Yamaku Book Club (20220124 Dish Washing)

[Guest Poster]

The idea that Hanako would decide that Hisao's not good enough in bed (well, OK, that part I can see, but I think she'd bottle it up, rather than find an outlet for her sexual urges with someone else), and as soon as she got a little confidence, she'd go pick up a "bad boy", is extremely problematic, and hints towards the author having some rather misogynist viewpoints. It's a common sentiment among the self-proclaimed Nice Guys (uppercase intentional, read the linked article) that feel that they're entitled to sex for being nice, that women automatically go for "bad boys" and hate nice guys (lowercase intentional).

I dunno. In this thread, which contains a prologue to Mendacium, the author kinda elaborates on his reasoning. (emphasis mine)

The thing about Mendacium isn't about how Hanako became more confident, but rather about how she became more social while still retaining her insecurities.

Mendacium itself also was based on Hisao's similar kneejerk reaction, which included assuming that she did those things just because she wanted the dick, as well as the slightly more relevant kneejerk reaction in assuming that she is destined for trouble if she should ever become more outgoing again. A.K.A. white knighting.

I tried to make the same thing evident in this fic as a potential setup to the apex where she decides to do something drastic to wipe away those insecurities, by showing that if Hisao finds the resolve to stop being a useless piece of shit, Hanako will notice enough redeeming qualities in him to not consider seeing someone else for the "support" she desires.

So she is, at this point, not particularly introverted, but still insecure. If my dialogue failed that criteria as well, then I guess I've got work to do.

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but did Hanako ever say ingame that she had some good reason for liking Hisao? The itty bitty neurons in my head are saying no, so I have little reason to believe that she wouldn't attempt to "upgrade" unless given a good reason not to.

Long story short: the author simply doesn't like Hisao as a character.


About the story itself...the writing itself was pretty well-done and the sound system was a creative idea, if a bit cumbersome. As far as the story itself goes, my thoughts echo Nemz', Oddball's and Bagheera's.

- Hanako cheating on Hisao in itself wasn't a premise that was completely unbelievable, but the circumstances as mentioned in the story were. The "raging libido + upgrade"-excuse just seemed extremely shallow. If she cheated for emotional, rather than physical reasons, that would have been a lot more interesting. (though it's unlikely a high school relationship in its early stages would run into that problem)

- Of course, Hanako's capable of sinning; she's human after all and the flaws and insecurities she shows in the game give writers plenty of material to let her make some spectacularly bad decisions without it coming across as OOC. Unfortunately, the motivations for the affair were so nasty, it basically made Brogurt's Hanako irredeemable. This wasn't just a single act of indescretion...it was systematic adultery that could have easily continued for a long time. One of the reasons, lack of skill between the sheets, seems extremely shallow especially in light of the epic fail that was their first time. What's worse is the "upgrade"-motivation. The sub-human argument isn't just deeply condescending towards Hisao, but also to Lilly and to all the other people at Yamaku and that argument (which goes against the very aesop of the game) is what destroys the possibility of redemption.

- Despite the above, the story attempts the redemption anyway. If you go with the thought that Hisao is indeed a worthless excuse for a human being, the ending makes sense. Hanako's given Hisao another chance to be better than what the author perceived him to be, so maybe in the future Hanako won't be forced to try an upgrade. For someone whose view of Hisao is less drastic, the ending doesn't resolve anything. Hanako was simply sorry because her affair blew up in her face. The sex is still lousy and the matter of Brogurt's Hanako considering her schoolmates untermenschen wasn't addressed, so it wasn't resolved.

- The rape was just there as a shock element, not because there it added something to the story.

So yeah, the story's technically sound, but the premise and the way it was executed killed it.

[Oscar Wildecat]

...words...

Given the author's justifications for writing Mendacium (outside of disliking Hisao), I'm now convinced that it would have been better cast -- and probably far less OOC and controversial, as well -- if it were derived from Hanako's Neutral End. With that ending, where Hisao and Hanako have accepted (more-or-less) the protector/protected mindset, I can see where Hanako could grow weary of Hisao and cheat on him for very human, and very honest, reasons. (This, of course, assumes that they could even find their way out of the Friendzone in the first place, post Neutral End.)

