Shizune Arc (misha, jigoro)

[metalangel]

@Steinherz too:

It's said that Shizune makes barely any noise during sex. (i don't know how realistic that is, but it's what the author told us).

Some hearing girls make barely any noise either. Deaf people, like Shizune, understand the concept of sound - Shizune snaps her fingers or bangs on tables to get people's attention, like Deaf people IRL - and knows to keep it down when she's in her family's house!

[ProfAllister]

What if the author actually intended that Hisao doesn't think about it, or he didn't thought about it himself?

That's pretty much what I had assumed, and, really, it's not that unusual. If life's moving quickly, you don't really have the time, opportunity, or inclination to stop and take a look at where you are or what's going on. Hisao's lack of reflection is key - that's the whole point of the decision. He doesn't know well enough how he feels about his relationship with Shizune. If he chooses Misha, it's more or less for the reasons you're talking about - there haven't really been the obvious external signs of a relationship, so Hisao doesn't really know whether Shizune cares about the relationship. Your choice answers the question about whether Hisao cares. And the ending, either way, reveals that she does in fact care about her relationship with Hisao.

It all comes down to communication - the overriding theme of the entire route (and, by my reading, the underlying element in all the conflicts throughout).

The only innuendo i can think of would be groupsex or circle jerking, but both seem farfetched for me. Also, that's something all six of them could do at the same time...?

Something sexual would be the most likely. But there are all sorts of variations. While "get in a pile and start humping" is certainly an option, it usually tends to be more complex and organised. So, for example, you start with a few people in certain positions before the rest join in.

I were quite sure that he was sarcastic when he said that he's glad that the group enjoyed using his equipement. Are you sure that he wasn't sarcastic?

Sarcasm is certainly possible, but he was still largely playing the role of gracious host at the time. Perhaps a little passive-aggressive, but there's no reason we should outright dismiss the idea of taking his words at face value. If it's possible for his statement to make sense in that light, it's at least worth considering.

That was afterwards. If Person A insults Person B multiple times, and Person B answers snappy afterwards, why would you hint at person B and be like "oh look how rude he is!"?

There's little if any gap. Jigoro says "I'm sure you like huffing glue." Hisao says "No I don't. Why would you think that?" Hideaki says that's slander, then Hisao agrees and pulls out the lawyer non-sequitur. Hardly model behavior.

As for whether or not it's slander, that's really a question of legal terminology. And I'd be inclined to say no, because slander is generally done in a public context, or through gossip. "I'm sure you like huffing glue" wasn't even necessarily meant as an accusation, more to make the point that liking something doesn't justify it. That reading even almost justifies the "because you're stupid" line.

On the subject of third year being dominated by studying, I'm compelled to point out that this is a school for the disabled. Japan has... issues with regard to how they deal with the disabled. Frankly, I expect that very few students have very high hopes about attending any university at all.

And with regard to deafies and sex, there's variation in noisiness, just like the hearing. Some are loud, some are quiet. Shizune, we'll note, makes a point of stifling all her vocalisations. I'm fairly certain it even notes that she tries to keep from moaning. That being said, neither of them were terribly likely to notice if the chair was making noise. Whether or not anyone else was aware depends on whether Misha was still running interference and whatever Hideaki was doing.

Either way, Jigoro wouldn't need proof to make the assumption that his daughter's fertile fields were being well-plowed.

...well, maybe not well-plowed. Hisao probably couldn't tell an ox's front from it's back. But it would be safe for Jigoro to assume that he at least made an effort to turn the soil.

[Archimedes]

The answer is simple - Shizune has agency, and she makes her own decisions. Reconciliation may be possible, but only if she allows it. Someone determined to get her to communicate, even if only using "positive" methods still denies her agency, and thus her personhood. There is a reasonable level of effort that should be attempted, but there's a point where you just have to accept that it's her decision.

Most likely, they share in the blame.

It's not something you should accept lightheartedly. No Sane father would accept it so easily if his daughter wouldn't talk to him for years. How much agency do you attribute to someone who is probably learning the alphabet? That is ridiculous.

