In Ruin [Hisao, Miki, Lilly neutral end] [now with epilogue]

[Bagheera]

Oddball: Motivation is everything. But that asede this is less a matter of betrayal than it is her forcing the issue - Hisao was theoretically going to tell Lilly anyway, and was just using Miki in the meantime. I find it awfully hard to blame her for being tired of his invertebrate impression and wanting him to just get on with it already.

NemZ: I don't think she did it with the intent to do harm. In fact, she seemed genuinely shocked and remorseful that things turned out the way they did, and that more out of concern for Hisao than for herself.

[Oddball]

NemZ: I don't think she did it with the intent to do harm.

So this ...

"Hold on, I'm not done." Miki takes another deep breath. "Okay, so we're going out, and he still doesn't look happy. So- and this is the part you're gonna love -I fuck him. I fuck him hard. Bareback, too. Worry not, it was my decision to make and he cried afterward."

Lilly's breathing is audible on the other end now. I can almost feel her seeping hatred through the phone line, as if the conversation was still live and in progress.

But Miki isn't done yet. Her voice takes on an almost dark, evil tone. "And y'know what? After a couple more times, I convinced him to love me. We hung out a little more and things just exploded from there." She chuckles, and it's downright bastardly in nature.

... Is without the intent to do harm?

Considering what she said, that means either she has worse people skills than Hanako and Shizune combined or she's mentally ill.

[Bagheera]

Harm to Hisao. I don't think she cared about Lilly, and given that she was cheating on him with half of Scotland I can't really get too worked up about her feelings on the matter.

[Oddball]

Harm to Hisao. I don't think she cared about Lilly, and given that she was cheating on him with half of Scotland I can't really get too worked up about her feelings on the matter.

Hisao cared about Lilly. That was the whole problem. If Hisao still hasn't gotten over Lilly, hurting Lilly is NOT going to make Hisao feel better.

[nemz]

Exactly, oddball

[Bagheera]

Hisao cared about Lilly. That was the whole problem. If Hisao still hasn't gotten over Lilly, hurting Lilly is NOT going to make Hisao feel better.

I really doubt Miki thought things through to that extent. And, given Lilly's response, I really doubt Miki's the one who'd be the target of Hisao's anger (though Doomish would know better than any of us, I presume; he hasn't said much of anything about the other girl IRL and I'm still not sure which one Miki represented, so it's not clear to me how he reacted in the actual situation).

It's the same situation as in Mendacium, really; Lilly was sitting there carrying on a relationship with Hisao, lying to his face while she worked her way through every guy who came her way, while Miki did something stupid for more-or-less legitimate reasons. There was plenty of spite involved too, of course, but even still she wanted him to cut the cord so they could actually build something together. It's hard for me to argue with that, particularly since that seems to be exactly what Hisao wanted as well.

[Mirage_GSM]

Agree with Bagheera.
Sure I would be angry at Miki, but I'd be angry at Lilly A LOT more.
And, let's be honest, sleeping with Miki while still keeping his options open with Lilly was not really nice towards Miki either.
Considering her honest display of affection later I think I'd be willing to forgive her.

[nemz]

Hisao has no right to be angry at Lilly, afterall he's cheating on her too. 7, 32, 3568... what does the number of other people she's been with matter when 1 is already too many? From some perspectives sticking to just one and having any sort of emotional investment rather than just shopping around is actually the larger betrayal.

Miki knew exactly what she was getting into, and if there's more truth than fiction in her cruel story it was her idea in the first place. Since she's the other woman in the situation it's not her place to try and speed things along, and in any case there's no reason to do so in such a deliberately vindictive fashion.

[Helbereth]

I did just have a thought about part of this, though.

Even if Miki was calling from Hisao's phone, how does Lilly know she's even being truthful? I may not know Miki's character entirely - most of what's out there is non-canonical - but isn't it possible Lilly could have just seen it (ha, I can't stop myself sometimes) as a practical joke?

Miki could have easily figured out a way to steal Hisao's phone during the day, and used it for the prank sometime later.

Then again, maybe Lilly saw it (again, again! so wrong) as an opportunity to confess her own infidelity - even if Miki were just messing with her. That seems flimsy, though. That's the one glitch in the story that could unravel it, I think.

Sorry if I broke your story...

[Bagheera]

Hisao has no right to be angry at Lilly, afterall he's cheating on her too.

How about because of the utter contempt she displayed while talking about him with Miki?

Miki knew exactly what she was getting into, and if there's more truth than fiction in her cruel story it was her idea in the first place. Since she's the other woman in the situation it's not her place to try and speed things along, and in any case there's no reason to do so in such a deliberately vindictive fashion.