[brythain]

...words...

Given the author's justifications for writing Mendacium (outside of disliking Hisao), I'm now convinced that it would have been better cast -- and probably far less OOC and controversial, as well -- if it were derived from Hanako's Neutral End. With that ending, where Hisao and Hanako have accepted (more-or-less) the protector/protected mindset, I can see where Hanako could grow weary of Hisao and cheat on him for very human, and very honest, reasons. (This, of course, assumes that they could even find their way out of the Friendzone in the first place, post Neutral End.)

In the Hanako neutral-ending, it wouldn't really be cheating on him. But it would fix the neutral end, possibly. In a warped way.

[Leaty]

I'm not going to lie; when I was reading Mendacium, I found myself wanting Brogurt to double down and actually have Hanako commit suicide.

I mean, the story was so bleak and the characters so unlikable that I really wanted to see the story go full-on Shakespearean Tragedy. When the story wound up having a happy ending, I felt very upset.

[Oddball]

At the end of the story Hanako isn't sorry she cheated on Hisao, she's still disappointed at him in bed, and still seems to think of the other people in Yamaku as broken people that are worthless and that she deserves better.

And despite telling Hisao about how her new boyfriend was better than him in ever way (especially in bed) and how he bought her all these nice things (and was better than Hisao in bed) and was this alpha male criminal type who's much cooler than Hisao (and better than him in bed), Hisao eventually forgives her because she is sad.

And if that's your idea of a happy ending, you're welcome to it.

[Mahorfeus]

That's summing it up more than a little bluntly, to say the least.

Hanako hated herself for what she did to Hisao because it pretty much proved that she was a broken, selfish person, and tried kill herself because of it. Not so much the same thing as an apology per se, but she knows that she made a mistake and felt bad for it - and by the end, not just because the entire situation bit her on the ass. I do not think that forgiving her is necessarily impossible for Hisao, or even implausible, but in my opinion, Brogurt's failure was in convincing the readers that Hisao's "mistakes" could in any way be considered equal to Hanako's. If he had just emphasized with the fact that Hanako came to the conclusion that she was indeed a broken piece of shit, I thought it might have worked a little better - instead, Hisao compares his faults to her own and decides that they are even.

Hardly a happy ending - a bittersweet one, at best.

This was a rather blatant writing experiment on Brogurt's part; his questioning of the audience in between installments made that pretty obvious. I think a lot of people have obfuscated his intentions in writing this as being far more malign than they actually were. While I certainly wouldn't call the story itself a failure, I would call it a failed experiment. Even with his revisions, Brogurt just couldn't suspend my disbelief, or almost anyone's for that matter.

[bhtooefr]

Oh god I forgot about that whole stunt he had Hanako pull, re: hating everyone for being katawas, and being associated with them. Ugh. You'd think she'd be the last person to have that mindset.

[Oddball]

This was a rather blatant writing experiment on Brogurt's part; his questioning of the audience in between installments made that pretty obvious. I think a lot of people have obfuscated his intentions in writing this as being far more malign than they actually were. While I certainly wouldn't call the story itself a failure, I would call it a failed experiment. Even with his revisions, Brogurt just couldn't suspend my disbelief, or almost anyone's for that matter.

Brogurt tried awfully hard. You can tell that he wanted his story to work it just didn't.

We know Hanako deeply values the friends she does have, we know she handled betrayal very very poorly, and we know she hates people looking down on her like she's not human.

This story had her abandoned and betray the person she cared moist about and looked down on everyone else including him as worthless, and frankly at that point, you might as well add a chapter where Kenji volunteers at feminist marches and Rin becomes a motivational speaker and therapist.

[brythain]

It's like watching the original thread unwind, but with slightly more clarity. I suppose that would be a successful experiment in YBC terms.