Here, take a look at "child development tracker", to get a feeling what a six year old is like: http://www.pbs.org/parents/childdevelopmenttracker/six/

- or take a look at this quotes:

Begins to identify reasons for others' feelings (e.g., says, "He's feeling sad because..."), but typically offers reasons for others' feelings based on direct observations or experiences (e.g., "...he fell down." or "...he didn't get to stay up late.").

In mathematics, six-year-olds can typically count up to "200" and count backwards from "20." They understand the concept of "odd" and "even" numbers and can represent numbers on a number line or with written words.

If they haven’t already mastered concepts of time, 6-year-olds will work on learning about hours and minutes and the days of the week.

Scientific discovery for children this age is affected by their tendency to straddle the world between make-believe and reality. Six-year-olds might continue to give animals human characteristics, such as suggesting what a worm might be thinking, or that a butterfly has eye lashes. [...]

Six-year-olds continue to enjoy moving in a variety of ways. Although far from proficient in motor skills[...]Their hand- and foot-eye coordination is still developing, so skills like throwing, catching, kicking and striking are still emerging.

Begins to recognize that water changes back and forth between liquid and solid due to changes in temperature. May be able to state that water turns into a gas, but has limited if any understanding of why this happens.

They start to display an increasing awareness of their own and others' emotions and begin to develop better techniques for self-control.

It's a age where she can count from 20 backwards, believe that animals think like humans, start to get aware that other people have feelings too (but can't fully empathize yet), is still developing her motor skills, learns that a week consists of 7 days and that water freezes to ice.

All the things mentioned don't happen immediately she turns six years old, but between her sixth and seventh age!

How hard can it be to persuade someone who can barely count from 20 backwards, who thinks that the only reason that someone may feel sad is that he fell or wasn't allowed to stay up late?

How stubborn can someone possibly be, who is learning techniques for self-control and still has a hard time doing so? Who has a 5 minute attention span?

How much responsibility can someone have for his own actions, who isn't really able yet to add and subtract numbers? (like, 3+17) - because that is something they will learn between 7 and 8 years?

I could go more into detail by taking a look at the development of a typical 7 and 8 year old child and thus state everything a six year old isn't able to do yet.

For example, this one important thing a child learns between 7 and 8:

Is able to describe the causes and consequences of various emotions, most often on the basis of situational factors that can be readily observed (e.g., says, "He got mad because the kids were mean to him.").

If Shizune's brain didn't developed drastically different, then she wasn't even able to comprehend and describe that someone else could get mad because someone was mean to him. (it's hard to believe that 6y old child isn't able to do so, isn't it? Because things like that feel absolute natural for an adult.)

Now, are you still willing to argue that a 6/7/8 year old child is considerable to blame? I say that you can't win this, and if you are willing to argue that someone who can't even subtract numbers (like 10-3=7) is considerable responsible for his actions, you will only ridicule yourself.

So, is it really necessary that i explain the lack of cognitive and emotional ability from a 6/7/8/9 year old in detail (you would be surprised how slowly attention span, sense of justice and self control emerge), or can we spare that discussion?

And I'd be inclined to say no, because slander is generally done in a public context, or through gossip. "I'm sure you like huffing glue" wasn't even necessarily meant as an accusation, more to make the point that liking something doesn't justify it. That reading even almost justifies the "because you're stupid" line.

I don't know about japan, but where i live it's slander to call a pilot a bus driver. There are even minor things that can be (and are) legally considered as slander/factual claim. Don't forget the greeting. It would be hard to prove in the case of Hisao, though.

To make that Point he could just as well used a theoretical person. (some people like to sniff glue, does that make it right?). That wasn't an objective argument.

Even if it wouldn't be considered Slander, it's not far stretched.

Whether our not there is a right answer is irrelevant. The point is that Hisao's reply was wrong. But, since it wasn't really a question, out would be best to ignore it. If he keeps harping on it, challenging him on the facts would have more merit. It might not succeed, but it would be a better response.

I don't think it's irrelevant. In that case you blame hisao in being wrong at something he can't be right at - how is he to blame, then?

Also, i believe that you had blamed him just as well if he ignored it. (beta behavior, rude, not defending...)

