Played Hanako and Lilly routes. Some questions for you guys.

[Snow_Storm]

Question 4: *sigh* one at night, then in the tub. Then blindfolded. Really now?

What did you expect. Lilly's a somewhat repressed catholic schoolgirl who's spent middle school on an all-girl's school and who easily gets hooked on pleasurable things. (caffeïne, wine...)

Most girls who went to a Catholic based education institution usually are the biggest freak in terms of sexuality and they are also the more wild ones. Thus Lilly blind folding Hisao, fingering herself in front of the lad and fuckin' him in the bathroom. She's also an drunkard.

[Nyzer]

Act 1 is largely the same for both girls, so I'll start there. Hisao's relationship with them at first is that he looks up to Lilly like an older and wiser sister, and is protective and careful around Hanako like a younger and shier sister. This dynamic doesn't really change until he starts to actively pursue either one, and at that point it still remains the same for the other one.

Lilly's deal is that she still looks out for him while not confiding in him enough. Hanako's deal is that Hisao looks out for her (and she resents being protected) and is too nervous about whether she'll take it badly to make a move on her. They're not perfect mirrors: for example, Hisao, unlike Hanako, doesn't really resent that Lilly looks out for him. He resents that goddamn heart issue but he doesn't resent her for acting like she does, not even when he finds out she was hiding something major from him. Similarly, when an issue with Hanako arises, Hisao, unlike Lilly, opens up about being vulnerable and uncertain. And so on...
Though it's more true than not to say that they are mirrors, yeah.

[Guest Poster]

Hisao is actually annoyed by Lilly's pity for him as well...the difference between Hisao and Hanako (in her bad end) is that Hisao doesn't end up in an emotional rut deep enough to lash out at Lilly over it.

Likewise, unlike Hisao, Lilly isn't faced with a situation where opening up is the only way to salvage her friendship with Hanako.

[Kyvos]

The reason Hanako wanted to be friends with Hisao was because he didn't stare at her scars (this was the result of him not knowing how to react to everybody's disabilities) and because he didn't try to push her too far with anything. Lilly wanted to be friends because she could tell that Hisao wasn't sure how to act, and her motherly nature made her want to provide guidance. That, and she realized Hanako was more comfortable around Hisao than around anyone else but Lilly.
I'm not entirely sure why the relationship advanced with Hanako, but I think it might have something to do with the fact that Hisao was the only boy she knew. With Lilly, it was because he was one of her closest friends, and her familial situation made it so that she really didn't want to lose anyone close to her, which made them even closer. It may have also had something to do with Hisao starting to act as a sort of father figure to Hanako, while Lilly was already acting as a mother figure.

In defense of Lilly's "healthy adolescent sex drive"
1: It adds to her character, as it's pretty much the opposite of what you'd expect from her personality. It's one of several things that prevent her from having only polite and motherly characteristics.
2: It's generally agreed (see surveys and such) that Lilly is the most attractive of the girls. In a game with sex scenes in it, it seems rather obvious to give her a decent number of them.
3: Due to her lack of sight, her other senses are amplified; primarily hearing and touch. That means she feels things a lot more than most people do. Try to imagine how great sex would feel given that, and tell me you wouldn't want it that often.

[ProfAllister]

1) The Lilly route didn’t really affect me as much as Hanako’s. Perhaps due to the fact that I went for Hanako first. However, I felt that Lilly’s route had more ‘stuff’ happening as compared to Hanako. What do you guys think?

Different people get different feels. As has been noted several times, the sense of more stuff happening is because of the extended time frame. Also, Lilly has (about) 33 scenes, Hanako has (about) 27 scenes. Post Act II. On top of that, it's very possible that Lilly has a significantly greater wordcount.

2) I didn’t really understand the difference between the Hanako-Hisao relationship and the Lilly-Hisao relationship. Anyone mind clarifying?

I'll be getting to this.

