Two halves make a whole [Iwanako pseudo route] [on hold]

[Blasphemy]

Leaty also doesn't represent this entire forum and other people, myself included, voiced their interest in the premise.

What I do think you're lacking severely is execution and I've gotta be honest that a route project like this is almost always way too difficult to do well for someone who still has to learn a lot of the basics. For that I suggest shorter stories. Even if you keep improving during the route, if your writing ability wasn't on a good enough level early on you'll later on probably feel like rewriting the earlier parts due to the quality gap.

[bhtooefr]

Really, routes are insanely hard to get right. They're not a good beginning project, if you're new to writing. (I'm finding that out the hard way with a project that's quickly growing into a route-like format the more I write for it.)

Also, consider waiting to release, while still writing ahead. It does mean that your feedback isn't as timely (but that's what having someone as an editor is for), but it also allows you to actually write the events you set up in previous chapters, then look back at things and see whether it makes sense, without having to retcon.

And, yes, consider whether your concept can be implemented in an interesting way, that's not beyond your writing ability. I think an Iwanako route from Hisao's POV could be interesting - partially because the universe that Iwanako is in is also the universe that Hisao used to be in, and you can use that to give him more backstory. But, that's tricky as hell to pull off in a way that's respectful. And, I think that right now, it is beyond your writing ability. (Trust me. I've been there, writing something beyond my writing ability. *cough*Like Fire and Powder*cough*)

[Helbereth]

I meant on the character. No offense but if I was looking for advice on writing I would ask someone's like themocat or forgetmenot or semisoftcheese or sargcat (or whatever it is) or a writer I'm a fan of

So, you'd rather paw around in the dark, praying for the right person to come along and hand you a torch, instead of accepting assistance from someone offering it willingly? All other things aside, this is probably the least intelligent response you could possibly have offered. Whether it be out of pride, malice, discontent, jealousy or otherwise, turning down potentially enlightening information, especially from an experienced source, is just plain stupid.

For instance, if I wanted to write an Iwanako route, there isn't fuck-all Leaty can do to stop me, but I'd be performing literary Seppuku by ignoring his(her?) advice.

[forgetmenot]

Leaty also doesn't represent this entire forum and other people, myself included, voiced their interest in the premise.

What I do think you're lacking severely is execution and I've gotta be honest that a route project like this is almost always way too difficult to do well for someone who still has to learn a lot of the basics. For that I suggest shorter stories. Even if you keep improving during the route, if your writing ability wasn't on a good enough level early on you'll later on probably feel like rewriting the earlier parts due to the quality gap.

Blasphemy hit the nail on the head. While writing a pseudo-route out of the gate might not be the best idea (look at my writing for the first few chapters of the Kagami route. They're incredibly ambitious, even foolhardy, especially when I try to include canon characters), I do think that writing a 4 or 5-chapter fic might work out better at first glance. You don't even have to exclude Iwanako, if that's who you're really set on writing. Start slow and manageable. Your fic still has a lot of potential, even if it's misplaced as Leaty says it is (which, for the record, I agree with her).

Pseudo-routes are no business to fuck around with, even if you have excellent ideas as to how to start them. Look at the only two/three that have ever been finished (Suzu and Rika, and to a lesser extent I suppose Saki (even though SemisoftCheese did an excellent job finishing what Themocaw started)); indeed, finishing them is even only second banana to making sure that something within the route resonates with the main themes within KS. Akira and Misha's do stand out in every way except being finished (shout out to Thanatos and ProfAllister) but, in short, it's tougher than it looks. There's an inherent expectation of how much you'll have to write, how intertwined you'll have to make your writing to the main KS story, yada yada and so forth and so on. Standalone fics give you much more freedom.

So, you'd rather paw around in the dark, praying for the right person to come along and hand you a torch, instead of accepting assistance from someone offering it willingly? All other things aside, this is probably the least intelligent response you could possibly have offered. Whether it be out of pride, malice, discontent, jealousy or otherwise, turning down potentially enlightening information, especially from an experienced source, is just plain stupid.

For instance, if I wanted to write an Iwanako route, there isn't fuck-all Leaty can do to stop me, but I'd be performing literary Seppuku by ignoring his(her?) advice.

