Katawa Shoujo Forums

A recent topic about Lilly's route being the only one with a epilogue had a small discussion talking about how dire the ending's even the good ones are. Up until today I haven't really thought about it much but now that I really think about it jeez some of these are pretty bad and at the very least all of them lead to uncertain of the future. So feel free to list them in order of sadness if you like. I think the sadness of the good endings goes a bit like this...
5. Emi (Kinda the most optimistic ending, Hisao's health is pretty good, not a lot of foreseeable problems here)
4. Lilly's (Yea Hisao has a lot of heart attacks on this route but most of the relationship issues seem to be solved at least for now)
3. Hanako (I had a hard time deciding between Rin and Hanako for number 3 but it seems to me this relationship had a better chance of working out)
2. Rin (Yea both Rin and Hisao went through a lot together and I'm sure they'll be friends for ever or something but their relationship as a couple might not be that long lasting)
1. Shizunes (Boy this one was depressing for a good ending, sure Hisao realizes he loves Shizune but their goals for the future don't seem like they will be able to live together atleast through collage, and Misha is leaving, still it did have that epic pose)

5. Lilly/Emi - Both set up for reasonably stable proceedings. Unless Emi relapses or Lilly gets roped into going to Scotland (again) further down the line, there's nothing immediately uncertain in the future.

4. Rin - These two are not a couple. They just aren't. And Rin can work with that but I can see Hisao becoming discontent in future. They'll stay friends, sure, but...Other prospects are poor.

3. Hanako - The ending's happy enough but it's not like Hanako's trauma and self-loathing have just magically evaporated in their entirety. Depression and jealousies are likely, and it'll take a saint's patience to keep it all held together until the end. Plus since it's Hanako, such problems will likely go unspoken and unresolved, which increases the odds of a future bad ending quite a lot.

2. Shizune - The ending has them parting ways with next-to-zero certainty that they will ever cross paths again. As an ending to what is essentially a romance-based story, this just sucks. But as an ending to a story in general, it's decent. They all at least seem content and sure of their paths.

1. Kenji - Hisao's dead AND it probably put a huge dark cloud over the festival.

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Xanatos wrote:4. Rin - These two are not a couple. They just aren't. And Rin can work with that but I can see Hisao becoming discontent in future. They'll stay friends, sure, but...Other prospects are poor.

Y'know, despite some evidence to the contrary, I sometimes wonder if Rin isn't actually asexual. At the least, she doesn't have the sex drive of the other girls.
My vote for the saddest good end would be Lilly's. Yeah, hers and Hanako's are both tear jerkers, but in Lilly's, Hisao has just given himself another heart attack, possibly further shortening an already shortened lifespan.

I could be wrong about that, but I'm not sure if Hisao's "heart attacks" have the same lasting effect as ordinary heart attacks.

During an ordinary heart attack, the coronary arteries get clogged up, the heart gets deprived of oxygen and it gets damaged as a result. Hisao's heart attacks aren't really heart attacks...his coronary arteries are probably fine, his heart rhythm simply goes out of control to the point where it can endanger his life. But I'm not sure if his episodes damage his heart the same way an ordinary heart attack would.

emmjay wrote:My vote for the saddest good end would be Lilly's.

Holy shit. The one answer I did not expect anyone to defend, boom, right off the bat. I thought Lilly's good end was supposed to be the ultimate feelgood fairy-tale fantasy of lollipops and rainbows? (Not my accusation, but a common one)

Xanatos wrote:1. Kenji - Hisao's dead AND it probably put a huge dark cloud over the festival.

Kenji's wasn't a good end though

Atario wrote:

emmjay wrote:My vote for the saddest good end would be Lilly's.

Holy shit. The one answer I did not expect anyone to defend, boom, right off the bat. I thought Lilly's good end was supposed to be the ultimate feelgood fairy-tale fantasy of lollipops and rainbows? (Not my accusation, but a common one)

I also voted for Lilly's. Way too many unresolved issues, and the fact that the heart issues themselves seem to play too much of a role in the progression of the relationship, which makes the ending (sans epilogue) more bittersweet to me.

To rank the rest:

5. Shizune - yes, least sad. Endings where everyone knows where they stand (even if where they stand happens to be in limbo) tend to work out better, because there's at least a clear direction in which they can try and move.

4. Hanako - New starts that actually are new starts are good too .

3. Emi - A sweet ending, yes, but I wonder if the relationship is based on something too narrow.

2. Rin - Really nice ending, but there's still a huge communication gap going on - starting to be bridged, yes, but still a lot of work ahead - and that's never a good thing.

1. Lilly - see above.

Atario wrote:

emmjay wrote:My vote for the saddest good end would be Lilly's.