3) In Lilly’s route, Hanako showed more change in herself as compared to her own route. Does that mean Hisao was actually a hindrance to Hanako changing for the better?

Question 3 By the end of the Hanako route, I felt that Hanako didn't really change much, aside from the fact of opening up to Hisao. However, since the game just ended there, I assume that she still has trouble mixing with others. In Lilly's route, by taking Lilly away from Hanako, Hanako was sort of forced to branch out and make new friends. What do you gus think?

As others have stated, time frame. Hanako at the end of Hanako arc is MUCH further progressed than Hanako at Lilly's return. Also, Hanako's end gives the strong sense that it's just the beginning - she needs to start living with a new outlook on people, and begin to let the scars heal. The whole themse is that Hanako's stronger than she looks. OF COURSE her good ending will lead to her being more outgoing.

4) ‘A normal adolescent sex drive’ ಠ_ಠ You’re horny. Admit it.

Question 4: *sigh* one at night, then in the tub. Then blindfolded. Really now?

Good for a chuckle, but, (incoming heresy!) I was never a huge fan of Lilly. It was cute, but I don't freak out over that line like everyone else seems to... As for the specifics, the tub and the blindfold tie into the same idea - Lilly wanted Hisao to take the initiative. She sets up a situation where she imagines any red-blooded man would be inclined to take charge, and Hisao... lets her take the lead.

5) Does someone mind explaining the whole dynamics of the relationship? I'm hopelessly confused.

Question 2/5 I guess I kinda combined those two together. My bad. I felt that in both relationships, Hisao NEEDED the girls as support, in a way, and likewise for the girls, albeit in different ways. I'm rather confused by Hisao's ramblings so I am having trouble interpretting the routes. Could ou guys tell me how did each of the girls see Hisao initially and how did that change? And vice versa for Hisao to the girls.

This actually ties into my overall theory for the amazing resonance of KS we've all seen. (MAJOR SPOILERS FOR ALL ROUTES!!)

Hisao starts out as a nobody, a virtual non-entity. He has a few trivial character details, but nothing of any real commitment. In all honesty, Hisao starts out the story as Bella Swan. Right down to every single person of the opposite sex in the new school falling madly in love with him. Unlike Bella, his character develops.

At the beginning, Hisao does need the girls. That's what the manly picnic's all about. He has no convictions, no aim, nothing. This ties into the sexual politics running throughout the novel. With the possible exception of Hanako, it is always the girls who initiate, be it socialization or sex.

Emi sees that Hisao is depressed because his body refuses to let him do what he wants to do. She can sympathise, so she takes it on herself to be the white knight, rescuing poor depressed princess Hisao, giving his life structure and goals. In the bad end, Hisao becomes exactly like Emi, trying to carry all his troubles by himself. Everything falls apart, so he takes refuge in running as an escape from life. In the good end, Hisao accepts that you can rely on others, and ask for help (it's impossible to get the good end unless you seek or accept help). He realises that Emi gave him help long before he knew he needed help. He understands and accepts that he is able to stand on his own, but that life is better when you allow others to help.

Shizune sees Hisao's depression and decides that she wants to help him see how much there is for him to appreciate. She takes pride in her handiwork, in doing things for others. She is rather simplistic in assuming that everyone thinks much like her, so she enlists Hisao to push him, so he can see what he can do. She is quick to give up on him - if he has no fighting spirit, she sees him as a lost cause. Hisao makes a show of objecting to all the work and bullying, but he finds that his life has more meaning in doing things, along with enjoying Shizune and Misha's company. Becasue of Shizune's take-charge personality, Hisao finds himself coasting, allowing others, usually Shizune, to make all the decisions. In the bad end, Hisao refuses to take a stand, and takes the path of least resistance. He then makes his first actual choice in the relationship, choosing to shut Shizune out rather than admit that he made a mistake. In the good end, HIsao realises that he has to determine his own path. He takes charge of the situation, as he can see this is something that Shizune can't and won't handle. The story ends on an open note because the whole theme is Hisao's ability and desire to choose.