There's no reason not to. Hisao has no reason to be angry at her because she did nothing wrong. She probably should have been nicer about it, but Hisao has no grounds for being angry with her on that front (particularly given Lilly's reaction). Her betrayal was the least of all of them, so I really fail to see why you're keen on making her out to be the bad guy here.

[nemz]

How about because of the utter contempt she displayed while talking about him with Miki?

I'm willing to let the tone slide as she's just responding with a similar degree of nastiness. If you want to blame her for letting her secretive bullshit create the situation that led to all this then I'm all for it, but if we're talking about just this latest batch of problems I see them as equally guilty.

There's no reason not to. Hisao has no reason to be angry at her because she did nothing wrong. She probably should have been nicer about it, but Hisao has no grounds for being angry with her on that front (particularly given Lilly's reaction). Her betrayal was the least of all of them, so I really fail to see why you're keen on making her out to be the bad guy here.

Yes, she did. He asked for more time to deal with his relationship on his own terms, and rather than respect that she did the exact opposite, calling her up with the intention of kicking off a completely unnecessary shitstorm. On his own he probably would have eventually cut things off amicably without mentioning Miki at all, leaving all parties involved relatively unscathed because Lilly would have no reason to divulge her betrayals either. Sometimes sharing the truth is not actually the best answer, especially when it's not your place to share it.

That's not to say that Miki is "the bad guy" though, since they're all guilty of part of this mess. A case could be made that Hisao is actually most at fault.

[Bagheera]

That's not to say that Miki is "the bad guy" though, since they're all guilty of part of this mess. A case could be made that Hisao is actually most at fault.

Given that Hisao and Lilly were both betraying their agreements with one another I'd say they share the bulk of the blame. Miki's just guilty of one dick move. And honestly, she'd probably be better off without Hisao; anyone who can carry on an affair and lie to their SO for an extended period of time is someone you don't want to be around, male or female. I'd rather someone make one colossal fuckup and learn from it since she's not likely to pull a stunt like that in the future. But Hisao? Lilly? They'll totally cheat again, because they know how to do it and have shown they're perfectly okay with it.

[Mirage_GSM]

Before this becomes a second Mendacium, can we please agree to disagree. I think we all made our opinions sufficiently clear and repeating them slightly reworded won't change that.
Also Doomish's story doesn't deserve this kind of bickering. I think we all agree on that.

[Bagheera]

Before this becomes a second Mendacium, can we please agree to disagree. I think we all made our opinions sufficiently clear and repeating them slightly reworded won't change that.
Also Doomish's story doesn't deserve this kind of bickering. I think we all agree on that.

Fair enough.

[Doomish]

Before this becomes a second Mendacium, can we please agree to disagree. I think we all made our opinions sufficiently clear and repeating them slightly reworded won't change that.
Also Doomish's story doesn't deserve this kind of bickering. I think we all agree on that.

I dunno. I'm having fun. I was getting a kind of Mendacium vibe from all this sudden discussion- not to say it's a bad thing -but to sum it all up, I figure everyone is involved in some flavor:

Hisao because of the initial cheating as well as delaying the call to Lilly that could potentially fix everything. It could also potentially ruin everything, and that was why he was putting it off, which he made clear. He also told Miki he wanted to do it himself, but he shows later that he had no plans of doing it himself in the first place and that he was just putting off the inevitable.

Miki because she used mostly improper language when talking to Lilly, going in detail where she probably shouldn't have. As well, she's at fault for even making the call behind Hisao's back in the first place. If Miki had kept Lilly calm instead of intentionally provoking her, things may have turned out on even ground. We find out during the epilogue (and at the tail end of the first part) that Miki only acted like she did to get Lilly off of Hisao's case, because Miki herself fell in love with Hisao during their exploits together.

Lilly isn't safe from the blame either, because she was doing the exact same thing as Hisao. She was cheating on him just as he was on her, with that difference that she never made plans to tell him about it. As a matter of fact, Lilly is arguably more the antagonist than Miki because she was willing to keep cheating on Hisao forever, pretending they were still in a relationship. Even further, she barely seems affected by the news that Hisao is getting his kicks from Miki at all because she values what she has on her chest as more important. This doesn't mean Lilly is the bad guy, merely that out of the three characters, she has the most baggage.

At the end of the day, there is no arguing who is more at fault because it doesn't matter. The point of the story is that everyone involved has committed some act of misgiving: Lilly for cheating on Hisao (and having no regrets), Miki for placing the call herself and serving as Hisao's booty call to support his cheating, and Hisao himself for even cheating on Lilly and keeping the relationship going in the first place. By the end of the story there's no relationship left to salvage because Miki made things worse and then Lilly vicariously blew up on both of them, leaving Hisao no choice but to start over; and start over he does, or so is implied.