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My issues are likely entirely personal problems with how the story is going so far, but I'd still like to hear some discussion. (PLEASE spoiler if it's past Shizune act 2 or in another path)

OK. So I had this great idea in act 1 about Shizune and Hisao eventually learning to communicate through sign language. I thought about it during my first playthrough when Misha once mentioned how exhausted she was during class. Immediately afterward, Shizune bugs her to translate something to Hisao despite being able to write perfectly damn well. My genius idea is: during her path, Hisao will probably end up learning sign language from Shizune using her ability to write! I saw that sign language would probably be necessary as A) there is no Misha path and B) it wouldn't really work to have Misha translating as topics got deeper and more personal.

As I start my second playthrough, I'm so excited for the potential I see in romancing Shizune via Hisao. At this point I've looked up enough information about the mechanics of my choices to ensure I get the path I'm after. I'm even rewarded with a scene at The Shanghai where Hisao wonders about the meaning of a particular sign Shizune makes! It causes many a very manly giggle and squee to spew out of my mouth. Unfortunately, Hisao doesn't really pick up interest in signing until Act 2.

This is where it all goes to shit for me. Right off the bat, Shizune and Hisao are forced to communicate without Misha. They even use a pad of paper and pens to talk to each other! I also note that this is the first time we actually see exactly what Shizune is saying, as opposed to a translation. You can tell that Shizune's voice is different from the version of her we've heard through Misha.

Logically, Hisao sees reason to start learning sign language. However, apparently "The only person [he] can think to ask, at the moment, is Misha?" Use your brain Hisao. There is a gorgeous girl right in front of you who both knows sign language and loves challenges. Nope, he goes and asks Misha about sign language classes provided by the school. Afterwards, he asks Misha not to tell Shizune that he's learning sign language. /facepalm

Why the secrecy? Shizune is competitive, but that doesn't mean she expects you to know sign language perfectly or even terribly proficiently right from the get-go! And saving it up as a nice surprise? BULLSHIT. You may as well start using it every chance you get, which in turn would help Hisao learn more quickly. Speaking of, apparently Hisao has a gift for learning sign language remarkable quickly. Every time they mention this fact in the narrative, it just sounds forced. With all due respect to the author, I just get this feeling of "Welp, I'm writing a story in which my main character is interested in a deaf girl, but he doesn't know sign language. Better get that out of the way quickly!" The argument could be made that Hisao is exposed to a lot of sign language due to hanging out with Misha and Shizune all the time, but I don't see that affecting his rate of learning extensively. He isn't focused on their hands, trying instead to be polite by looking at the face of whomever he is speaking to.*

I will note that I found it quite rewarding to see Hisao slowly pick up snippets of what Shizune is saying as he learns.

Then, after Hisao did all his learning on his own, building up his ability in secret for (weeks/months?), training for a grand reveal in order to make Shizune swoon or be impressed or what have you, Misha just up and tells Shizune anyway?? What the fuck. What purpose does that serve in the narrative?

My last gripe (before moving on to another path) was just how Hisao's vocabulary seems random at times, missing a word here and there for the arbitrary reason of showing that he is not yet fluent. However, the reader doesn't have any grasp of what words would be more difficult to remember or less common in usage because Hisao (seemingly) wakes up one day knowing sign language almost fluently.

TL;DR: I got part way through Shizune Act 2, but was unhappy with how things went regarding Hisao learning sign language. Huge characterization opportunity missed for both Hisao and Shizune. (Also please remember those spoiler tags if it's beyond act 2 or in another path ^_^)

EDIT: for clarity in a few places
EDIT2: *As Kutagh pointed out, sign language (or at least ASL) happens primarily above waist-height, at or near the face, so that point is partially invalidated.

He isn't focused on their hands, trying instead to be polite by looking at the face of whomever he is speaking to.

Eye contact is quite important in sign language. However, as 99.9% of the signs take place in the space in front of the signer, above the waist and up to the head or slightly above, that means all signs should be in your field of view. Thus this exposes Hisao to more vocabulary, meaning that his reading skills improves a lot quicker. This allows Hisao more time to work on his signing skills rather than reading skills and thus his signing skills improves faster too.