The worst that Hisao did was changing the subject, accidentally saying something awkward and asking Jigoro for his profession (so far, nobody answered my question if they hadn't asked a guy always wearing a katana what his profession is).

Now, be honest. Have you never ever changed the subject if you didn't wanted to talk about something (especially at the parents of your GF?), accidentally said something in such a way that it sounded ambiguous or asked some question that could possibly be considered rude to ask? (i don't even see why it is, maybe it's a cultural thing) - Especially back in the days when you were still a teenager / young adult? I believe that everyone did.

Well, except you say that the worst thing he did was for simply being Hisao, what you basically do if you say he is wrong even though he possibly couldn't be right.

I can easily see that Hisao isn't good enough in the eyes of Jigoro, who seems to have unrealistic expectations. (First, Shizune isn't the perfect match either, really. Shes deaf, shes strange, stubborn, childish and cold. She has a broken childhood and she goes to the same school as Hisao and has only a vague idea about what to do with her life. That aren't the best premises to date a demigod. Second, Hisao almost died and just spent a few months in a hospital and found out that his live will possibly be quite short. Afterwards he went to a school for disabled people. He gets exhausted by even minor activity. How "alpha" can someone in his situation be?)

That may explain, but doesn't justify the insults from Jigoro, who also is a grown up man and should act like one.

Something sexual would be the most likely. But there are all sorts of variations. While "get in a pile and start humping" is certainly an option, it usually tends to be more complex and organised. So, for example, you start with a few people in certain positions before the rest join in.

The innuendo doesn't seem obvious for me, but i take your word for it. In that case Jigoros response makes sense.

[Xanatos]

Here, take a look at "child development tracker", to get a feeling what a six year old is like: http://www.pbs.org/parents/childdevelopmenttracker/six/

Human beings, regardless of age, can't be reduced to an online "development tracker". Hell, the first few sentences on that page can be paraphrased as "Trackers are kinda bullshit."

What I'm getting out of all of this is that Shizune was young and therefore completely without blame for any decision she makes and willfully carries years into the future when she's older. Again, I can only imagine what an amazing parent you might be...

At the risk of an absurd analogy, if a small child shoots a guy in the head, are they totally free of responsibility for their actions just because they don't understand death? No. And they're damn well not free of responsibility if they're still shooting people after twelve years.

[ProfAllister]

It's not something you should accept lightheartedly. No Sane father would accept it so easily if his daughter wouldn't talk to him for years. How much agency do you attribute to someone who is probably learning the alphabet? That is ridiculous.

First off, where did anyone imply that this was accepted lightheartedly? Who ever said he'd easily accept it? All we see is the end result at the latter end of the 12 years. At the end of 12 years, he has in all likelihood tried everything you could think of and then some. He admits that he's not too proud to consult experts. He isn't saying "Eh, fuck her. I gave it a good try. At least I have Hideaki." He's saying "You seriously think you have a better idea of how I should interact with my own daughter? You've known her for two months. I have done everything for her, and she still rejects me."

And you know what? Even after that, you know what he does? He listens to Hisao! He is so desperate to reestablish a connection with his daughter that he does EXACTLY what the worthless glue-huffing delinquent suggested. It fails, but he takes the time out of his busy schedule to travel over to their boondocks and watch her feats of self-aggrandisement.

Or, I guess we can take your interpretation that Jigoro really is only skin deep, and he really traveled all the way to their school because he can't be bothered to use any long-distance form of communication to let her know that he has a new phone - even when neither of them EVER use their phones. And the camping trip was because... bear livers, I guess? And the "call if you need anything" was really nothing more than a formality.

Yeah, Jigoro really IS shallow if you insist on taking everything at face value. Never mind that even Hisao is intelligent enough to recognise that Jigoro really does care about her.

[Lecture on Child Development]

Now, are you still willing to argue that a 6/7/8 year old child is considerable to blame? I say that you can't win this, and if you are willing to argue that someone who can't even subtract numbers (like 10-3=7) is considerable responsible for his actions, you will only ridicule yourself.

So, is it really necessary that i explain the lack of cognitive and emotional ability from a 6/7/8/9 year old in detail (you would be surprised how slowly attention span, sense of justice and self control emerge), or can we spare that discussion?

