Katawa Shoujo Forums

So I was going for 100% completion. I am still recovering from Hanako's GOOD ending.
But when I played the bad ending. I wish I saw the expression on my face, it must have been ridiculous. This exact scenario happened a few years ago to me. I was Hanako and his guy who isn't my friend anymore was Hisao. I needed space, I went to my room and didn't leave it for awhile. After a day of not leaving my house my friend came to my house and my stupid parents let him into my room. Then the exact scene happened, he kept asking me if I wanted to go outside, I just wanted to be alone. Then after he would not stop trying to get me outside I flipped out and said the EXACT same things.
I still look back at that and wishing he just left me alone, I was sick of the entire world treating me like I was a helpless mental kid. Why couldn't I go one day without someone thinking they need to watch over me. I still can't stand it even today, I can't remember the last time I had any space to myself.

I'm doing a VERY bad job at describing this. I feel like I could do a better job at explaining how it went. Anyway thought I'd share this and hear people's opinions.

I bet Rin would give you space.

the only way to be rid of that is to prove you don't need the help of others.

how you do that is up to you, but that's the only real way

yummines wrote:the only way to be rid of that is to prove you don't need the help of others.

how you do that is up to you, but that's the only real way

He's right.

I never had that sort of outburst (externally anyway) but I've had to put up with that same nonsense. Autism sucks.

yummines wrote:the only way to be rid of that is to prove you don't need the help of others.

how you do that is up to you, but that's the only real way

That that the SAY. But you can prove yourself all you want but for all public schools care you are just something that gets in the way of other students.

The bad thing about your outburst is that now your parents and your friend will probably treat you differently, in a way you will probably hate. I can't say for sure since I don't know a lot of things, but that is what I think will happen.

After Hanako's route, I understood the difference between caring and pitying: when you care about someone, you take into account his preferences and his needs, while when you pity someone, you just do what you think is best for him, but in reality, you do what is best for you to feel ok. That is something I have been throught for awhile, and it sucks. Fortunately, it was only one person who treated me like that. Unfortunately, it was my best friend.

If I could go back to when we were best friends with her knowing what I know today, I would confront her asking her directly if she was pitying me and hid things from me because she didn't want to hurt me. Instead of going throught the shit I did, it would give me an answer immediately. However, I am bold enough to confront other people that way, not you. I don;t know if you could do the same.

Well, other things I would do to avoid being pitied would be to not let people get really close to me except if the tried repeatedly, which would show real interest, and giving off the image that i am capable of taking care of myself.

Sometimes your dear people try to interfere with stuff you don't want them to do, because in the end you know better than they do. I just let them outside. I don't give details about the aforementioned stuff, i just show that I am ok soo there is no need for worry. And if they still insist to interfere, I make it clear that I am the one who has to go throught that stuff, otherwise there is no point in doing it. Just like Hanako had to get out of her room without anyone's help.

Sorry for the rambling, hope you made something out of my response!

Well, in her bad ending, she's doing something that she does yearly, and that is shutting out everyone that seems to matter to her, including the guy she's mutually crushing on. Hisao in the neutral ending handles it a lot better, but so does Hanako in that one.

The issue there is that her behavior is something to worry about. It's not the norm, it's unusual, it's frightening for the people that care about her. It makes people think that leaving her alone is going to be a very terrible idea.

I realize it's stressful to be treated that way, but for an someone else looking in, it's a very worrying sign. The type of sign that makes someone think "oh, hell, am I going to knock on the door one day and find a corpse where my friend used to be?"

It's even easier to understand Hisao's reluctance to leave, because Hanako is barely saying a word to him. She won't come out and just say "I appreciate the kindness, but I'm not going to hurt myself or anything. I just need some time alone for a few days, okay? Let me be, please."

There's a difference between communicating that you want alone time and shutting yourself in your room, not coming out for food, and not saying two words to the people you've been hanging out with every single day for weeks, if not months. One makes people think "I hope they feel better soon." The other? Well, look two paragraphs above...

If the circumstances in your life were similar, your friend probably assumed it was better to risk your friendship than to risk your life.

I don't know if that helps, but that's my take on the situation. I realize that Hisao's pressuring Hanako was overdone in that scene, but I always thought her outburst was too heavy-handed, as well. And maybe it works better that way - she was stressed, she wanted him to leave, he didn't, she felt threatened. Fair enough, it's understandable. We don't see the future, but I always imagined they'd reconcile, if not fully. With Lilly returning and being a mediator, they could've apologized to each other, but probably gotten over it. Mostly. Wouldn't be surprised if they were somewhat farther apart after that, but that's something time could overcome, eventually.
But if she stood by her angry words, and cut her friendship with Hisao forever? Well, that wouldn't be so understandable - she put up so many huge warning signs and refused to talk to anybody so much that there's no wonder people were worried about her. It's horribly alarming behavior. The fact that Hisao acted tactlessly in the bad ending doesn't change that. Suicide or self-harm are real things, and people will worry about that if you give them a reason to.

