Best use of Side Characters

[OtakuNinja]

[WALL OF SHIZUNE PROPAGANDA]

I'm glad you said all that. It prooves my theory that Lilly is the best girlfriend and Shizune should just remain Hisao's friend.

[Xanatos]

You can't shake the feeling that Shizune's route is canon

Except you can because it isn't.

And I feel the need to comment on that scene where Hisao draws the bird...The fuck is Misha's problem? That was a pretty good bird. It's like how people say Misha is fat when she's not actually fat.

[Oddball]

You can't shake the feeling that Shizune's route is canon

Well, technically you're right. I'd have to have that feeling before I could shake it.

[Megumeru]

Shizune and Misha-duo, and I'll lay down my arguments...here. If we're talking about the use of 'side characters', then it is best to look not only their involvement in ONE route, but ALL routes.
Also as a dream-crushing attempt, all main characters in a VN are degraded into side characters when you picked a specific route--that, or they're left to rot in the background.

I was trying to avoid counting main girls as side characters, but to an extent, I can agree with you here. In fact, I actually like both of them better as side characters than I do as characters on their own. Although I think Misha tends to show up to help out much more than Shizune does.

And that's where you're wrong. Misha did her part--don't get me wrong--but she more or less is the extension of Shizune's 'voice'. Most of Misha's motivation to 'do' something came from Shizune who noticed it first then ask her translator to lay "down the carpets". In Emi's route, for example, although it was Misha who confronted Hisao, it was Shizune who noticed the change before.

From then on, what impresses me is how they expand more to their own character. Shizune and Misha as main characters are like chicken pies--their role as side characters are the coriander you put as a finish.

You can't shake the feeling that Shizune's route is canon

Except you can because it isn't.

And I feel the need to comment on that scene where Hisao draws the bird...The fuck is Misha's problem? That was a pretty good bird. It's like how people say Misha is fat when she's not actually fat.

well to be fair, there are no 'canon' routes in VN unless stated otherwise by other media such as novels, anime, or sequels. For example, the F/SN 'FATE' route is considered to be the canon (despite me preferring Tohsaka) as its sequel stated as such. Another example is Nagisa's route in CLANNAD (despite me preferring Tomoyo) in which it receives its own 'After Story'--although arguably, Tomoyo can be considered canon as well as it received its own sequel called 'Tomoyo After' but it is more or less a spin-off. Canonicity can be further argued upon realizing that Majikoi and its sequel by Minato soft provides a continuation for ALL routes--and a few new ones.

But following the usual trend in most VN, the canon route is often determined by the first girl the MC meet (or the most conspicuous) in the prologue. Saber in F/SN, Nagisa in CLANNAD, Momoyo in Majikoi...

...and Shizune in KS.


and about the bird, I agree that the bird Hisao drew is way better than my doodle. But even so it can be considered a sketch and for the standards of art students, that is still below average. The point is...well, you get the point.

[WALL OF SHIZUNE PROPAGANDA]

I'm glad you said all that. It prooves my theory that Lilly is the best girlfriend and Shizune should just remain Hisao's friend.

You mean "best girlfriend 'experience'".
True...considering she jumped-the-bone the second after confession, the morning after, and probably an unaccountable number of times behind the scene, it is the best "girlfriend experience".
Such infatuation...in time it will whither away and disappear when the word 'love' bears little meaning and is being said over and over again.

Shizune though...all starts with forging a connection that grew into trust, then into loyalty, and finally love--one that holds meaning and weight. Can't compare, hands down.
...and you're just mad because Lilly's left to rot in the background in some of the routes

[Xanatos]

Such infatuation...in time it will whither away and disappear when the word 'love' bears little meaning and is being said over and over again.

At least Lilly can say it.



And yeah, it holds so much meaning that they end by saying "Maybe it'll work, maybe not, fucked if we know, let's go to a teahouse."

[Oddball]

And that's where you're wrong. Misha did her part--don't get me wrong--but she more or less is the extension of Shizune's 'voice'. Most of Misha's motivation to 'do' something came from Shizune who noticed it first then ask her translator to lay "down the carpets".

Really? So Misha doesn't do anything without Shizune first telling her to do so?

Sorry. I can't buy that at all. There's more to Misha than just being Shizune's voice. Just because Shizune may have noticed something first doesn't mean that she instructed Misha to go talk to Hisao. In fact, it makes more sense that Misha takes the initiative on her own, as she know what it's like to mess up a romantic relationship and doesn't want to see anybody else with a broken heart. Hisao also tends to notice when Misha seems to be "working off a script."

Not to mention that Shizune is rather horrible at handling romantic situations.