You aren't the only one who's studied child development. Unfortunately, you're talking as someone who doesn't seem to have ever actually interacted with a child of that age. (I may be wrong, but that's the implication of your words.)

I will concede, most children don't mean it when they say "I'll never speak to you ever again." It is very much unusual for a child to stop speaking to her father for 12 years regardless of the circumstances. You claim it must be Jigoro's fault. What, pray tell, could he possibly have done to so scar this 6-year-old that she absolutely refuses to talk to him?

If, as you so delicately imply, it were some sort of physical or sexual abuse, there would be scars - emotional if not physical. If she were sexually abused, she would not have her "healthy adolescent sex drive." If she were abused physically or sexually, do you really think that Akira, a motherfucking lawyer with rich and powerful connections (who have no love for Jigoro) who has been unafraid to express her distaste for parents who fail to perform their parental duties, would simply stand by and watch this go on? Doing nothing more than occasionally "babysitting" Hideaki?

One possibility, and in my opinion the most likely, is that Jigoro talks with his children like you would talk with adults.

What does this even mean? Have you ever seen a situation where anything like that works? In any situation that I can think of that may be similar, the child might be repelled at first, but he quickly recognises what the adult is trying to do, especially when it's a relation as close as your own father.

Taking the rest of your idea, "the father she never had," it could perhaps work if Jigoro was always absent. But that doesn't jibe with what we see of him. He's a man who does things himself - he's rich enough to hire a full-time cook, or some sort of similar waitstaff, yet he chooses to cook himself. He could have easily hired a messenger to let Shizune know that he had a new phone (or even made some arrangement with Akira, considering how often she has Hideaki tagging along), but he went himself. He is extremely busy, admitted, but he seems pretty inclined to give himself 100% in everything he does, which would include spending time with/doing things for his kids (remarkably like a certain Student Council president...).

But let's look at what little we have to go on from the canon. I'll let Hisao take the stage, just after Jigoro's Act 4 appearance:

Neither of them can express their feelings very well. In Shizune's case, I have to question whether she would if she could. It explains a lot, but she doesn't seem unhappy with the arrangement. Even so, I wonder if she might be.

And then his conversation with Shizune:

It's totally ridiculous asking me to go on a trip. The timing couldn't be worse, it overlaps the student council elections, for one. Second, I haven't even cheered up Misha. If you consider that, it's annoying to even have anything else to think about.
...
I think your dad might care about you more than he lets on.
I know.

And then he reflects on her manner of thinking:

I remember what Yuuko said, that she found Shizune brave, in a kind of way. I think I understand what she meant, and I have to agree. Even though it could also be called recklessness, and foolishness, and pointless stubbornness, I guess you could call it “bravery” too. However, I can see that there is a fundamental flaw in Shizune's thinking that I hadn't noticed until now. [...] Shizune's way of thinking is abnormal. Few normal people would reject a friend, and then expect things to go back to the way they were so easily. Shizune does, because she sees life as, if I had to put it simply, capable of being segmented and compartmentalized. [...] For Shizune, an event is an event, and few of them cross over. Life is compartmentalized around triumphs, failures, and decisions, where each one stands as its own story. It's why the thought of a vacation is jarring to her. It's why she can only appreciate people's immediate emotions. It's exactly how someone obsessed with living in the moment would think, really.

That character sketch, in all honesty, doesn't really jibe with any of your theories. But we do have two other instances of long-term animus from Shizune - Lilly and (bad end) Hisao. The common thread is that she defines people. Shizune and Lilly had a falling out because Shizune came to the conclusion that Lilly is lazy, thoughtless, and irresponsible. She breaks up with Hisao because she comes to the conclusion that he has decided that it's okay to lie to her.


So what does she say about Jigoro? That he interrogates guests, he says insulting things about her friends, he proposes absurdities like trading hairstyles, and ... he has bad timing? I can see her being annoyed about those sorts of things, but it's nowhere near the breaches of trust that Lilly and Hisao are guilty of.