I honestly can't say whether it makes the same amount of sense in your real life scenario, since I don't know what it was like, but I have to play devil's advocate here. If your behavior underwent a strong change, if you refused to communicate with the people close to you ... people take those as warning signs. And it may make them act.

After Hanako's route, I understood the difference between caring and pitying: when you care about someone, you take into account his preferences and his needs, while when you pity someone, you just do what you think is best for him, but in reality, you do what is best for you to feel ok. That is something I have been throught for awhile, and it sucks. Fortunately, it was only one person who treated me like that. Unfortunately, it was my best friend.

If I could go back to when we were best friends with her knowing what I know today, I would confront her asking her directly if she was pitying me and hid things from me because she didn't want to hurt me. Instead of going throught the shit I did, it would give me an answer immediately. However, I am bold enough to confront other people that way, not you. I don;t know if you could do the same.

I still have trouble trying to tell the difference, really - but maybe that's because I can't make sense of "doing what is best for you to feel okay" in that situation. When I'd had friends who were in a bad emotional state, I went and did what seemed best for them, not what was best for me. There were things about the arrangements that I didn't like, but it wasn't about me. It seemed to help them, too. At the time.

I also have a very bad time with lying or concealing important facts. I do do it, at times, but usually, I say what seems to need to be said. Conversely, I don't say things that don't need to be - I'm rarely someone to be outright insulting, even to someone that has managed to earn my hatred, because what in the hell is that going to accomplish? I call people out on what they've done - major events they had a clear choice in - not random, insignificant flaws of their personality or body or whatever.

Maybe my issue there is that I'm not really capable of thinking "well, even if they don't like it, it's probably best for them". I don't think that outright antagonizing somebody is going to help anything. If they're reluctant to do something, find another way to persuade them to do it, or find an alternative - don't try to force them. I dunno.

Nyzer wrote:Well, in her bad ending, she's doing something that she does yearly, and that is shutting out everyone that seems to matter to her, including the guy she's mutually crushing on. Hisao in the neutral ending handles it a lot better, but so does Hanako in that one.

The issue there is that her behavior is something to worry about. It's not the norm, it's unusual, it's frightening for the people that care about her. It makes people think that leaving her alone is going to be a very terrible idea.

I realize it's stressful to be treated that way, but for an someone else looking in, it's a very worrying sign. The type of sign that makes someone think "oh, hell, am I going to knock on the door one day and find a corpse where my friend used to be?"

It's even easier to understand Hisao's reluctance to leave, because Hanako is barely saying a word to him. She won't come out and just say "I appreciate the kindness, but I'm not going to hurt myself or anything. I just need some time alone for a few days, okay? Let me be, please."

There's a difference between communicating that you want alone time and shutting yourself in your room, not coming out for food, and not saying two words to the people you've been hanging out with every single day for weeks, if not months. One makes people think "I hope they feel better soon." The other? Well, look two paragraphs above...

If the circumstances in your life were similar, your friend probably assumed it was better to risk your friendship than to risk your life.

It can't help but notice something you are completely missing. Doing exactly that, causes the bad ending.
Also notice that if he decides to give her space you get the good ending. Don't you think there is a REASON maybe I just needed my space? Also my parents were home and with them it's hard to breathe without those two noticing.
When people say "Please leave." they mean: "GET THE FUCK OUT NOW!"

I can't help but notice something you are completely missing. Doing exactly that, causes the bad ending.

Oh, no, I haven't forgotten. Hisao's being a thick-headed idiot and isn't listening to what she's saying. What I'm saying isn't that he acted correctly, I'm saying that his worry was justified. It wasn't strictly necessary, but it was certainly justified.

Also notice that if he decides to give her space you get the good ending.

That's only because she panicked. She thought that he was drifting away from her, so she decided to try and seduce him, basically.

Don't you think there is a REASON maybe I just needed my space?

Some months back, I shut down most of my online accounts. That or I pruned my friend lists down to almost nothing. Even now I don't go visit family members. I'd say I don't visit friends, either, but the truth is that I don't have any RL friends at this point in time any longer.
But I passed along why I was doing it - essentially, I needed space. Most strongly, I needed to stop having the urge to send messages ranting about how depressed and destructive I was: it wasn't helping, and was in fact making the situation worse. While my responses were always fairly calm and understanding, it wasn't about the responses I was getting. It was about the emotions I kept making worse as I typed. As it's my nature to overexplain everything, I'm pretty sure I basically sent out an essay on this. My reply to the reply was probably also an essay.
Anyway, the point to that there is, yes, I know what it is to need space. But at the same time, I made sure that I wasn't going to suddenly withdraw from the people that did matter - that they'd at least know why and what I was doing. And I haven't avoided communication when I've been called, emailed, or otherwise messaged.