Lilly sees that Hisao is lost and aimless. He has no motivation, no aim, and Lilly can tell. Being of a motherly disposition, she takes Hisao under her wing, but realizes that she's not interested in a child, she's interested in a lover. Hisao, like a lost puppy, follows her wherever she goes. Lilly wants to stay with Hisao, but isn't certain that Hisao wants her to stay. In the bad end, Hisao never learns to stand on his own. He relies on Lilly for everything, but refuses to actually open up to her and trust her. Hisao's problems are Hisao's problems, and, by extension, Lilly's problems are Lilly's problems. Hisao doesn't trust that Lilly will stay with him if he asks, so he never asks. In the good end, Hisao has learned that Lilly wants to share her burdens with him, and is willing to share his burdens with her. He trusts her, and he also understands that she wants to be an equal in the relationship. He realises that Lilly need him to take a stand; he trusts that she will stay if he asks her. And he realizes that his inability to be an adult has led to his girlfriend/love leaving. So he decides to man up, do whatever it takes, and let Lilly know what he feels. His dramatic gesture crashes and burns, but it makes an impact.

Rin sees that Hisao is very much like her - directionless, adrift, with no sense of self. She doesn't trust herself or her words. She can't bring herself to say anything, so she uses gentle nudges. She makes excuses to spend time with him, couches her actions in ambiguous gestures, and tries to make sense of him, in the hopes that making sense of Hisao will help her to make sense of herself. Hisao finds himself coasting, just going with the flow, and they gradually find themselves fascinated with the enigma that is the other. They try to reach out tot he other, but whenever one of them is ready, the other isn't. In the bad end, Hisao gives up, refusing to try to understand Rin, or himself. In the neutral (also bad) end, Hisao sides with Nomiya - no one cares about understanding other people, it's all about the art. Hisao gives up on trying to understand Rin, because he feels it's a lost cause, and convinces Rin that understanding and being understood is a lost cause, so she decides to do all that she knows, because it's all she can know. In the good ending, Hisao realizes that understanding and being understood is a red herring. What both he and Rin are seeking is someone to whom they can connect. In finding that they can form a true connection, they decide that understanding and being understood wasn't all that important to begin with.

Hanako sees that Hisao is being nice to her, though she doesn't understand why. She allows him to get close, because she wants love and affection, but also because she sees that Hisao needs help, so she has something to offer to him. Every time Hisao does something for her, she seeks to return the favor. She relies on Hisao, but she wants to show him that she's strong, and that he can rely on her. In the bad end, Hisao has become dependent on protecting Hanako. He refuses to let her be strong, to see her as strong, because he has made protecting her his sole purpose. In the neutral end, Hisao doesn't stifle Hanako, but he refuses to see her strength, so Hanako remains in Hisao's eyes a delicate porcelain doll, appreciated and admired, but too fragile to be loved. In the good end, Hisao gives Hanako the space and opportunity to be strong, to let her use her own judgement, so much so that he stops even thinking about her fragility. He then learns that Hanako is actually very strong, so much so that she has become hard. They learn that they each unfairly misinterpreted the other's actions, but have accepted that they're both strong enough to repair the faults and rebuild their relationship on mutual trust and understanding.

In all the endings, good and bad, Hisao learns something important, which he will take with him later in life. The key difference is what it costs, of himself and of others.

3. Well, when your crush decides he'll gonna fuck and date your best friend and they spend more time with each other than you (to avoid yourself being the third wheel), you tend to go solo and try to turn your focus on other things and growing up, not trying to rely on your old friends.

Hanako took it much better than Misha. Yeah, I went there.