This all leads me to think that this isn't a long-term single event sort of thing. If it's not a single key point, Jigoro could be expected to be at a loss. It can't be a matter of Shizune defining him as a persona non grata because she accepts that he cares about her more than he lets on - which in Shizune-ese means that Jigoro is defined by his inability to properly express how much he cares for her.

And now, well... I need to think about this more. I'm trying to put the pieces together, but none of them fit. Hopefully things will be clearer after I sleep on it.

As it concerns Jigoro, though, when I see his comment about 12 years, I don't see him being casual or dismissive. I see a broken man, trying to figure out where he's gone wrong. "You don't know who I am. You don't know what I've done. You have no idea the troubles I've been through. And yet you think you know better than me how I should live my life. You think you know better than me how I should treat my daughter. I have spared no effort and no expense to give her the best life possible, in spite of her disability, and yet she rejects me. She has rejected me since she was a very small child. And now you're telling me that I can make everything better by going to see what she's done at her school, give her a big smile, and tell her she's done a great job? If it were that simple, I would have done it years ago."

I don't know about japan, but where i live it's slander to call a pilot a bus driver. There are even minor things that can be (and are) legally considered as slander/factual claim. Don't forget the greeting. It would be hard to prove in the case of Hisao, though.

And that's why we should probably avoid discussing the legal intricacies of whether or not it's actual slander. Legal definition aside, the accusation of slander for such a benign comment is essentially "You hurt my feelings! I'm telling!" Hardly a mature response.

To make that Point he could just as well used a theoretical person. (some people like to sniff glue, does that make it right?). That wasn't an objective argument.

And yet several times through this entire discussion, just about every one of us had trod dangerously close to ad hominem. You are correct that a legitimate debate should remain in the abstract. But it doesn't always happen that way, and a needlessly antagonistic response shouldn't be legally actionable, nor should it be considered definitive proof that an individual is an irredeemable asshole.

I don't think it's irrelevant. In that case you blame hisao in being wrong at something he can't be right at - how is he to blame, then?

Even if the best answer is still a wrong answer, it isn't a binary situation. Let's pretend that, rather than "I like my sweater," Hisao said "Your daughter thinks it's great - especially the way it stimulates her bare nipples." I think we can agree that that is an example of a very wrong answer. If every choice loses points, they're all "wrong" choices. In that situation, the "right" choice would be the "best" choice - the one that loses the fewest points.

So yes, he can be blamed for giving a boneheaded answer, even if there's no "right" answer.

Also, i believe that you had blamed him just as well if he ignored it. (beta behavior, rude, not defending...)

Are you making assumptions about what I would have done were the circumstances different (i.e., Hisao ignores Jigoro's sweatervest comment and Jigoro gets angry because of it)? I'm not sure what difference that makes at all. Of course I'm going to based my interpretation on the actual text. If Jigoro flew into an insane rage every time Hisao said the word "cantaloupe," then a reasonable person would conclude that there's something about the way Hisao says "cantaloupe" that angers Jigoro. So I'm not really getting what point you were trying to make with that statement.

The worst that Hisao did was changing the subject, accidentally saying something awkward and asking Jigoro for his profession (so far, nobody answered my question if they hadn't asked a guy always wearing a katana what his profession is).

Now, be honest. Have you never ever changed the subject if you didn't wanted to talk about something (especially at the parents of your GF?), accidentally said something in such a way that it sounded ambiguous or asked some question that could possibly be considered rude to ask? (i don't even see why it is, maybe it's a cultural thing) - Especially back in the days when you were still a teenager / young adult? I believe that everyone did.

We only have the words (and delivered from a biased party, at that). Tone, facial expression, and body language are all absent. Take a simple phrase like "What did you eat for dinner?" Say it out loud, emphasising a different word each time. You'll get six very different questions. And that's just word emphasis. And the meaning shifts again if you say it with a sarcastic tone, a playful tone, a suspicious tone. And then there are the subtle cues of body language, eye contact, and so on and so forth. So it's actually pretty hard to get an honest evaluation of whether Jigoro was on a short fuse or Hisao was being a dick (or both - both is also an option).

And whether or not I've said or done something stupid in my life is also irrelevant. a stupid action is a stupid action. Some people are more gracious than others, and may be more charitable in ignoring the offense, especially if it's an honest mistake. But (for example) an orthodox Jew is perfectly justified in taking offense at your gift of bacon-wrapped scallops.