As for why Shizune isn't teaching Hisao: If taught in a proper manner then it is certainly doable. That is how I learned sign language, a class of about 15 hearing people with 0 sign language knowledge and a Deaf teacher whom initially used both sign language and the computer but is now using almost exclusively sign language to teach us (half a year after starting).
However, Hisao already knows Shizune is the student council's president, already piled up a lot of work in there and Misha has to both interpret and study as well as help out Shizune with student council duties. So there isn't a lot of time left over to really teach sign language, while having sign language classes doesn't inconvenience either Shizune or Misha, gives Hisao enough exposure to sign language (one hour a week just isn't enough, take that from someone with experience, you definitely need around 5 hours a week). And as for both classes and having both Shizune and Misha teach him? That would be the ideal case, if only Shizune wouldn't try to push herself in order to teach him faster, which would propel Hisao ahead of the class, meaning that he learns less there.


And as for

thought about it during my first playthrough when Misha once mentioned how exhausted she was during class. Immediately afterward, Shizune bugs her to translate something to Hisao despite being able to write perfectly damn well.

Keep in mind that there is a difference between the different mediums of communication. Hearing people prefer to talk with their family over phone if convenient rather than texting/wapping. And in class when you're supposed to be quiet, at least in my experience, people try to whisper and not pass notes. It is the same for Shizune: Sign language is her way of talking/whispering, passing notes adds that layer that doesn't express emotion as well as your intonation of how you say things nor the body language as Shizune signs something.

And

I also note that this is the first time we actually see exactly what Shizune is saying, as opposed to a translation.

This is always so. Sign language rarely translates 100% correctly to spoken language or vice versa. If you watch Switched at Birth on ABC Family, I saw a couple scenes and though ASL is not the sign language I learned, I can understand here and there what is being signed exactly rather than the interpreted translation that they show you. That is because someone has to read the signs and associated body language, and try to find the best fitting translation, which is subjective, to convey the meaning.

And finally, Hisao missing words here and there that seems random: It is a limitation of the medium, to convey by text or sound what Hisao can read and what he doesn't understand.

paxslayer wrote: Logically, Hisao sees reason to start learning sign language. However, apparently "The only person [he] can think to ask, at the moment, is Misha?" Use your brain Hisao. There is a gorgeous girl right in front of you who both knows sign language and loves challenges.

I have no problem with him not going to Shizune for sign language lessons. In order to teach him, she'd have to make a sign, then right down what everything means. It's much less efficient than having somebody be able to tell him what a particular sign means and when he's getting something wrong.

Why the secrecy? Shizune is competitive, but that doesn't mean she expects you to know sign language perfectly or even terribly proficiently right from the get-go!

Not sure if this counts as a spoiler past Act 2 but just in case ... Shizune probably does expect him to either know it perfectly or not at all. She has a strong dislike of communicating through anything but sign, and the few instances where Hisao tries, she seems really irritated. Misha also mentions how much Shizune pushed her when she didn't know sign all that well.

And saving it up as a nice surprise? BULLSHIT.

This I can understand. With somebody as competitive as Shizune, one would take every chance they get to get one up on her. Him being able to pick out bits of conversation without her knowing it and then being able to surprise her with sign language counts as a "win" for him.

Speaking of, apparently Hisao has a gift for learning sign language remarkable quickly. Every time they mention this fact in the narrative, it just sounds forced. With all due respect to the author, I just get this feeling of "Welp, I'm writing a story in which my main character is interested in a deaf girl, but he doesn't know sign language. Better get that out of the way quickly!"

I'm with you on this one.

Then, after Hisao did all his learning on his own, building up his ability in secret for (weeks/months?), training for a grand reveal in order to make Shizune swoon or be impressed or what have you, Misha just up and tells Shizune anyway?? What the fuck. What purpose does that serve in the narrative?

That's just Misha being Misha. She's very loyal to Shizune for reasons you'll find out later.

My last gripe (before moving on to another path) was just how Hisao's vocabulary seems random at times, missing a word here and there for the arbitrary reason of showing that he is not yet fluent. However, the reader doesn't have any grasp of what words would be more difficult to remember or less common in usage because Hisao (seemingly) wakes up one day knowing sign language almost fluently.

No problem here. It's a common problem when learning a new language that you might not get all of every word in every sentence. The reasons can vary from not being exposed to the word before, to simply getting it confused with another one, or having problems remembering certain things. If anything, there should be more words that Hisao doesn't get.