But following the usual trend in most VN, the canon route is often determined by the first girl the MC meet (or the most conspicuous) in the prologue. Saber in F/SN, Nagisa in CLANNAD, Momoyo in Majikoi...

Well, he notices Hanako first and Misha is far more conspicuous in the prologue and she doesn't have a route, so there goes that theory.

True...considering she jumped-the-bone the second after confession, the morning after, and probably an unaccountable number of times behind the scene, it is the best "girlfriend experience".

At least you can tell Lilly is his girlfriend in her route.

[yummines]

The first girl he met thing kind of goes out the window when you remember that the first girl he met is what caused his heart attack in the first place.

[Megumeru]

Really? So Misha doesn't do anything without Shizune first telling her to do so?

Sorry. I can't buy that at all. There's more to Misha than just being Shizune's voice. Just because Shizune may have noticed something first doesn't mean that she instructed Misha to go talk to Hisao. In fact, it makes more sense that Misha takes the initiative on her own, as she know what it's like to mess up a romantic relationship and doesn't want to see anybody else with a broken heart. Hisao also tends to notice when Misha seems to be "working off a script."

Not to mention that Shizune is rather horrible at handling romantic situations.

Here we go with the standard generalization.
No, no, no, and I'll say this again NO.

Misha is more than Shizune's voice, true, but you are not capturing the focus of Shizu-Mishi duo and instead judge base your own bias--which gets you nowhere. First we look at Misha as a character; what purpose does she stay with Shizune in the first place? Because Shizune wanted to keep their relationship and since Misha still has feelings for Shizune. What is Misha's purpose outside Shizune's story-line? As the translator/voice of Shizune (since no one can understand her except Misha). What about her purpose in Shizune's story line? The antagonist and the main conflict. Is Misha an individual capable of working solo? Yes, she is. For example, her decision to study sign language and become Shizune's translator, her realization when she's having trouble with her grades and decides to skip council work, as well as throughout ACT II when she sets up Hisao with Shizune on multiple occasion.

Yes, Shizune is horrible in handling romantic situations since she's never been in one--but that's where Misha comes in during ACT II to set them up, and this is done by her own accord.

but in all the other routes, if there is Misha and Shizune-- even if she's mentioned alone, then you need to know how to differentiate what is 'Shizune in Misha's voice' and 'Misha in Misha's voice' as most of the time, it is the former who takes the more dominant stance.

Well, he notices Hanako first and Misha is far more conspicuous in the prologue and she doesn't have a route, so there goes that theory.

nope. Still following the trend, let's look at which heroine the main characters meet first (and is introduced to it extensively).

F/SN - Shirou met Saber after being attacked by Lancer, and is the first heroine he actually met face to face/had a conversation with extensively about the holy grail war etc.
CLANNAD - Tomoya met Nagisa when going up the hill, to which they held a short conversation together.
Majikoi - Yamato introduces Momoyo first before the other heroine, pointing her as the 'big sister' of the group.

As a common trend in VNs every time a main heroine is introduced so is the route, which is then considered to be the first or 'canon' route.

Now who's the first heroine he met? Shizune and Misha. You can deny it all you like, but that's how it is.

At least you can tell Lilly is his girlfriend in her route.

You do know what a "girlfriend experience" is, right? Well, 'blindness' = ignorance = bliss, so oh well

The first girl he met thing kind of goes out the window when you remember that the first girl he met is what caused his heart attack in the first place.

Iwanako is a side-character. She has no routes and we are not given any specific details about her other than she broke Hisao's heart--literally. She is part of the plot, but is not part of the heroine which are the main female casts which has their own route in the VN--meaning Shizune, Rin, Hanako, Emi, Lilly.

In all regards, Iwanako doesn't even make it into the 'side-character' category and is more or less a 'plot device'.

[Oddball]

Misha is more than Shizune's voice, true, but you are not capturing the focus of Shizu-Mishi duo and instead judge base your own bias--which gets you nowhere.

As are you. Misha is her own character and does show up several times to act on her own accord, WITHOUT Shizune. Usually when she shows up without Shizune it's to offer advice or urge Hisao on with his romantic situations, something Misha has far more experience and a personal interest in than Shizune does.

First we look at Misha as a character; what purpose does she stay with Shizune in the first place? Because Shizune wanted to keep their relationship and since Misha still has feelings for Shizune.

Again your bias shows though. Misha is with Shizune because Shizune wants to keep their friendship. This complete downplays the fact that Misha is the one with the stronger emotional attachment. Misha is the one who's changed her appearance and much of her personality to try in some pathetic attempt to be more appealing to Shizune.

Misha isn't there because Shizune wants hr to be. That's only a small fragment of it. Misha is there because MISHA wants to be there with Shizune, and when Hisao is having some romantic issues, Misha shows up to help him because she know how bad those things can feel.