But for someone who doesn't have any experience with a friend suddenly withdrawing in every sense of the word, they are going to be worried by it. Panicked, even. And the odds are that they'll do entirely the wrong thing, because they're trying to do what they think is the right thing.

What Hisao did in Hanako's bad ending wasn't the right thing. It wasn't the smartest thing (her neutral ending is much better for that, and the good ending is the best, but that's only because he had Lilly's advice). But... it was, if nothing else, understandable. At least to me. He was worried about someone close to him going through a major change in behavior, he was worried she would end up harming herself.

When people say "Please leave." they mean: "GET THE FUCK OUT NOW!"

It... may not be the most realistic thing, but doesn't a lot of media portray such scenarios as a time for you to not be passive about it? Not sure I can word that properly... eh, it goes something like "come on, let's do X" "no" "come on" "RAGH" *finally shows bottled-up emotion for a while before blurting out everything that's wrong and turning to friend for support and comfort?*
The idea that the Power Of Friendship heals all, or whatever.

It doesn't actually work that way, but, again, for someone completely out of his depth in a situation like that, it may be what they think is the right thing to do.



I see the whole interaction between the two of them in the bad ending as misunderstandings that just get worse and worse. She withdraws from him because she needs space, but she doesn't communicate that well enough and instead makes him worry what she's going to do. He tries to get her to stop shutting him out out of worry, but does it completely the wrong way, ignores what she wants, and instead, infuriates her. She flips out on him with a ton of bottled-up emotion, but he walks away from that almost with the resolve to stay away from her for good rather than realizing it's mostly her stress talking... (or at least, that's my interpretation of it. It's ... eh, it's difficult to take it completely seriously when she says she hates Lilly.)

Well, one reason why someone might ignore repeated cries of 'leave me alone' is because no one wants to be that guy that left his friend alone in a vulnerable moment and some bad shit went down. If Hanako had committed suicide, Hisao might as well have done the same because you can bet your bottom dollar that every mother fucker in that school would pin the blame on him.

It's kinda difficult to judge objectively. I can definitely get the fact Hanako's behavior is very worrying. On the other hand, as Lilly points out, this kind of thing happened before and Hanako eventually wrestled herself out of her depression too.

I'm kinda glad that the bad ending has created this kind of discussion. I'm saying that I agree with anyone here, but it's good that people are paying attention to things.


To be honest, both Hanako and Hisao are in the wrong in the Bad End. As most of you have noted, Hisao's heavy-handedness of the situation and his amazing ability to jump to conclusions are the catalsysts to the Bad Ending.

But Hanako is also in the wrong; she has shut herself down so hard that she is causing undue stress in the relationships.

What I was trying to achieve (and what Suriko perfected) was the fact that you need to open yourself up to people. Not many people are good at this at all.

I suppose what I would like people to take away from the Bad End is this: try to see the world from other people's point of view. I used to get very rage-y at times, and although the Bad End is about 90% fiction, there is about 10% of it that was drawn from personal experience.

This is something that I'm going to cover a bit in this week's post on my blog, so I won't repeat myself too much (it will be called "Two rights make a wrong," for those that are keeping score). However, the best advice I can give anyone is to take 10 deep breaths and try to see any situation from another person's point of view.

And it's not just arguments; business deals, conversations, heck, I even do it when I'm nursing my baby to sleep. Remember that no single person on this planet will ever be able to understand everything that you are thinking, and try to fill in the blanks for them (whilst, of course, trying to fill in your own blanks about them).



No-one can survive in this world alone. Sure, you might not need to tweet every meal that you are eating, or go shopping with friends to feel validated, but if you don't interact wit hteh rest of the species then you cannot call yourself "human".



Discuss.

cpl_crud

I always wanted to ask (but haven't in the ASK! thread)

was Hanako based on someone or a combination of some real people from your life? (not the scarring but the personality and such)

txalolrn9 wrote:cpl_crud

I always wanted to ask (but haven't in the ASK! thread)

was Hanako based on someone or a combination of some real people from your life? (not the scarring but the personality and such)

Actually, not really.

At the time I tried to make her similar to a few people I knew, but nothing really fit all that well.

So I made her in my head, put on my Hisao glasses, and watched her life happen before my mind's eye.

A couple of things from real life made it through; the Tile Game for example.


Earlier versions of Hanako were basically clones of myself combined with characters and people that I "loved," but that turned out so poorly that the entire path was scrapped.

A little question for you, Crud. I'm not saying tell me what you believe would be canon in your mind and such, but just kind of answer based on what you think would happen.

Let's say that after high school, per usual, a relationship between Hanako and most of her friends ends simply because of moving on in life. As she extends further into her future and ages, do you think she would honestly change much? I mean, there are people who after their final years of schooling who change drastically and ones who don't change at all. Do you think she'd be one of those people who, while keeping old habits such as stuttering, would change a bit in terms of personality? Such as being a bit more open, while not completely open, or do you think she'd sort of continue to be that shut in?

Just a question on your personal opinion, you don't have to answer if you don't want to.