I can easily see that Hisao isn't good enough in the eyes of Jigoro, who seems to have unrealistic expectations. (First, Shizune isn't the perfect match either, really. Shes deaf, shes strange, stubborn, childish and cold. She has a broken childhood and she goes to the same school as Hisao and has only a vague idea about what to do with her life. That aren't the best premises to date a demigod. Second, Hisao almost died and just spent a few months in a hospital and found out that his live will possibly be quite short. Afterwards he went to a school for disabled people. He gets exhausted by even minor activity. How "alpha" can someone in his situation be?)

You say Jigoro has "unrealistic expectations." With the possible exception of his ranting about how inadequate the Student Council is (and even there, he does have a bit of a point in the aggregate if not the specifics), where does he EVER cite an unreasonable standard? As for Hisao, I never really said he had to be an alpha - that may be far too much to expect from him. The issue is that Hisao's a dead fish. That aside, alpha's a state of mind. It's (among other things) the drive to overcome adversity. Wouldn't that be kind of meaningless if adversity made it impossible to be an alpha?

That may explain, but doesn't justify the insults from Jigoro, who also is a grown up man and should act like one.

And it's very possible that he normally acts like one. I already presented (with some basis) the idea that Hisao brings out the worst in Jigoro. That doesn't justify his actions, but there's quite a divide between "wild man-child" and "loses temper from prolonged exposure to daughter's loser boyfriend."

The innuendo doesn't seem obvious for me, but i take your word for it. In that case Jigoros response makes sense.

From the words alone, no, it's not obvious. Refer back to my comment about how there's much more than just the words in actual communication. If we're generous to Hisao, he spoke normally and Jigoro was actively looking to take offense. If we're generous to Jigoro, Hisao was being a smartass (and possibly knew exactly what he was doing).

[Archimedes]

Just a quick answer (lack of time):

Here, take a look at "child development tracker", to get a feeling what a six year old is like: http://www.pbs.org/parents/childdevelopmenttracker/six/

Human beings, regardless of age, can't be reduced to an online "development tracker". Hell, the first few sentences on that page can be paraphrased as "Trackers are kinda bullshit."

[...]

At the risk of an absurd analogy, if a small child shoots a guy in the head, are they totally free of responsibility for their actions just because they don't understand death? No. And they're damn well not free of responsibility if they're still shooting people after twelve years.

Well, the justice in my country thinks this way. No, we don't have any known 10 year old serial killers in my country.

But yea, you surely know better then them.

And yea, it's different once they got old enough. But if Shizune doesn't needed a father to talk to before she went 12, she won't need one afterwards.

Yeah, Jigoro really IS shallow if you insist on taking everything at face value. Never mind that even Hisao is intelligent enough to recognise that Jigoro really does care about her.

That whole Jigoro part of the story is simply unbelievable in my opinion.

It could also be that Jigoro just started to care for her, but she thinks it's too late (that would at least be plausible).

If, as you so delicately imply, it were some sort of physical or sexual abuse, there would be scars - emotional if not physical. If she were sexually abused, she would not have her "healthy adolescent sex drive." If she were abused physically or sexually, do you really think that Akira, a motherfucking lawyer with rich and powerful connections (who have no love for Jigoro) who has been unafraid to express her distaste for parents who fail to perform their parental duties, would simply stand by and watch this go on? Doing nothing more than occasionally "babysitting" Hideaki?

Some people that got sexually abused have unusual high sex drive as adults, that doesn't exclude.

No, i doubt that this is the actual case. But even childs that get abused in such a way tend to speak with their parents. (they may stop once they are old enough, but the choices of a child are quite limited)

As it concerns Jigoro, though, when I see his comment about 12 years, I don't see him being casual or dismissive. I see a broken man, trying to figure out where he's gone wrong. "You don't know who I am. You don't know what I've done. You have no idea the troubles I've been through. And yet you think you know better than me how I should live my life. You think you know better than me how I should treat my daughter. I have spared no effort and no expense to give her the best life possible, in spite of her disability, and yet she rejects me. She has rejected me since she was a very small child. And now you're telling me that I can make everything better by going to see what she's done at her school, give her a big smile, and tell her she's done a great job? If it were that simple, I would have done it years ago."