You do know what a "girlfriend experience" is, right? Well, 'blindness' = ignorance = bliss, so oh well

I do, and it's has nothing to do at all with what we're talking about. I tried to apply it somewhat to the actual discussion, but once again, you'd rather just insult other characters.

nope. Still following the trend, let's look at which heroine the main characters meet first (and is introduced to it extensively).

In all regards, Iwanako doesn't even make it into the 'side-character' category and is more or less a 'plot device'.

Again, you keep twisting the meanings to support your own personal bias.
Shizune isn't the first girl Hisao interacts with. She's not even the first girl he notices when he comes to his new school. She's not even the first girl that he talks to (unless you're trying to count Misha and Shizune as a single character, which is another thing you seem to be having a problem with.)

And the whole thing is pointless because there simply isn't a canon route anyway. Even if there was a canon route, I wouldn't trust the word of somebody who's decided their own fanfiction is the canon ending for one of the routes to tell me what that canon is.

[Tomate]

Can you two guys skip ahead to the ad hominem attacks?

[Xanatos]

What about her purpose in Shizune's story line? The antagonist and the main conflict.

As a common trend in VNs every time a main heroine is introduced so is the route, which is then considered to be the first or 'canon' route. Now who's the first heroine he met? Shizune and Misha. You can deny it all you like, but that's how it is.

Iwanako is a side-character. In all regards, Iwanako doesn't even make it into the 'side-character' category and is more or less a 'plot device'.

Misha doesn't antagonize anybody. She poses no obstacle whatsoever, save for a few moments in the very end of the route, and even that is entirely dependent on the player's choices. She is no antagonist.

As a common trend in VNs, there is no official canon so it's irrelevant anyway. Shizune's route is no more canon than Kenji's (or anyone else's) so quit trying to make it so.

If Iwanako is a side character, how is it she doesn't make it into the side character category? If she's a plot device, why begin by saying she's a side character only to immediately contradict yourself?

[Megumeru]

Can you two guys skip ahead to the ad hominem attacks?

I've been putting up on the argument, but of course~!

Well, it's a common scene anyway. I should've known that laying down some facts and analysis to a brick wall is not going to get anywhere<<you mean something like this? Well, maybe I should get started with it too--it itches me greatly.

As are you. Misha is her own character and does show up several times to act on her own accord, WITHOUT Shizune. Usually when she shows up without Shizune it's to offer advice or urge Hisao on with his romantic situations, something Misha has far more experience and a personal interest in than Shizune does.

Alright, let's play a petty game shall we?

It's called quote-the-line. Find a line in the VN where Misha act on her own accord then paste the scene's title, ACT, and arc. And as I have mentioned before, her initiative to give romantic advice for Hisao in Shizune's arc are some of her only moments where she act on her own accord--perhaps you missed reading this part.

Again your bias shows though. Misha is with Shizune because Shizune wants to keep their friendship. This complete downplays the fact that Misha is the one with the stronger emotional attachment. Misha is the one who's changed her appearance and much of her personality to try in some pathetic attempt to be more appealing to Shizune.

Misha isn't there because Shizune wants hr to be. That's only a small fragment of it. Misha is there because MISHA wants to be there with Shizune, and when Hisao is having some romantic issues, Misha shows up to help him because she know how bad those things can feel.

Now that's what I said, ain't it? So maybe dot points will actually make things simpler:
-Misha likes Shizune
-Shizune rejects Misha's confession
-Shizune wants to keep Misha as a friend
-Misha stays with Shizune because she wants to (mainly her lingering attachment).

Although I have to disagree on your point about Misha showing up to help Hisao on romantic issues concerning Shizune. Because in regards to Misha, there is no strong obligation or need for her to actually help Hisao; nor is there any goal she accomplished with it--thinking that any human being you come across would help one another without gaining anything in return is naive at best.
This is what happen in Shizune's route regarding Misha and Hisao:
-Shizune expresses interest of Hisao to Misha--this of course is done before Hisao understands sign language (ACTI, Detour Ahead)
-Hisao joins the Student Council. Misha learns Hisao has interest in Shizune (entirety of ACTII)
-Misha--who still holds feelings for Shizune--wants to see her friend happy. She sets both Hisao and Shizune together on multiple occasion, playing the cupid between the two (Shizune ACTII, Talk to the Hand, Bread, Scissors, Paper, Interface, and finally, When Stars Embreace)
-Upon realizing she has achieved her goal by the end of ACTII, Misha was also faced upon the revelation that she will now be the 'third wheel' in the relationship, which lead to the decline until the end of ACT III.

Compare to your baseless argument, this one made a lot more sense doesn't it?

