We never see Shizune use sign language

[inquisitivenegro]

I mean look at all the other act 2 character animations-we see Emi run, Hanako read, Lily drink and make tea, and Rin paint.
The first thing I'll animate when I buy a tablet lol

BELOW: from rtilrtil's awesome insta-feel series. Go watch it if you haven't!
I think Shizune is using ASL here, unless the sign for "dad" is universal..?

[metalangel]

Yes, I think rtilrtil said they used ASL and that is the sign for father.

Good luck to you, it won't be easy to animate.

[Kutagh]

It's a multitude of reasons, I think. First is obviously the animation, as Sign Language isn't easy to properly animate. Secondly is that it doesn't add a huge lot since the majority of the readers won't be able to read Sign Language. Thirdly, which Sign Language should Shizune use? It is in a Japanese setting so you'd expect her to use JSL and not ASL, but all conversations are in written English...

Plus Sign Language isn't universal and while there might be signs that are relatively comparable across a multitude of Sign Languages all Sign Languages have their own roots, just like all spoke languages have. Dutch Sign Language and ASL for example are families of French Sign Language and thus relatively comparable (though not quite the same), just like Spanish, French and Italian are families of Latin and like Dutch and German are families of the ancient German language: There are similarities between the languages but a native speaker of the one isn't remotely fluent in the others (though it is easier for them to learn it since the languages are slightly similiar).

[inquisitivenegro]

It's a multitude of reasons, I think. First is obviously the animation, as Sign Language isn't easy to properly animate. Secondly is that it doesn't add a huge lot since the majority of the readers won't be able to read Sign Language. Thirdly, which Sign Language should Shizune use? It is in a Japanese setting so you'd expect her to use JSL and not ASL, but all conversations are in written English...

Plus Sign Language isn't universal and while there might be signs that are relatively comparable across a multitude of Sign Languages all Sign Languages have their own roots, just like all spoke languages have. Dutch Sign Language and ASL for example are families of French Sign Language and thus relatively comparable (though not quite the same), just like Spanish, French and Italian are families of Latin and like Dutch and German are families of the ancient German language: There are similarities between the languages but a native speaker of the one isn't remotely fluent in the others (though it is easier for them to learn it since the languages are slightly similiar).

>.>

[metalangel]

all conversations are in written English...

That's out of necessity for the reader being able to play the game without needing to learn Japanese first. In the fiction of the story Shizune uses JSL, but I suppose it would stand to reason that you'd need to localize her signs into whatever written language you're playing the game in. LSF if you were playing in French, for example.

HOWEVER! The story also simulates the fact the Hisao at first doesn't understand any of it and learns, and if you were to see what Shizune was signing from the beginning and knew sign then you'd be in on it before Hisao was. This would only take away from the story slightly, though, as we see when Hisao has learned sign, and we (the reader) see that Misha does interpret accurately.

>.>

Did we ever find out what he was trying to say in that scene?

[Kutagh]

all conversations are in written English...

That's out of necessity for the reader being able to play the game without needing to learn Japanese first. In the fiction of the story Shizune uses JSL, but I suppose it would stand to reason that you'd need to localize her signs into whatever written language you're playing the game in. LSF if you were playing in French, for example.

HOWEVER! The story also simulates the fact the Hisao at first doesn't understand any of it and learns, and if you were to see what Shizune was signing from the beginning and knew sign then you'd be in on it before Hisao was. This would only take away from the story slightly, though, as we see when Hisao has learned sign, and we (the reader) see that Misha does interpret accurately.

Hmmmm. I'd also refer to the food stalls and such on the school festival, for example the one where Lily works. The signs there are all written in Japanese. It'd make sense to me to let Shizune use JSL, if at all.
Plus how are you gonna localize the signs when they're animated and not written? For text it is relatively easy to implement a localization system code-wise but for animation not so much since you need the correct animation files for that.
I agree that the way it has been done right now is IMO the best, reflecting the point of view for Hisao the best: Abstract away the actual signing and make the reader depend on Misha for the interpretation until Hisao can interpret it for himself.

