

Yes, Hisao cheated on Shizune.

I forget who did it or I'd link it.

[Steinherz]

Well, that was already done with Hideaki.

Off of Shizune's good end.

Yes, Hisao cheated on Shizune.

I forget who did it or I'd link it.

What is with people and having Hisao cheat on Shizune?
Seriously.

[bhtooefr]

I think I found it, but I think the chapter where Hideaki came out as trans was deleted. (It was marked as WIP.)

And it wasn't actually cheating on Shizune. More like in the aftermath of them breaking up post good-ending.

And it was Banda. So... yeah...


(not smut)

[Helbereth]

I think I found it, but I think the chapter where Hideaki came out as trans was deleted. (It was marked as WIP.)

And it wasn't actually cheating on Shizune. More like in the aftermath of them breaking up post good-ending.

And it was Banda. So... yeah...


(not smut)

One thing I have learned is:

If we did, then every last person who sets foot on Yamaku school grounds, bar none, would be a hermaphrodite into bondage and rape fantasies, who is prone to disturbingly self-destructive sociopathic behavior.

[bhtooefr]

I don't know why, but I'm binging Banda's pastebin.

This is a horrible idea.

Trollfics, trollfics everywhere.

[ProfAllister]

You know, I'm actually kind of shocked that this sort of thread hasn't come up before. (Also, why just 3-3? No one cares about Lilly, Emi or Rin?)

As a general rule, I'd say that we can't really know at this point in their lives. In your teenage years, you're really just discovering the concept of sexuality, and willing to try anything. Just like everything else in puberty, sexuality is a confusing and intimidating thing. And I would say that the cultural pressure to choose how to identify yourself (as gay, straight, bi, etc.) is incredibly destructive - and something that all parties are guilty of.

Aside from the implication that you must act a certain way to reflect a given sexual preference (an assumption on its way out, but not really dead), it is still problematic that it becomes such a definitive feature. While language is "just words," there is a significant difference in weight between "I am a boy who is sexually attracted to boys and not sexually attracted to girls" and "I am gay."

As with any other experience, a teenager is most likely to be inclined toward identifying his sexuality on the basis of his first sexual experience (in the mental sense, not necessarily in the physical sense). For many, this is a source of angst because of cultural expectations, and can often lead to a vicious cycle of depression (and possibly suicide).

For as problematic as I find much of his work, I think Kinsey was probably the most accurate in describing sexuality as a continuum, from "Completely Straight" through "Kinda Gay," and "Very Gay," to "Totally Gay." Even then, that is most accurately assessed when individuals are adults and truly have a sense of self - something that usually doesn't happen until their mid-20s.

So I'd argue that none of the girls really know their sexuality themselves at this point, making it nearly impossible for us to figure it out from the outside. On the question of who might be actively in a lesbian relationship, there are reasons to be speculative, but real life experience indicates that it's often extremely hard to tell that kind of thing from the outside.

I may return to give an analysis of their current leanings (as can best be told), but would need to think more on that point.

[Helbereth]

Not to throw a wrench in your system, Prof, but I knew before the age of 13 that sexually, I was only attracted to women. There was no period where I wasn't sure one way or another, and, if I'm honest, I don't understand why it's difficult for anyone to figure out even without sexual contact. For me, almost at the same moment that I realized I had sexual desires, I was already paying closer attention to girls both at school and in media. The confusion aspect does come into play for some, I know, but just because I know something on a rational level doesn't mean I understand it on a human level.

Granted there are probably a few confused cases among the students in 3-3 and abroad, but most angst over romantic issues is centered on dealing with the unknown, a fear of rejection, inadequacy, or societal limitations like guilt related to sex before marriage and so forth. In other words, it's more about dealing with trying to put yourself out there, rather than deciding what you want. Admittedly, adding the issue of not being certain about your sexuality would certainly complicate the process of pursuing one's interests, but I doubt the majority of teenagers end up dealing with that question for very long, if at all.

If I look back over my listing, I could see Molly having difficulty coming to terms with her potential lesbianism, perhaps due to familial pressure. If I extrapolate that Miki had a difficult childhood, it's also rather easy to conclude that her potential promiscuity could be some kind of smokescreen so she doesn't have to deal with her true self--whatever that might be. The question of Natsume and Naomi and their deception could indicate repressed feelings, but not all teenagers are driven so completely by hormones, and a desire to seek a career before romance isn't unheard of, even if the method might sound strange.

[BlackWaltzTheThird]

There was no period where I wasn't sure one way or another, and, if I'm honest, I don't understand why it's difficult for anyone to figure out even without sexual contact.

Not to say I'm an expert by any means, but I think the first part of that sentence gives the exact reason why the second part is the case. Of course you don't understand, since you never experienced it. It's like, say, how men (and even some women!) generally have a complete lack of understanding about childbirth compared to a woman who has done so.