This, this, all of my writer's expertise, this. There is nothing worse you could do than to completely disregard the advice of a fellow writer. Not to say you shouldn't take his/her advice with any amount of salt (be it a grain or a mine's worth). What I'm saying is that the most toxic thing you can do is ignore another writer's criticism just because it's negative. Always accept criticism, however tough it might be to do so. I know I wouldn't be the writer I am if I hadn't.

[Vindicator N]

I'm speaking my intent not because that I don't have my own reaction to this, seriously though. I halted writing my Hanako epilogue due to health reasons, not because everyone hated it.. seriously, why let people stop you? this is a fan-based community, you are you for writing your own story, surely people was willing to help you, you just don't see it. I bookmarked this back when it was posted, sadly i'm disappointed that you gave up easily

[Mirage_GSM]

Leaty makes a lot of good points, but I don't agree that an Iwanako route would be bad by default. Yes, writing a story about Iwanako getting on with her life at her old school would be stupid. The reasons she gave for that I can get behind 100%.

But not every KS story has to be about "finding second love after your first heartbreak." That is a valid theme for a KS story, and you can find it in the VN, but it is not the only theme there. A story about Iwanako and Hisao getting back together could take any number of themes from KS - or go for a new theme entirely. It's not mandatory to rehash the morals already preached in the VN - ther are a lot of interesting storyhooks not touched in KS at all.

In almost all the stories, Hisao dates someone with a disability. Why? Why couldn't he meet a "normal" girl while shopping in the Aura Mart? Damn, now I want to write that route, but I know I don't have the time^^° A story about overcoming the barriers between disabled and healthy people could be interesting as well. And Iwanako is an obvious choice for a "normal" girl, since Hisao already knows her.

Don't misunderstand me: Making an Iwanako route work would be difficult. For one thing it would be a long-distance relationship for the most part, especially if you wanted to end it (the story, not the relationship) before the summer holidays, Iwanako and Hisao could only meet over weekends or talk over the phone. However, since it is still from Hisao's perspective, there would be enough opportunities to use canon characters. Nurse will still badger Hisao to exercise and Shizune will still want to get him to join the student council, or you could introduce an OC form Yamaku... So there is plenty of opportunity for him to interact with others during the week as well. Though that might be fine as well for a story of about four or five chapters - more on that later.

Regarding the quality of your writing - well, it is obvious that English is not your first language, but that's something that will only improve with training. You won't get better without writing anything. Besides that's where an editor or two come in. They'll fix your grammar, point out when you're writing yourself in a corner and generally give advice on how to proceed.

Also, while monkey wasn't inclined to accept Leaty's adivce to just stop writing at the start, (s)he was more receptive to criticism than many writers here before that.

I have the reputation of being one of the most critical commenters around here, but I don't think I ever outright told someone to stop writing. (I thoughtthat a few times, but this was not one of them.) For most stories it would be possible to make them more palatable with just a few plot chages bit of planning ahead or an editor.

I'm willing to give this story some advance credit, simply because nobody's done an Iwanako route before, and I'd really like to see what one would be like. So maybe the result won't be "Beef Wellington" - sometimes I'm just as (or even more) happy with Pizza.

As to actual advice about how to continue... Basically what bhtooefr* said is certainly correct. Writing a route IS difficult** and for reasons stated above an Iwanako route would be even more so. I also try to write at least two or three chapters in advance before posting something.

However, the definition of "Route" is not set in stone. Not every route has to be a monster of a story with 200K+ words. For the purpose of the archive we classified every story about a relationship that does not follow after one of the canon endings as a route. The shortest I've done a word count for are around 50K, and it's certainly possible to write less.

I don't know what kind of plot you have planned for your story, but if you're interested send me a PM, and we can exchange some ideas on the matter.

One thing you should definitely NOT do is copy the character Leaty's Iwanako. In fact, I'd advise you not to read her story at all! One of the main advantages you get writing an Iwanako route is that the character is more or less a blank slate that you can form as you need it for your story. Also Leaty's Iwanako is a lot more dakr than she would be in a story where she doesn't have Arrythmia.


*is there some memory hook to remember that?
**I just noticed that so far we only have five completed routes in the library - though probably about as many more I didn't enter yet... Still not all that much considering the number of stories here.