Regarding the cutscenes: Do you see Lily reading a braille book? Do you see Emi using the different prosthetics for walking/running? No, you see a normal person trying to enjoy an activity despite their disabilities and for Shizune it is not so much the contact with others (except for Misha and Hisao and you see Shizune writing on paper to Hisao to keep that sense of intimacy on the rooftop) as it is about being a workaholic and such.

[metalangel]

Hmmmm. I'd also refer to the food stalls and such on the school festival, for example the one where Lily works. The signs there are all written in Japanese. It'd make sense to me to let Shizune use JSL, if at all.
Plus how are you gonna localize the signs when they're animated and not written? For text it is relatively easy to implement a localization system code-wise but for animation not so much since you need the correct animation files for that.

Given how much the Sign For Me app costs on iPhone (and has a 3D avatar who knows ASL), quite a lot. This might be why we didn't see it! It would be the biggest barrier to doing an anime adaption too! Hey!

Regarding the cutscenes: Do you see Lily reading a braille book? Do you see Emi using the different prosthetics for walking/running? No, you see a normal person trying to enjoy an activity despite their disabilities and for Shizune it is not so much the contact with others (except for Misha and Hisao and you see Shizune writing on paper to Hisao to keep that sense of intimacy on the rooftop) as it is about being a workaholic and such.

You do see Emi with both her blades and prosthetic legs on in her scene, but nevertheless that is the point. I thought the note passing scene was really lovely as it showed them spending time together alone having solved any difficulty communicating (not to mention the fun of writing something naughty and seeing their reaction when they open the paper).

(besides, where would you draw the line? ZOMG HANAKOS CUTSCENE DOESN'T SHOW HER ON FIRE)

[inquisitivenegro]

all conversations are in written English...

That's out of necessity for the reader being able to play the game without needing to learn Japanese first. In the fiction of the story Shizune uses JSL, but I suppose it would stand to reason that you'd need to localize her signs into whatever written language you're playing the game in. LSF if you were playing in French, for example.

HOWEVER! The story also simulates the fact the Hisao at first doesn't understand any of it and learns, and if you were to see what Shizune was signing from the beginning and knew sign then you'd be in on it before Hisao was. This would only take away from the story slightly, though, as we see when Hisao has learned sign, and we (the reader) see that Misha does interpret accurately.

>.>

Did we ever find out what he was trying to say in that scene?

I don't know sign language so no idea, I only know "father" because someone told me its kind like the feathers on an Indian warchielf's head

[ravenlord]

The key is each girl's handicap is how they deal with it. Emi runs with prosethics, Hanako hides with books, Lilly sees with her fingers, Rin paints with her feet. The cut scenes all allude to that.

Shizune's handicap is communication, but her sigining doesn't help with that. He lack of communication isn't because of a lack of voice and hearing, it is because of a lack of empathy and understanding. She uses her eyes and she uses paper during her cg, but the point is that she deals with her "handicap" by simply her being her, and only doing what she knows how to do best. What we see in the CG is Misha and Hasio being the ones to make the attempt to close the gap with her, and not the other way around, because that's just the way Shizune is. The consequences of that limitation is what constitutes the climax of act 4.

[metalangel]

The key is each girl's handicap is how they deal with it. Emi runs with prosethics, Hanako hides with books, Lilly sees with her fingers, Rin paints with her feet. The cut scenes all allude to that.

Shizune's handicap is communication, but her sigining doesn't help with that. He lack of communication isn't because of a lack of voice and hearing, it is because of a lack of empathy and understanding. She uses her eyes and she uses paper during her cg, but the point is that she deals with her "handicap" by simply her being her, and only doing what she knows how to do best. What we see in the CG is Misha and Hasio being the ones to make the attempt to close the gap with her, and not the other way around, because that's just the way Shizune is. The consequences of that limitation is what constitutes the climax of act 4.

How else can Shizune deal with her handicap apart from writing notes and using an interpreter?

[ravenlord]

The key is each girl's handicap is how they deal with it. Emi runs with prosethics, Hanako hides with books, Lilly sees with her fingers, Rin paints with her feet. The cut scenes all allude to that.