TL;DR: I got part way through Shizune Act 2, but was unhappy with how things went regarding Hisao learning sign language. Huge characterization opportunity missed for both Hisao and Shizune. (Also please remember those spoiler tags if it's beyond act 2 or in another path ^_^)

I think Shizune had the worst path of the bunch. I'm really curious as to how you're going to react to some of the stuff later in her route though. Please post your thoughts once you get her path finished.

He wanted it to be a surprise. You can call it bullshit but that doesn't magically invalidate a valid motive.

It gets a lot worse.

Kutagh,

99.9% of the signs take place in the space in front of the signer, above the waist and up to the head or slightly above, that means all signs should be in your field of view.

You are absolutely right, I'm not sure why I forgot something like that about signing. Facial expressions are quite important as well, IIRC. Thanks for sharing your personal experience by the way; I've never taken a class in ASL. I'll consider my point there partially invalidated, though I still feel that this exposure can't account for the seemingly ridiculous rate at which Hisao learns.

there isn't a lot of time left over to really teach sign language, while having sign language classes doesn't inconvenience either Shizune or Misha

This is a good point, and another reason that I didn't love what I'd read in Shizune's path. They always seem to be working on something, and Hisao always seems grumpy or reluctant or something. While it makes sense for him to feel that way, it felt grating having to read that all the time (especially in act 1, jesus). However, isn't there some mention of a lot of downtime between one festival and the next? (I gave out a little after Hisao and Shizune remake a bunch of stalls out behind the school or somewhere.) Perhaps this downtime, unless I'm remembering wrongly, would be better used to have Hisao's knowledge of signing and his knowledge of Shizune growing in tandem?

That would be the ideal case, if only Shizune wouldn't try to push herself in order to teach him faster, which would propel Hisao ahead of the class, meaning that he learns less there.

This is some of what I was hoping to hear. I wasn't sure (in writing this) whether I knew Shizune well enough to make a judgement call about her theoretical reactions or motivations. It does seem likely that she would be impatient with a partial ability to learn, which could indeed invalidate his learning in class. However, I still feel that this is preferable to taking the class at all.

It is the same for Shizune: Sign language is her way of talking/whispering, passing notes adds that layer that doesn't express emotion as well as your intonation of how you say things nor the body language as Shizune signs something.

First, I'd like to just have a personal lol at Shizune's whispering coming out of Misha, who is characteristically loud when she speaks. Second, I will give you credit that Shizune could be more comfortable signing than writing, but I (when reading this) was shocked at exactly how inconsiderate Shizune is. Is writing really so bad that Shizune will only do it if left with no other option?

Anyway, thanks for reading through my rant and giving excellent responses. ^_^



Oddball,

In order to teach him, she'd have to make a sign, then right down what everything means

However, once the words are written, doesn't it sound so easy to simply point to one word, sign it, then point to another and sign that one? You wouldn't have to write between every interaction, since the words remain on the page/pad/screen/what have you. This still isn't terribly easy, but being difficult makes it more rewarding when you are finished. Taking longer would not be bad in this case, as it only gives Hisao and Shizune more time to get to know eachother. Really, Hisao doesn't know anything about Shizune other than her personality and school responsibilities!

Not sure if this counts as a spoiler past Act 2 but just in case ... Shizune probably does expect him to either know it perfectly or not at all. She has a strong dislike of communicating through anything but sign, and the few instances where Hisao tries, she seems really irritated. Misha also mentions how much Shizune pushed her when she didn't know sign all that well.

I think I recall reading what you mentioned about Misha somewhere. I was afraid to hear that Shizune might actually be that unreasonable, but hopefully there are others who share my view. It just... Shizune why can't you be more understanding and patient? Just a tiny bit?

This I can understand. With somebody as competitive as Shizune, one would take every chance they get to get one up on her. Him being able to pick out bits of conversation without her knowing it and then being able to surprise her with sign language counts as a "win" for him.

I see what you are saying, but personally it left a bad taste in my mouth having Shizune be at a disadvantage like that unfairly. One of the few ways I can relate to Shizune is through her competitiveness. I love to argue/debate with people, even though I don't see it in terms of winning and losing so much. Hisao, however, wanted to "take any advantage he can get" (<--- paraphrased) if I recall correctly. Just one more instance where I feel limited by Hisao's choices.

That's just Misha being Misha. She's very loyal to Shizune for reasons you'll find out later.