[monkeywitha6pack]

I'm speaking my intent not because that I don't have my own reaction to this, seriously though. I halted writing my Hanako epilogue due to health reasons, not because everyone hated it.. seriously, why let people stop you? this is a fan-based community, you are you for writing your own story, surely people was willing to help you, you just don't see it. I bookmarked this back when it was posted, sadly i'm disappointed that you gave up easily

I'm not done trust me, I'm just starting fresh with it,

[monkeywitha6pack]

I meant on the character. No offense but if I was looking for advice on writing I would ask someone's like themocat or forgetmenot or semisoftcheese or sargcat (or whatever it is) or a writer I'm a fan of

So, you'd rather paw around in the dark, praying for the right person to come along and hand you a torch, instead of accepting assistance from someone offering it willingly? All other things aside, this is probably the least intelligent response you could possibly have offered. Whether it be out of pride, malice, discontent, jealousy or otherwise, turning down potentially enlightening information, especially from an experienced source, is just plain stupid.

For instance, if I wanted to write an Iwanako route, there isn't fuck-all Leaty can do to stop me, but I'd be performing literary Seppuku by ignoring his(her?) advice.

That came out incredibly the wrong way what I meant was just to tae a dig at leaty like he did to me, I take all advice, just what he said wasn't advice it was just mean

[Feurox]

FFS not this again. Yes what Leaty said could be interpreted as harsh, but it was really just critism and advice. He isn't saying "don't write" or "give up because you suck" He is giving you a real and honest opinion. Quite frankly, there was a lot of grammatical errors and sentence structures. Listen man, It's hard. It's really really hard to listen to others critise your work, but this wasn't just baseless critism, this was very good critism and infact will have saved you from what could become a very tiresome fic. You have to understand nobody is stopping you from writing, But Leaty was telling you that The whole Hisao x Iwanako thing really can't work, with anything but a negative result. It wouldn't be compelling. Feel free to right something else, maybe an OC. But Iwanako isn't a flawed character and the message would not be there. If you are really confused man and annoyed about this then just take some time away from it, Slowly add to you ideas of what you really want to do. Quite frankly Leaty is giving you some amazing advise, and you interpreting it as "mean" is really upsetting. :/ what I am saying is don't be mad at Leaty, as he makes very accurate points. I personally believe in you As a writer, just everyone needs time and help. Shoot me a PM and we can talk, I don't want to come of as harsh and I would love to help you I personally do not agree that a Hisao x Iwanako route is Implausible. But you should at least understand why Leaty is saying what he is saying and not be offended. <3

[monkeywitha6pack]

I'm not taking the advise as mean, I understood what (s)he said what I'm taking is mean is the last part

[Henry Spencer]

I haven't been here in a while, so I curiously clicked on this. Shame to say, I missed it.

Though my opinion is of little worth, I agree with Leaty. I'm not sure an Iwanako route could work at all, unless it was super contrived or something. Though others maybe bend the rules sometimes, I like to interpret canon as literally as possible these days, and issues immediately arise. You have to deal with the fact that she and Hisao are separated, first off. How could you even fix that? Hisao is basically in Yamaku against his will (parents made the decision for him), and we know it's at least decently far from home, considering it never seems to be an option at any time in any of the routes. So how would you get Iwanako there in the first place? The only things that can come to mind right now are kinda ridiculous; either her family can randomly move into the area, or she can develop a disability of her own. Unless you're really good at pulling plot out of your ass, I don't think it can work on that angle.

So let's put Hisao in the only other feasible, canon-ish scenario; he gets the letter, and instead of tossing it, decides to respond. It still wouldn't be perfectly canon because you'd need to alter the letter's contents to be at least neutral, if not more personal. And beyond that, you'd have to take into account that Hisao is either already involved with another girl, or busy chasing one in any canon route the letter appears in. After how far they drifted apart in Hisao's 4-month hospital stay, what could Iwanako possibly say to make Hisao's loyalty waver? Because up to that point in each route, he doesn't even give Iwanako or his old life a passing thought, past the first few days (as far as I remember).

Beyond that, you need to go completely non-canon. Which is ok, I suppose; lots of people, myself included, have done it before. The problem is, unless you start super-early in the KS timeline, it's not one little branch from continuity you're making; it's more like a tree trunk wrapped with multiple layers of complete fabrication. It can't follow any established routes or timelines because it makes virtually no sense to do so.