[Brogurt]

1 Hanako's is very short indeed
2 lol idk
3 is definitely a yes because Hisao is retarded
4 she's a mary sue that needed justification
5 your question is confusing too

[Enemy |]

1) The Lilly route didn’t really affect me as much as Hanako’s. Perhaps due to the fact that I went for Hanako first. However, I felt that Lilly’s route had more ‘stuff’ happening as compared to Hanako. What do you guys think?
2) I didn’t really understand the difference between the Hanako-Hisao relationship and the Lilly-Hisao relationship. Anyone mind clarifying?
3) In Lilly’s route, Hanako showed more change in herself as compared to her own route. Does that mean Hisao was actually a hindrance to Hanako changing for the better?
4) ‘A normal adolescent sex drive’ ಠ_ಠ You’re horny. Admit it.
5) Does someone mind explaining the whole dynamics of the relationship? I'm hopelessly confused.

1 - Hanako's route is the shortest one, I believe. Plus it ends just as the relationship is starting.
2 - Well they're very different. Hisao feels he needs to protect Hanako (at least at first and in the bad ending), while in Lilly's route it's more of the opposite.
3 - I think this is mainly because Lilly's route goes on for longer.
4 - Well, why can't she be? Are you complaining?
5 - Which? Hanako and Lilly, Lilly and Hisao, Hisao and Hanako, Kenji and Yuuko, Shopkeeper and Hideaki...? Be more specific

[Keneshiro]

1 - Hanako's route is the shortest one, I believe. Plus it ends just as the relationship is starting.
2 - Well they're very different. Hisao feels he needs to protect Hanako (at least at first and in the bad ending), while in Lilly's route it's more of the opposite.
3 - I think this is mainly because Lilly's route goes on for longer.
4 - Well, why can't she be? Are you complaining?
5 - Which? Hanako and Lilly, Lilly and Hisao, Hisao and Hanako, Kenji and Yuuko, Shopkeeper and Hideaki...? Be more specific

Hmmm. I really should move my later comments up to clarify eh? Gimme sec.

[Megumeru]

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks it's over-the-top.

Your favorite girl likes tying people up and surprising them with sex. You don't get to judge what's over the top.

Oh, SNAP!

Well, if Shizune's a spur-of-the-moment 'HASD'...

...then Lilly's is a motorized 'HASD' that triggers at an instance when they are alone.
and it goes on aaaaall niiiiiight loooooooong.

So Kenji isn't far off when he mentions how feminists were able to conveniently drain your life force. We now know who's the leader of the feminists.

[Xanatos]

I gotta find me a Catholic girl...Or, ideally, a girl who was brought up in a Catholic school but isn't Catholic anymore, because their religion irritates me,

[Guest Poster]

Lilly's still Catholic or she wouldn't be wearing that cross around her neck all the time. It's just that the preachiness often associated with Catholics in the US isn't shown with Lilly because a) it's not in Lilly's character to try and force her beliefs on others and b) in Japan a person's religion is considered to be a private affair and preaching it to others is frowned upon. Lilly's most likely more attracted to the spiritual side of religion than the dogmatic side.

I'm not entirely sure why the relationship advanced with Hanako, but I think it might have something to do with the fact that Hisao was the only boy she knew.

If you take a careful look at Hanako's and Hisao's actions over the course of the entire game, you'll find that there's a great number of paralels between them. Hanako is, in many ways, a slightly more exaggerated version of Hisao. It's very much possible she sensed a kindred spirit in Hisao even before she was capable of fully explaining her attraction to him.

Well, if Shizune's a spur-of-the-moment 'HASD'...

...then Lilly's is a motorized 'HASD' that triggers at an instance when they are alone.

Lilly's route goes on for several weeks after the Hokkaido trip and we see the HASD kick in exactly once after they get back. While Emi's route suggests Emi and Hisao have been going at it like bunnies even when the player isn't watching, I couldn't see a similar suggestion in Lilly's route. Lilly obviously enjoys the act very much, but her flanderisation as a nympho is a bit simple-minded.