At this point, I'd like to admit that I know Misha has feelings for Shizune, but I have only myself to blame for spoiling that part of the story. From a narrative point of view, while I see "Misha being Misha" as a small validation for this turn of events, it seems to drive the pointlessness of the secret even farther into the ground. When reading it, it actually felt like a slap in the face.

I'm really curious as to how you're going to react to some of the stuff later in her route though. Please post your thoughts once you get her path finished.

I'm glad you enjoyed reading my thoughts. I don't know if I'll be finishing Shizune's path any time soon, but I have been considering ranting about Rin's path. Thanks for reading and replying. ^_^

Xanatos wrote:He wanted it to be a surprise. You can call it bullshit but that doesn't magically invalidate a valid motive.

I'm calling the motive bullshit, I'm not trying to call him on bullshit. I'm saying that Hisao is stupid for thinking that the surprise is worth the secrecy.

Dr. Robotnik wrote:It gets a lot worse.

More motivation to do Emi and Hanako before revisiting this path.

Oddball wrote: That's just Misha being Misha.

That's just Misha desperately clinging to the shreds of a shattered dream because she's fucked up emotionally, aka their relationship.

Also, OP, do you like Shizune as a character? If you do, then you'd probably like this route.

Dr. Robotnik wrote:Also, OP, do you like Shizune as a character? If you do, then you'd probably like this route.

I want to like her! I thought she would be an amazing girl to get to know. However, I think she's written a tad bit too extreme for me. She comes off as more than driven. For instance, if driven is admirable, then being overly driven is no longer admirable.

Also she and Misha just play so many games and tricks with Hisao in Act 1. You could probably argue, looking at each action individually, that everything they do in Act 1 with/to Hisao is aimed at getting him to join Student Council. It doesnt help that Hisao never really says "Student Council sounds interesting to me, as a character," rather saying "OMG these girls are relentless I better just join to get them off my back oh wait they are still on my back and are using my 'joining' as leverage to make me do stuff for them /sigh."

While that's an unfair exaggeration, I think it accurately shows how I felt while reading. Why can't Hisao join SC because he's legitimately interested?

From what I've noticed, people's opinions about Shizune's path are usually the extreme of their opinions about Shizune as a character, so if you really don't like her I'd save it for last.

paxslayer wrote:

Xanatos wrote:He wanted it to be a surprise. You can call it bullshit but that doesn't magically invalidate a valid motive.

I'm calling the motive bullshit, I'm not trying to call him on bullshit. I'm saying that Hisao is stupid for thinking that the surprise is worth the secrecy.

And yet, it's still a completely valid motive. Maybe you don't like surprises but Hisao is not you.

Dr. Robotnik wrote:From what I've noticed, people's opinions about Shizune's path are usually the extreme of their opinions about Shizune as a character, so if you really don't like her I'd save it for last.

Thanks for your advice, I probably will end up finishing Shizune last.

Xanatos wrote:And yet, it's still a completely valid motive. Maybe you don't like surprises but Hisao is not you.

Then I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

Xanatos wrote:Maybe you don't like surprises but Hisao is not you.

Isn't the entire point of Hisao for you to insert yourself into his situation?

Dr. Robotnik wrote:

Xanatos wrote:Maybe you don't like surprises but Hisao is not you.

Isn't the entire point of Hisao for you to insert yourself into his situation?

Hisao definitely has his own personality. I decided to actually download and play KS because of a metadating episode on this game. I didn't really enjoy watching them play, but at the end they give very insightful comments about the game.

Point being, one of the first choices you make gives you the option of asking about Shizune's deafness. When you choose this, however, Hisao seems to ignore you as the player and doesn't end up asking anything at all. In the episode, they point out that the game is teaching you that you can't play the game as yourself. You have to play as Hisao.

EDIT: This is getting slightly off topic though, I'd still love to hear comments relating to the sign language stuff in Act 2.

By the way, you would perhaps like ProfAllister's "For Want of a Nail" which is both a Misha route fanfic (extremely well written and I occasionally help out with some sign language/deaf culture aspects) as well as having a Shizune that I think appeals more to you.

In any case, you're now quiting halfway through her story. And if you would care to continue playing, there is more to Shizune than what you grasped so far. Shizune's path also requires quite a bit of reading between the lines, and is best enjoyed with a bit of knowledge about the Deaf world.