To conclude, I don't think this would be feasible without a truly valiant effort, one that you may or may not be ready for. Honestly, probably not. I can't think of anyone here that just jumped into doing an entire route straight from the get-go; most of the route writers started out doing one-shots and other short stories until they eventually built up to a route. If you have an interesting idea for something involving Iwanako, I think a one-shot would be a better idea. Maybe a series of vignettes where Hisao, frustrated with his failed relationship with Lilly/Shizune, decides to write back? Dunno.

[monkeywitha6pack]

The story starts 3 days after Hisao gets to the school and he gets a phone call from a depressed Iwanako. Hisao is also depressed but feels bad that she's so depressed about what she did to him so he accepts the offer of a clean slate with her. The story's not over I'm just remaking the first chapter

[Mirage_GSM]

The whole Hisao x Iwanako thing really can't work, with anything but a negative result. It wouldn't be compelling.

Why not? There are tons of stories here where Hisao hooks up with one of the girls years after a bad end. Granted, most of them aren't great, but there are notable exceptions. Why shouldn't the same be possible for Iwanako?

But Iwanako isn't a flawed character and The Message would not be there.

(capitalization added)
So Hisao is only allowed to start a relationship with a disabled character? Again why? Is The Message that disabled people may only fall in love with each other? And even if The Message of KS were something that could not be applied to a Hisao X Iwanako relationship - I don't believe that KS has only one single message, but even if it did - isn't the author of a story - even if it is only fanfiction - free to decide what kind of message they want to convey with their story. Why should they limit themselves to repeating the same message all over again and again. Writing is about creativity and originality, and the reason I don't really consider myself much of a writer is because these are the areas where I'm seriously lacking.

...issues immediately arise. You have to deal with the fact that she and Hisao are separated, first off. How could you even fix that? Hisao is basically in Yamaku against his will (parents made the decision for him), and we know it's at least decently far from home, considering it never seems to be an option at any time in any of the routes.

Yes, it would be a long-distance relationship for most of the time - so what? That too can be interesting to write or read.

It still wouldn't be perfectly canon because you'd need to alter the letter's contents to be at least neutral, if not more personal. And beyond that, you'd have to take into account that Hisao is either already involved with another girl, or busy chasing one in any canon route the letter appears in. After how far they drifted apart in Hisao's 4-month hospital stay, what could Iwanako possibly say to make Hisao's loyalty waver?

Most stories here have a point where they deviate from canon. In fact all fics that begin before one of the canon endings do. That point of deviation could be something as little as a sightly differently worded letter or as big as Iwanako making an unannounced visit. Heck, Leaty's story deviates in the prologue by having Iwanako have a heart attack instead of Hisao. That's not canon either and it still is a great story. The important thing is letting the reader know where exactly the story deviates from canon, so they know which bits of information they know from the VN still apply to this story and which don't.
And why exactly doe Hisao have to pursue one of the girls before the letter arrives? Writing a fanfiction you are not limited as if you were reading a Visual Novel. You can add choice points wherever you want, and that's what ALL the routes here on the forums did, or they wouldn't be routes, they'd b retellings of the original. (okay, except for "Hanako's story" probably)

[monkeywitha6pack]

Thanks for that, couldn't have said that better myself, I fact I tried and ended up shooting myself in the foot

[Leaty]

That came out incredibly the wrong way what I meant was just to tae a dig at leaty like he did to me, I take all advice, just what he said wasn't advice it was just mean

I know I said I was getting out of this thread, but I'm not going to hang back while you continue to malign me. I'll accept whatever punishment is deemed necessary for going back on my word.

First of all, mind your pronouns, please. I'm not a man.

Second of all, everything I said was advice. No matter how much you now try to deny it, you asked for my advice. I gave you advice you didn't like, so now you're trying to bullshit together a narrative in which you're just a victim of the big bad forums bully, and it's painfully obvious to everybody here. I understand that you're very young, and your reading comprehension still needs a little work, so let's take a moment to unpack the paragraph that you insist was just me wantonly harassing you.

I said your writing wasn't ready for primetime—you know this, because you deleted it yourself. I'd argue your posts aren't, either; people are giving you paragraphs' worth of feedback and you reply with pithy, badly punctuated, one-sentence responses. I'm not being mean in saying this, any more than I'd be mean in taking you aside and telling you your fly was open. That's just the way it is; if you want something done about it, that's well within your ability.