[Megumeru]

Well, if Shizune's a spur-of-the-moment 'HASD'...

...then Lilly's is a motorized 'HASD' that triggers at an instance when they are alone.

Lilly's route goes on for several weeks after the Hokkaido trip and we see the HASD kick in exactly once after they get back. While Emi's route suggests Emi and Hisao have been going at it like bunnies even when the player isn't watching, I couldn't see a similar suggestion in Lilly's route. Lilly obviously enjoys the act very much, but her flanderisation as a nympho is a bit simple-minded.

Nympho? Nawh...

...more like MILF!

nawh, just kidding. Anyway, during the Hokkaido trip it goes on twice in a row--one at night, the other the next morning in the tub. That's running on motor--probably diesel engine.

Emi? That's auto-pilot, so don't bother.

[Keneshiro]

This actually ties into my overall theory for the amazing resonance of KS we've all seen. (MAJOR SPOILERS FOR ALL ROUTES!!)

Hisao starts out as a nobody, a virtual non-entity. He has a few trivial character details, but nothing of any real commitment. In all honesty, Hisao starts out the story as Bella Swan. Right down to every single person of the opposite sex in the new school falling madly in love with him. Unlike Bella, his character develops.

At the beginning, Hisao does need the girls. That's what the manly picnic's all about. He has no convictions, no aim, nothing. This ties into the sexual politics running throughout the novel. With the possible exception of Hanako, it is always the girls who initiate, be it socialization or sex.

Emi sees that Hisao is depressed because his body refuses to let him do what he wants to do. She can sympathise, so she takes it on herself to be the white knight, rescuing poor depressed princess Hisao, giving his life structure and goals. In the bad end, Hisao becomes exactly like Emi, trying to carry all his troubles by himself. Everything falls apart, so he takes refuge in running as an escape from life. In the good end, Hisao accepts that you can rely on others, and ask for help (it's impossible to get the good end unless you seek or accept help). He realises that Emi gave him help long before he knew he needed help. He understands and accepts that he is able to stand on his own, but that life is better when you allow others to help.

Shizune sees Hisao's depression and decides that she wants to help him see how much there is for him to appreciate. She takes pride in her handiwork, in doing things for others. She is rather simplistic in assuming that everyone thinks much like her, so she enlists Hisao to push him, so he can see what he can do. She is quick to give up on him - if he has no fighting spirit, she sees him as a lost cause. Hisao makes a show of objecting to all the work and bullying, but he finds that his life has more meaning in doing things, along with enjoying Shizune and Misha's company. Becasue of Shizune's take-charge personality, Hisao finds himself coasting, allowing others, usually Shizune, to make all the decisions. In the bad end, Hisao refuses to take a stand, and takes the path of least resistance. He then makes his first actual choice in the relationship, choosing to shut Shizune out rather than admit that he made a mistake. In the good end, HIsao realises that he has to determine his own path. He takes charge of the situation, as he can see this is something that Shizune can't and won't handle. The story ends on an open note because the whole theme is Hisao's ability and desire to choose.

Lilly sees that Hisao is lost and aimless. He has no motivation, no aim, and Lilly can tell. Being of a motherly disposition, she takes Hisao under her wing, but realizes that she's not interested in a child, she's interested in a lover. Hisao, like a lost puppy, follows her wherever she goes. Lilly wants to stay with Hisao, but isn't certain that Hisao wants her to stay. In the bad end, Hisao never learns to stand on his own. He relies on Lilly for everything, but refuses to actually open up to her and trust her. Hisao's problems are Hisao's problems, and, by extension, Lilly's problems are Lilly's problems. Hisao doesn't trust that Lilly will stay with him if he asks, so he never asks. In the good end, Hisao has learned that Lilly wants to share her burdens with him, and is willing to share his burdens with her. He trusts her, and he also understands that she wants to be an equal in the relationship. He realises that Lilly need him to take a stand; he trusts that she will stay if he asks her. And he realizes that his inability to be an adult has led to his girlfriend/love leaving. So he decides to man up, do whatever it takes, and let Lilly know what he feels. His dramatic gesture crashes and burns, but it makes an impact.