As for the topic at hand, I don't think there's enough evidence to make a reasonable assumption for anyone except Shizune, Misha, Hanako and, to a lesser extent, Miki, since they are the only ones to have canon insight into their character. For everyone else, this essentially becomes a clusterfuck of wild mass guessing, since they're not really even referred to in game. So, I guess it really comes down to whose headcanon is the strongest. Gentlemen, ready your weapons and prepare for battle.

Personally, I think:
-Natsume and Naomi are in lesbians with each other, though they might not yet be aware.
-Hanako is much more straight than gay, if at all. In her right mind, she wants the D.
-Akio is straight. Straight as his cane.
-Ritsu, given her source material, is yuri as fuck.
-Taro is straight. Not that being any particular orientation would help his chances much.
-Misaki is straight. I have no reason for this.
-Lelouch is straight. He seems like an alpha kinda guy; the type that has girls hanging off his arm. I dunno, I haven't seen his source material.
-Takashi is a douche. A straight douche, but a douche nonetheless.
-Shizune is straight. She said no to Misha, what more do you want? I can't see her suddenly contracting the gay.
-Misha is lesbian, if not bi. Try as some might, you can't erase her canon lesbianism.
-Haruhiko, if he's anything like his counterpart, comes off as asexual, or at the very least, straight but uninterested.
-Ikuno can be straight, since I know as much about her as I do about Misaki.
-Miki is the tough one. She shows no particular inclination either way in the VN, but the Prof makes some good points. I'll put her down as straight but open minded.
-Suzu... boyish haircut aside, I don't think of her as lesbian. Straight it is.
-Lezard, like Lelouch, is someone whose source material is unknown to me. I'll say straight.
-And Molly; I've seen her Measuring Shadows thing before. Something in my mind says she was les in that and that sorta carries over to headcanon status.

Oh, and Hisao is gay of course. For Kenji.

[bhtooefr]

Really, I only titled the thread about the girls in 3-3 because that's where the discussion started... but I'll edit the title.

Now that it's open to everyone... I did already start speculating on Lilly. She may be bi, she may be a downright homophobe, she may even be both! I'm tempted to play with her being somewhat homophobic, although not where to put it. We don't really know enough to know for sure, though. That said, like I said earlier, I do think she's demisexual.

Emi... straight. Quite open to exploring things... with a male partner only.

Rin... I think she's pansexual. And most likely genderfluid (but still ultimately identifying as female merely by default), although that doesn't affect her orientation. And I could see her having multiple lovers, too, with how she treats friendship vis a vis sex.

[Mirage_GSM]

There was no period where I wasn't sure one way or another, and, if I'm honest, I don't understand why it's difficult for anyone to figure out even without sexual contact.

Same for me.
I certainly won't rule out the possibility that it might be different for some, I don't think being uncertain of one's sexuality would be more common than the opposite.

As for the topic at hand, I don't think there's enough evidence to make a reasonable assumption for anyone except Shizune, Misha, Hanako and, to a lesser extent, Miki, since they are the only ones to have canon insight into their character. For everyone else, this essentially becomes a clusterfuck of wild mass guessing, since they're not really even referred to in game. So, I guess it really comes down to whose headcanon is the strongest.

Agreed. The only one who is canonically known to be either lesbian or bi is Misha. For everyone else there are no sources but Fanfiction or Fanart. So by default I think of all others as straight. However, for all side characters I will accept whatever makes for a good story.

-Ritsu, given her source material, is yuri as fuck.

Haven't seen the second season yet... Didn't see anything of that sort in the first - except for the time when she was having a high fever, which is not usually a good state to judge by...

-Taro is straight. Not that being any particular orientation would help his chances much.

I really have to continue my story soon...

-Lelouch is straight. He seems like an alpha kinda guy; the type that has girls hanging off his arm. I dunno, I haven't seen his source material.

In the source material he is WAY to occupied with other stuff to care about romantic relationships. Definitely straight though.

[Oddball]

-Lezard, like Lelouch, is someone whose source material is unknown to me. I'll say straight.

Lezard's source material has him as straight.

Basically an abusive, obsessive stalker but straight none the less.

[Munchenhausen]

I'm just gonna jump in and agree with the whole "Naomi and Natsume being lesbians but whether or not they know/accept it being undefined" theory.
Once upon a time I tried writing fanfiction and I was aiming for the kinda "I love her, but obviously she's my bff of course i love her, right? right?" confusion/denial thing. Although that may be because if I decide them being openly gay, it kinda takes the fun away, in some weird way..?

I also agree with Suzu being straight.
I just can't imagine her being a lesbanum and Miki seems more of a likely candidate. Maybe not Full-on, maybe not even Bi, but definitely more chance of it that of Snoozu. Kind of an experimental teenage thing.

Kinda related topic, are there any Miki/Suzu pieces?