I said your use of language was more amateurish than amateurish—that is true, because we're all amateurs here, and your use of language is clumsier than most of the posters in this thread. Again, this is not me being mean, this is me pointing out where you need work. I also said your utilities were abysmal—by which I mean your use of punctuation, which is extremely lacking. You misspell words constantly and often cannot be bothered to use line breaks, commas or periods. Lastly, I said your pacing was clumsy—something that you agree with, so again you're being hypocritical if you insist I'm mean for saying it. All of these things are problems you can work on. You just need to be motivated to do so, and work hard. But I'm not going to lie to you and tell you you don't have any problems at all.

I think that you only want to write an Iwanako fic for the extra attention it would bring you over writing an OC fic—something you basically admitted to. I also suggested you had not considered the problems inherent in doing so, which I think is something you've made implicit. Feel free to stop me at any time and tell me where I've stopped arguing and begun simply trying to hurt your feelings, because I don't see it yet.

I said I couldn't see anybody with distinguished tastes enjoying your writing in its current state: again, I would be very surprised if this wasn't a statement you agreed with! Undoubtedly you can see the difference in quality and effort between your own writing and Sisterhood. If you want your thread to constantly be pushed to the top of the page by readers gushing about how great it is, the way people do for Guest Poster, you have got to work as hard as Guest Poster did. You also have to think things through before recklessly charging into an ill-conceived undertaking.

Then again, I said, if your only objective is to improve your writing ability, if this whole undertaking is simply an exercise through which you want to flex your creative muscles and hone your craft, you should not expect to have an audience of any appreciable size the way Sisterhood does. This is not me being "mean", this is me telling the truth. If this thread just amounts to you horsing around with a word processor and practicing your writing ability (I used the word "noodling" here: if you'd bothered to look it up rather than immediately taking it as an insult, you'd see that the word means "improvisation," thus "literary noodling" simply means "improvised writing") then you're not going to receive a huge audience. Fics with a lot of readers tend to be written by people who care about presentation, and frankly I am not convinced that you do.

Oh, and I never told you to stop writing. I advised you, at your own request, to write something else. I even gave you suggestions as to what you could write, so stop characterizing me as some mean girl who enjoys tormenting you.

You want to talk mean? I've had my writing compared to Valium in the past, by some old lady who gleefully took pleasure in harassing amateur writers. I assure you, there is no glee here. I'm greatly annoyed.

I think your idea is bad. I have had bad ideas, too—I've mentioned them in my own thread. I almost put an autistic girl with argyria in the fic. Has an Iwanako Pseudo-route been done? No, but using sliced salami as toilet paper hasn't been done either, and neither of those ideas are good. You can do better than this.

Why not? There are tons of stories here where Hisao hooks up with one of the girls years after a bad end. Granted, most of them aren't great, but there are notable exceptions. Why shouldn't the same be possible for Iwanako?

Because it is nothing but a pointless stunt. Iwanako has almost zero characterization, and her relationship with Hisao collapsing is the fulcrum upon which the entire storyline pivots. Why Iwanako, and not just some random OC that happens to not be disabled? Because this author wants more attention for their story and is honing in on the only character who they haven't seen a pseudo-route for, completely overlooking the fact that there are very good reasons this hasn't been done (or I would have done it a year ago.)

So Hisao is only allowed to start a relationship with a disabled character? Again why?

Because the series is literally called Katawa Shoujo? Because finding love with a disabled person is the whole point of the entire game? As forgetmenot and Helbereth have mentioned in other threads, Hisao is practically a cipher in his own right. Why would you write him into a situation so divorced from the context of the original VN that it could be an original story, when you could just write an original story, unless you were trying to deceive an audience into being interested in your work?

Now, a caveat—I'm obviously not inherently opposed to pseudo-routes for non-disabled characters in the setting. If somebody wants to write a pseudo-route for Nurse, Meiko, Akira, Misha, et al—that's okay because those characters are very clearly and cogently characterized, and have distinct personalities and backstories. Iwanako is not. What we know about her is that she's shy, girly, and guilty, and unlike characters like Suzu she doesn't even have a cool gimmick like narcolepsy to float her characterization on. There is no point to using her, other than to get attention—and it would actually be exceedingly difficult to pull off compared to a normal route, something beyond the level of a first-time writer uncomfortable working in the Katawa Shoujo setting.