Holy shit. The one answer I did not expect anyone to defend, boom, right off the bat. I thought Lilly's good end was supposed to be the ultimate feelgood fairy-tale fantasy of lollipops and rainbows? (Not my accusation, but a common one)

Well, leading up to this end, Lilly decided to ditch Hisao and only decided to return, when he nearly died - which is not a stable basis for a relationship.
So there are a lot of issues that are not resolved and may resurface at any time.
I wouldn't exactly call this end "sad", but then I wouldn't call any of the good endings sad, and Lilly's comes closest in my opinion.

Steinherz wrote:

Xanatos wrote:1. Kenji - Hisao's dead AND it probably put a huge dark cloud over the festival.

Kenji's wasn't a good end though

It is for the feminists...

@Mirage: It wasn't his near-death that made her stay. It was the fact that he actually showed the slightest bit of initiative and will for once by coming after her.

Actually, Lilly's presence in the hospital in the second-to-last scene might have been a result of her temporary suspending her trip due to wanting to be with Hisao while he was recuperating. Personally, I think the event that REALLY caused Lilly to stay in Japan was Hisao essentially repeating the talk they had in the Shanghai ("Why are you leaving?" "My parents and Akira...") and saying the right thing this time.

Guest Poster wrote:Actually, Lilly's presence in the hospital in the second-to-last scene might have been a result of her temporary suspending her trip due to wanting to be with Hisao while he was recuperating. Personally, I think the event that REALLY caused Lilly to stay in Japan was Hisao essentially repeating the talk they had in the Shanghai ("Why are you leaving?" "My parents and Akira...") and saying the right thing this time.

I think you're right. Had he said anything at the Shanghai even slightly indicative of wanting her to stay, I believe she would have in a second. It's a little messed-up that she leaves all the initiative to him, but he fails to show any at all too. So, as usual, blame lies all around.

Finally playing through Lilly's route for the second time I have to say though that Lilly really seems quite reluctant to just accept that Hisao really does genuinely love her.

The day after returning from their Hokkaido trip Hisao and Lilly meet up in the tea room and this is part of the conversation:

Hisao
"I know everything happened in kind of a hurry, but... I don't regret anything that happened in Hokkaido. Not one thing."

Lilly
"Hisao... ?"

Hisao
"I stand by my words back there, Lilly. I love you, and I won't leave you. I only wish for you to think the same.

Then follows a kiss and Lilly stating: "Hearing that makes me very happy, Hisao. I would be glad to stay with you."

Haven't played much farther yet and I guess quite a bit more happens before the Shanghai scene, yet I'm a bit surprised that Lilly would require that much more reassurance.

Anyways, that may be a bit more suited to the Lilly route discussion from some time ago ;P

Atario wrote:

Guest Poster wrote:Actually, Lilly's presence in the hospital in the second-to-last scene might have been a result of her temporary suspending her trip due to wanting to be with Hisao while he was recuperating. Personally, I think the event that REALLY caused Lilly to stay in Japan was Hisao essentially repeating the talk they had in the Shanghai ("Why are you leaving?" "My parents and Akira...") and saying the right thing this time.

I think you're right. Had he said anything at the Shanghai even slightly indicative of wanting her to stay, I believe she would have in a second. It's a little messed-up that she leaves all the initiative to him, but he fails to show any at all too. So, as usual, blame lies all around.

Wasn't Lilly's route also subverting the stereotype of Japanese people (and by extension, everyone) not being honest with others?
Lilly's route had 3 choices, not being honest with her on any of them automatically gave the Bad End.

Wasn't Lilly's route also subverting the stereotype of Japanese people (and by extension, everyone) not being honest with others?
Lilly's route had 3 choices, not being honest with her on any of them automatically gave the Bad End.

I don't really think so. If anything, Lilly's route plays the notion of the traditional Japanese way of preferring the maintainance of surface harmony over socially awkward, but straight-forward confrontations perfectly straight.

I don't think the point of those options was about being honest with Lilly. The options don't affect Lilly's behavior at all. No matter what you do, Lilly still leaves Yamaku. What the options determine is Hisao's character growth. If he's unable to be honest with himself and unable to face his issues and shortcomings (shown by sweeping them under the rug whenever Lilly brings them up), he'll be also be unable to deal with Lilly's departure. If you did make him grow just that little bit by being a bit more open about himself, allowing Lilly in turn to offer emotional support about it, he'll have matured just enough to stop the self-pity and go after her after she leaves.

So the 3 choices don't determine Lilly's growth, but rather Hisao's.

Guest Poster wrote:So the 3 choices don't determine Lilly's growth, but rather Hisao's.

You're really good at this, y'know? It's almost like you wrote everyone's favorite fanfic or something…