Rin sees that Hisao is very much like her - directionless, adrift, with no sense of self. She doesn't trust herself or her words. She can't bring herself to say anything, so she uses gentle nudges. She makes excuses to spend time with him, couches her actions in ambiguous gestures, and tries to make sense of him, in the hopes that making sense of Hisao will help her to make sense of herself. Hisao finds himself coasting, just going with the flow, and they gradually find themselves fascinated with the enigma that is the other. They try to reach out tot he other, but whenever one of them is ready, the other isn't. In the bad end, Hisao gives up, refusing to try to understand Rin, or himself. In the neutral (also bad) end, Hisao sides with Nomiya - no one cares about understanding other people, it's all about the art. Hisao gives up on trying to understand Rin, because he feels it's a lost cause, and convinces Rin that understanding and being understood is a lost cause, so she decides to do all that she knows, because it's all she can know. In the good ending, Hisao realizes that understanding and being understood is a red herring. What both he and Rin are seeking is someone to whom they can connect. In finding that they can form a true connection, they decide that understanding and being understood wasn't all that important to begin with.

Hanako sees that Hisao is being nice to her, though she doesn't understand why. She allows him to get close, because she wants love and affection, but also because she sees that Hisao needs help, so she has something to offer to him. Every time Hisao does something for her, she seeks to return the favor. She relies on Hisao, but she wants to show him that she's strong, and that he can rely on her. In the bad end, Hisao has become dependent on protecting Hanako. He refuses to let her be strong, to see her as strong, because he has made protecting her his sole purpose. In the neutral end, Hisao doesn't stifle Hanako, but he refuses to see her strength, so Hanako remains in Hisao's eyes a delicate porcelain doll, appreciated and admired, but too fragile to be loved. In the good end, Hisao gives Hanako the space and opportunity to be strong, to let her use her own judgement, so much so that he stops even thinking about her fragility. He then learns that Hanako is actually very strong, so much so that she has become hard. They learn that they each unfairly misinterpreted the other's actions, but have accepted that they're both strong enough to repair the faults and rebuild their relationship on mutual trust and understanding.

In all the endings, good and bad, Hisao learns something important, which he will take with him later in life. The key difference is what it costs, of himself and of others.

So the end of Hanako's route is that Hisao learns to treat her as an equal, not to protect her, while for Lilly, it's the opposite? Or am I being an idiot again?

[Xanatos]

So the end of Hanako's route is that Hisao learns to treat her as an equal, not to protect her, while for Lilly, it's the opposite? Or am I being an idiot again?

The ending is the same for both in that he learns to treat them as equals. The difference is before, he treats Hanako only as something to protect and Lilly only as someone to follow and lean on like a lost dog. She wants an equal and all Hisao tries to be is Hanako-with-a-dick.

Perhaps you should replay the routes. It'd be a funner way of clarifying than asking a bunch of wackos from the 'net. XD

[Keneshiro]

So the end of Hanako's route is that Hisao learns to treat her as an equal, not to protect her, while for Lilly, it's the opposite? Or am I being an idiot again?

The ending is the same for both in that he learns to treat them as equals. The difference is before, he treats Hanako only as something to protect and Lilly only as someone to follow and lean on like a lost dog. She wants an equal and all Hisao tries to be is Hanako-with-a-dick.

Perhaps you should replay the routes. It'd be a funner way of clarifying than asking a bunch of wackos from the 'net. XD

Hamako-with-a-dick OH THE FANFICS THAT SHALL BE MADE
Heh, maybe I'll give it another go. I honestly had some trouble telling the significance of each event. Clueless as hell.