I don't believe that KS has only one single message, but even if it did - isn't the author of a story - even if it is only fanfiction - free to decide what kind of message they want to convey with their story?

Nope. Seriously, nope. I couldn't disagree with you more about what the point of fanfiction is.

By all means, people are free to explore, distort, contort, deconstruct, reconstruct, and otherwise meddle in the themes, characters, and settings of the work for which they are writing fanfiction. I will absolutely be the first to encourage writers to do exactly that. However, there is a threshold of ideas, beyond which the connection to the original story becomes so flimsy and tenuous that you're essentially writing original fiction of your own. After that point, the only reason to continue to portray your original writing as fanfiction would be so that fans of the work one is claiming their piece derives from will be deceived into giving your writing a look when they otherwise wouldn't.

Let me give you an example. Suppose I want to write a fic where Hisao doesn't have a heart attack, and accepts Iwanako's confession, and the rest of the story is about their happy relationship. If one was to tell me this story concept was "interesting," they would be completely out of their mind. This story idea is not compelling. The author's idea is only one contrivance removed from that idea. Hisao has a heart attack and gets back together with Iwanako despite that. Change the setting and the names and you could pass this off as a Clone High fanfic.

Some ideas are certainly good concepts for stories, but not all ideas are good concepts for fanfic. This idea might be okay as a (particularly dry) story, but it is abysmal as a fanfic. A story about a guy on the run from the FBI could be interesting; a fanfic about Hisao on the run from the FBI is just stupid. That idea crosses the threshold of acceptable fanfic. (It might be okay if it was farcical, but a farce is just intentional, controlled stupidity.)

Yes, it would be a long-distance relationship for most of the time - so what? That too can be interesting to write or read.

The problem is deeper than that; there is no avenue through which Hisao and Iwanako could meet to want to rekindle their relationship. You have to mess with the source material to make it work.

Most stories here have a point where they deviate from canon. In fact all fics that begin before one of the canon endings do.

Not sure I agree.

That point of deviation could be something as little as a sightly differently worded letter or as big as Iwanako making an unannounced visit. Heck, Leaty's story deviates in the prologue by having Iwanako have a heart attack instead of Hisao. That's not canon either and it still is a great story. The important thing is letting the reader know where exactly the story deviates from canon, so they know which bits of information they know from the VN still apply to this story and which don't.

My story isn't a pseudo-route, it's a nail fic. I've been fairly vocal in correcting readers who presume otherwise. The point of deviation solely exists to enable the genre in the first place. If I were to add contrivances at any other point in the fic, it would undermine my whole concept.

Pseudo-routes, as well, have (or should have) a single contrivance; the addition of (or the implication of the addition of) a single new option in the course of the normal narrative that leads to a whole new storyline. That's why they're called pseudo-routes. If you're not writing the story that way, you're simply writing a ship fic. (One of my major qualms with the Rika pseudo-route is that it didn't handle this very well, leading to a shaky start. I would have preferred to see the point of divergence.)

Writing a pseudo-route with multiple contrivances, as this Iwanako pseudo-route is apparently going to do, is like writing a Bildungsroman where the protagonist somehow decides not to come of age at the end. If we're going to add both the "pseudo-route" and "AU" qualifiers to a fic, we're already shutting out the potential audience that hates either one or the other, so why even stop there? Why not make it a Curtain fic and a Death fic and a Hurt/Comfort fic and move Yamaku Academy to Middle Earth?

An Iwanako Pseudo-route is too complicated to exist. It fails Occam's Razor. The amount of ass-pulling required to make it believable would be ridiculous.

And why exactly doe Hisao have to pursue one of the girls before the letter arrives? Writing a fanfiction you are not limited as if you were reading a Visual Novel. You can add choice points wherever you want, and that's what ALL the routes here on the forums did, or they wouldn't be routes, they'd b retellings of the original. (okay, except for "Hanako's story" probably)

That isn't how a pseudo-route works. If you're going to call your story a pseudo-route, the sequence of events leading up to it has to be familiar. Reading the first chapter of a pseudo-route should, ideally, make me think that if I booted up the game, I'd know how to get there. If you're unwilling to do that, you can't call it a pseudo-route, just like if your mother is not a royal virgin, you aren't a Raglanian hero.

Undoubtedly people will disagree with me on this, but that's where I stand.