So, you really believe that it's not slightly exaggerated that a daughter doesn't talk to her father for the rest of her life if he does try to be a good father?

I know that it's stated a few times in the story that he actually does care about shizune, but it doesn't fit.

As i initially said, i believe that the Author wanted to suggest that Shizune is that way because of her childhood, but went to far (so that it is unbelievable). That was the actual thing that disturbed me, not that Jigoro is an asshole, but that he is unbelievable.

So, you are basically telling that a six year old decided to completely exclude her father - who simply tried to do the best for her - because of spite, or what? Do you really think that's plausible?

From the words alone, no, it's not obvious. Refer back to my comment about how there's much more than just the words in actual communication. If we're generous to Hisao, he spoke normally and Jigoro was actively looking to take offense. If we're generous to Jigoro, Hisao was being a smartass (and possibly knew exactly what he was doing).

Well, we could just assume that Hisao shout every sentence, but there is no hint in the story.

Such things should be explicit noted by the author.

[Shail]

Shizune arc is often referred to as the worst of the 5 routes. After playing it I can kind of see why, it lacked... feeling I guess? There was no attatchment formed for me at all during the entire route, there was only one choice and it was eh, lacking? I wouldn't say it sucked, but I didn't feel anything the entire route on both good and bad endings. I got some giggles out of the fishing scene and the scenes with Shizune's dad, but throughout the entire route I got the strong impression that the path writer just wasn't giving his best effort, where as some of the other routes you can tell that alot of effort was put forth to make them high quality.

~Ending was anti-climatic, no attatchment or thrill throughout the entire route for me, overall I'd give it a *meh*

[Xanatos]

Well, the justice in my country thinks this way. No, we don't have any known 10 year old serial killers in my country.

But yea, you surely know better then them.

And yea, it's different once they got old enough. But if Shizune doesn't needed a father to talk to before she went 12, she won't need one afterwards.

So, you are basically telling that a six year old decided to completely exclude her father - who simply tried to do the best for her - because of spite, or what? Do you really think that's plausible?

Justice is due consequence for all actions, period. No country on Earth has real justice, mostly because people can't stomach dealing out what's deserved. But that's an entirely different topic. You kinda failed to actually say anything with that though...

Oh, she won't? Can you read the future? Thought not. And whoever said she never needed one anyway? It's entirely possible to need something and refuse to seek it out (or even acknowledge the need) out of stubbornness or spite, resources which Shizune has in great supply. And even barring that possibility, her own decision to prolong the conflict is still her own fault and flaw, not Jigoro's.

Spite is petty. Spite is childish. Spite is cruel. Guess who is completely capable of petty, childish cruelty? Humans in general, but especially children. A far better question would be how isn't it plausible, especially considering even the grown Shizune shows she is not above spite and grudges?

[Xanatos]

high quality

What of Shizune's route lacks quality? Your lack of attachment and/or feeling says more about personal taste than the route's quality.

[Shail]

high quality

What of Shizune's route lacks quality? Your lack of attachment and/or feeling says more about personal taste than the route's quality.

Don't get me wrong, I like Shizune's character, cute intelligent girls with glasses, ambition and motivation, on top of being competitive and loves games? Sounds great to me, not to mention her sexual preferences are pretty appealing as well.

But while other routes are going into deep back stories, why they are there, and Hisao helping them get through their problems and the pair getting closer together as a result, with Shizune it's just pretty... normal? You hang out a bit, the only time the two of you ever hug or kiss almost always leads to sex(not necessarily a bad thing), and that happens maybe twice, while with some of the other girls it's hugs and cuddles(Hanako). Shizune didn't really have any problem, some minor issues with Misha moping, and Shizune getting depressed and upset over the next student council/Misha, but there was no real plot to it. You hung out, end of the year came, minor high school drama, year ends with wierd pose, and it doesn't even say if they stayed together after that.