Shizune's handicap is communication, but her sigining doesn't help with that. He lack of communication isn't because of a lack of voice and hearing, it is because of a lack of empathy and understanding. She uses her eyes and she uses paper during her cg, but the point is that she deals with her "handicap" by simply her being her, and only doing what she knows how to do best. What we see in the CG is Misha and Hasio being the ones to make the attempt to close the gap with her, and not the other way around, because that's just the way Shizune is. The consequences of that limitation is what constitutes the climax of act 4.

How else can Shizune deal with her handicap apart from writing notes and using an interpreter?

Don't make me add you to my ignore list . . .

[Oddball]

Hisao and Misha, they learn a new language to be able to talk to her.

Shizune on the other hand doesn't even like to write things down because she considers it inefficient. She doesn't really check her messages either.

Now Hisao and Misha already know how to write when they meet her, so you'd think that writing things down would be easier, but Shizune doesn't like doing things that way so they have to go with the option that SHE wants.

She seems incapable of even trying to meet them halfway. Maybe I'm remember it wrong, but I can't recall her being extremely happy and grateful for either of them to go through that hassle in order to talk to her. She might be happy that it's more efficient, but she doesn't seem grateful that they'd go through the trouble for her.


Here's something I was just thinking about. Let's look at Jigoro. Now most people reaction to finding out he was hiring tutors to try to get hi daughter to speak is that he's just an asshole. Can't he understand that shes a mute? But the thing is, it shows that she CAN make noises with her throat. If she can do that, and the tutors were trying to teach her to lip read, she may be able to do something that at least resembles speech.

But she doesn't.

In a way it's a direct parallel to what Hisao and Misha go through. They've got teachers and tutors to help them learn a new way to communicate with her. She has teachers and tutors that are trying to get her to communicate with others, but she either can't or she won't.

If she won't, you have to wonder why. Is she embarrassed by the sound of her voice? It would fit the character. That would mean she values her own pride more than the ability to communicate with others. Better that they go through hardships to learn how to talk with her than having her embarrass herself by speaking poorly.

But what if she just can't? Maybe she tried to learn to lip read and talk and just utterly failed at it. Hisao was naturally good a sign language, what if she's just naturally bad at lip reading? This could actually go a long way towards explaining why she's always trying so hard to prove herself. She already failed horribly once and wants to prove that she's NOT a failure.

[WorldlyWiseman]

How else can Shizune deal with her handicap apart from writing notes and using an interpreter?

Don't make me add you to my ignore list . . .

In a way it's a direct parallel to what Hisao and Misha go through. They've got teachers and tutors to help them learn a new way to communicate with her. She has teachers and tutors that are trying to get her to communicate with others, but she either can't or she won't.

I would call Jigoro getting all of those speech therapists an attempt to throw money at the problem while making no investment himself. Making Shizune learn to speak through her mouth is like forcing Hanako to wear a mask everywhere. Besides, it's not really clear from the game whether she can make noises with her voicebox, or if she can only make soft noises by forcing air through her mouth. She already can't hear herself to judge speaking accuracy, good luck to her if she has to whisper to everyone.

While I'm at it, I'm pretty sure that Shizune and Misha first bonded over sign language, and that Shizune told Misha that Hisao learning to sign made him 'an interesting person', which seems appreciative to me (a little). I'm sure if you asked her about it, she'd answer something like, " [The act of communicating is something to be appreciated in and of itself. Especially if I'm involved!] *adjusting glasses stance* "

[WorldlyWiseman]

As for why we don't see it in-game, well, obviously there are problems with making that many sprites, I'm sure everyone's thought of that. I did try and figure out if there could be something like the simplified mouth movements for different sounds that cartoonists use, but applied to sign language.

A comedic comic could just have Shizune's hands moving in a blur in front of her, with the words coming out like an onomatopoeia, and a more serious one could have mini-panels at the bottom that show two or three of the movements with her dialogue superimposed over the top. I can't think of a simple way to do it for something fully animated, though. The few movements we see in the act 2 animation probably took ages to do. I guess the studio could cheat and just record a live actor or 3d character run by an algorithm making the signs and then cel-shade it like crazy, but that would come out looking like A Scanner Darkly...


(starts thinking about KS + A Scanner Darkly)

[metalangel]

How else can Shizune deal with her handicap apart from writing notes and using an interpreter?

Don't make me add you to my ignore list . . .

If that is your response to a genuine question, go right ahead.