I do, and it's has nothing to do at all with what we're talking about. I tried to apply it somewhat to the actual discussion, but once again, you'd rather just insult other characters.

Insult? Huh, as humorous as you usually put it out anyway. I just did so a little more often than you.

Again, you keep twisting the meanings to support your own personal bias.
Shizune isn't the first girl Hisao interacts with. She's not even the first girl he notices when he comes to his new school. She's not even the first girl that he talks to (unless you're trying to count Misha and Shizune as a single character, which is another thing you seem to be having a problem with.)

And the whole thing is pointless because there simply isn't a canon route anyway. Even if there was a canon route, I wouldn't trust the word of somebody who's decided their own fanfiction is the canon ending for one of the routes to tell me what that canon is.

And this is where I give you my face palm.
I don't twist words or meanings, I use them because I know what it means and the value it holds. When I read a story be it a VN or a novel, I look, analyze, then deconstruct the entire premise of the story before I give my judgment. If any, the person who keeps twisting my words is you. So here, I'll lay down my arguments on the supposedly 'canon route'; but before we start let's look at Iwanako shall we?

Iwanako is Hisao's supposed-to-be girlfriend who--unfortunately--broke his heart in the literal sense. She visits Hisao a number of times before eventually, bugged off until Hisao is admitted into Yamaku High. She sent one letter to Hisao that can easily be summarized as 'goodbye'. Do we know anything else about her? Nope. Does she contribute to anything, be it a conversation in the main story line? Nope.
So what is Iwanako?

Iwanako is a plot device, which is an object or character whose sole purpose is to advance the plot of the story or--alternatively--resolve a conflict. And before you wonder, no Iwanako's letter is not a character but an object; we are talking about Iwanako as a character which--at this point--is still a mystery.

This concludes that Iwanako is not a heroine nor is she a side character. Iwanako is a plot device. And yes, that was a mistake on my wording.

Which then returns to my point: who is the first heroine Hisao is introduced to? What route is first introduced to Hisao? Shizune and Misha duo. And no, Misha and Shizune are not single-character, but single routes as I've stated before, so get that right before you start twisting my words and point fingers at others for doing so.

and did I mention it's canon? No, I say it feels canon and--following the trend in VN--it can be considered as such. And I actually forgot about that ending, but since you reminded me I might actually use it again--did I say it was canon? I don't think I said it was canon. Although I did say in a joking manner that it is a more 'legit' ending--again, get the facts straight in your head before twisting someone else's word.


you see, you can deny it all you want and I don't give a fuck. I lay down my arguments and start a discussion, you're always the one who end up butt-hurt in the end. Difference between you and me, I have something to back my claims and not just mere shout-outs of baseless emotions and word-twisting. You can continue, I don't care, but I will respond with full-force as what you have in the last post.

Misha doesn't antagonize anybody. She poses no obstacle whatsoever, save for a few moments in the very end of the route, and even that is entirely dependent on the player's choices. She is no antagonist.

An antagonist doesn't have to be evil, violent, or down-right destructive towards the main character. The sole purpose of an antagonist is to oppose the main character--which means providing conflict. The main conflict in Shizune's route--or the start of it--is Misha's lingering emotion towards Shizune and her slow decline from the trio. This is an obstacle the main characters have to pass; this is the conflict which makes Misha as the primary antagonist in Shizune's route.

another note, an antagonist can also be anything like the environment which is as prevalent in generic disaster movies.

As a common trend in VNs, there is no official canon so it's irrelevant anyway. Shizune's route is no more canon than Kenji's (or anyone else's) so quit trying to make it so.

That is actually a possible premise. Though it still bugs me how the common VN market always introduce one particular route first which--when made into different adaptations--are considered to be the 'canon' lore; though your claim of 'questionable canon' is plausible.

[Xanatos]

Though it still bugs me how the common VN market always introduce one particular route first which--when made into different adaptations--are considered to be the 'canon' lore; though your claim of 'questionable canon' is plausible.

VNs, by their very nature, don't have canonical paths. That's not a "plausible claim", just a fact. Adaptations (comics, film, tv series, etc.), by their nature, all but require canonical paths. The issue is less with the VN market and more with whatever market to which it's being adapted. Every adaptation of a visual novel has been a failure for this very reason.


As to whatever the hell you two are carrying on about... Bam. I'll just watch from over here until it devolves to lockable thread status.

[Oddball]

You're spending an awful lot of time arguing who the "canon route" is and trying to analyses and deconstruct things when the people that made the game have outright said that there ISN'T a canon route.

Anyway, I'm done.

Ultimately, Megs, you're just not worth wasting my time with anymore. If it makes you feel better counting this as a victory, feel free to do so.

[Denouement]

Well that's legitimately disappointing.