[Xanatos]

high quality

What of Shizune's route lacks quality? Your lack of attachment and/or feeling says more about personal taste than the route's quality.

Don't get me wrong, I like Shizune's character, cute intelligent girls with glasses, ambition and motivation, on top of being competitive and loves games? Sounds great to me, not to mention her sexual preferences are pretty appealing as well.

But while other routes are going into deep back stories, why they are there, and Hisao helping them get through their problems and the pair getting closer together as a result, with Shizune it's just pretty... normal? You hang out a bit, the only time the two of you ever hug or kiss almost always leads to sex(not necessarily a bad thing), and that happens maybe twice, while with some of the other girls it's hugs and cuddles(Hanako). Shizune didn't really have any problem, some minor issues with Misha moping, and Shizune getting depressed and upset over the next student council/Misha, but there was no real plot to it. You hung out, end of the year came, minor high school drama, year ends with weird pose, and it doesn't even say if they stayed together after that.

What you've just described is a genre called slice-of-life. It's exactly what it says on the tin.

Point out any given person on the street. The chances of them having some deep trouble that they work through with the help of a future love are rather slimmer than the chances of them just...Well, living a life without any particularly severe difficulty. The average person is Shizune, not Hanako. The criticism you're looking for is less "The other routes were more high quality" and more "I don't like this genre". Not for everybody but the writer probably knew that.

[Shail]

Shizune's arc was dry compared to the others I liked Rin's arc, it was confusing as hell and pretty funny at times, but it was fun.

[Xanatos]

Shizune's arc was dry compared to the others I liked Rin's arc, it was confusing as hell and pretty funny at times, but it was fun.

A confusing and often tragic tale of inner turmoil and interpersonal conflict is fun...And hanging out with a cute girl who likes you and gives you sex while not burdening you with deep complex personal issues isn't so fun?

Fair enough. We've all got our preference.

[Shail]

Shizune's arc was dry compared to the others I liked Rin's arc, it was confusing as hell and pretty funny at times, but it was fun.

A confusing and often tragic tale of inner turmoil and interpersonal conflict is fun...And hanging out with a cute girl who likes you and gives you sex while not burdening you with deep complex personal issues isn't so fun?

Fair enough. We've all got our preference.

But of course, if they don't open up to me, I can't get to know them better, and we never really get "close". Helping each other through their issues builds your relationship, and makes them more grateful and loyal to you, as opposed to someone who's basically a fuck-buddy who can never love you as much as the other girl could. Alot more effort is required to make a relationship like that work, this is true, but the relationship you get in return can be pretty damn good. Unless your me, then they die a few days later and you spend a year or so sulking in depression before you meet another girl, who cheats on you, then you sink further into depression for another 3 years until you meet another girl, who dumps you for someone 13 years older than you, then you give up on women and join Kenji in his anti-feminist movement.

[Archimedes]

Justice is due consequence for all actions, period. No country on Earth has real justice, mostly because people can't stomach dealing out what's deserved. But that's an entirely different topic. You kinda failed to actually say anything with that though...

Its subjective what is justice and what is not.

In my opinion the situation, motive, relationship between victim and culprit, knowledge and cognitive ability all play a significant role, not just the action itself.

But, sure, you know definitely better then all these lawyers,voters, politicians and psychologists. And your sense of justice is universal and thus better then the justice in all of these country that think the same.

Well, is there any sense in discussing something absolute subjective? Sure, i could offer more facts about brain development etc and most people would disagree with you, but if you think otherwise, that's fine and there is most likely no way we would agree anyway, right?

And whoever said she never needed one anyway? It's entirely possible to need something and refuse to seek it out (or even acknowledge the need) out of stubbornness or spite

That is true, but she managed to do without him.

Spite is petty. Spite is childish. Spite is cruel. Guess who is completely capable of petty, childish cruelty? Humans in general, but especially children. A far better question would be how isn't it plausible, especially considering even the grown Shizune shows she is not above spite and grudges?

Yep, a child that exclude her father out of stubbornness and spite for the rest of her life - Seems absolute legit and plausible.

It's not like a child has the need to be loved and protected or to talk to someone, especially at a point where she can probably barely count from 20 backwards, or is dependent in general...