[forgetmenot]

Hmm. Mendācium. Been a while. Can't say that I remember it too fondly, nor did it make a stronger impression this time around. The writing itself is decent enough, and the story is paced well. It's also short enough for as one-note of a premise as it's got. That's about the only good thing about the story, though. It's implausible melodrama. Hanako stays in character for most of the time in which the story takes place, as does Hisao, but the premise is wildly off-base, which ruins the story from the get-go. However, as much has already been said.

I think what bothers me most about this story is the inclusion of Hanako's rape. If you look with any sort of analytic eye, it quickly becomes apparent that Hanako's rape is only included as a device so that her character is still somewhat redeemable to Hisao, so he stays with her. Brogurt clearly wanted to write a story about Hanako cheating on Hisao and then reconciling, but needed a Magic Wand™ in order to do it. "What's something that is so horrible, it makes even the most reprehensible actions forgivable? Oh, I know! Rape!"

At the risk of sounding self-important, I'll take the opportunity to quote myself from another thread:

...something as serious as rape being used to the effect of what amounts to little more than a plot device is not only distasteful, but also makes for bad fiction.

And that's really the crux of it. The story's whole lynchpin isn't character development, or romance, or thematic elements. It's a goddamn plot device. Rape happens to real people, and fucks up real lives, so you better be goddamn sure that you include it for the right reasons. Those being the reasons anything bad happens in good fiction of this nature: To test your characters - to show what they're made of in horrible situations. To reveal something about them, not to give the audience a reason to "not hate" them. It's cheap. And it's also in extremely poor taste.

*phew* Sorry, got a little worked up there. Carry on.

[Guest Poster]

Brogurt clearly wanted to write a story about Hanako cheating on Hisao and then reconciling, but needed a Magic Wand™ in order to do it. "What's something that is so horrible, it makes even the most reprehensible actions forgivable? Oh, I know! Rape!"

Hmmm, maybe. It's also possible he was in the "Hisao raped Hanako" camp in the early stages of the game's release, so maybe he intended it as a mirror for Hisao. (though I personally hope not) I do agree that the rape was just there. If Hanako's new fuckbuddy simply got bored of her and ditched her for someone else, the story wouldn't have been different.

[Mahorfeus]

I don't think the rape was just needlessly tossed in. The point was to give Hisao a reason to not just tell Hanako to fuck off, as he might have. The cheating makes her reprehensible in his eyes (at least initially), but the rape makes her a victim. It essentially gave him the reason to fall back on his old pattern of doting on her, instead of just dumping her. And thereby leading to his nonsensical conclusion that treating her that way to begin with was a mistake, just like her cheating, so they should just move past it. I think Hanako could be forgiven, I just find Hisao's particular reasoning for doing so really contrived and downright silly. No, it wasn't tasteful, but then again, I don't think rape is the kind of thing one can write about in good taste.

[brythain]

I don't think rape is the kind of thing one can write about in good taste.

I think that, even amongst other violent, invasive and brutal crimes, rape is pre-eminently distasteful. But it can be written about in better ways or worse ways.

[Mirage_GSM]

"What's something that is so horrible, it makes even the most reprehensible actions forgivable? Oh, I know! Rape!"

And not even that works.
Yes, by including the rape, Hanako is made a victim, but that does not make her actions before that any less reprehensible at all.
It might be a reason to pity her but not a reason to forgive her.

[brythain]

It might be a reason to pity her but not a reason to forgive her.

I tend to be redemptionist by philosophy, by which I mean that you may not need a reason to forgive someone; if you do, then you are transactionist (i.e., something for something). What I find sad about the whole thing is the piles and piles of spurious justifications for bad behaviour as well as good behaviour. In that sense, Brogurt was true to his theme of mendacity—they're both lying to themselves and to each other, and have been doing that a lot. Hanako is two-faced in more than one sense, and Hisao is weak-hearted the same way. If Brogurt was intending to build a house of cards that sets itself on fire and then leaves a pile of ashes which two people burrow into for comfort, he succeeded.