Katawa Shoujo Forums

Lilly is a Mary Sue.

Guest wrote:Lilly is a Mary Sue.

Nope. Mary Sue is a character that does nothing wrong. Lilly, though not much, does stuff like not telling Hisao about leaving for Scotland until he hears it from Akira and mothering Hanako a bit too much. Mary Sues don't make mistakes, simply put.
True, the Lilly arc is rather a "cliched" text-book romance, but it's done very well. I don't understand why people hate her just because she's a blue-eyed blonde or because her story arc is "cliched". There's more to her than that.

Aww... Fellow, that's the find of enthusiasm that makes a guy feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I'm looking forwards to seeing your reaction to the other girls routes.

Lilly isn't my absolute favorite, but she's a strong second place.

Lilly is a Mary Sue.

Lilly is an over protective, caffine addicted, nymphomaniac with a possible alcohol problem and issues with letting other people know when she needs help. She does have her flaws, she's just got them more under control than most of the other characters.

Guest wrote:Lilly is a Mary Sue.

And to round out the argument against your horribly fallacious assertion here, a Mary Sue is an author avatar. The whole point of the trope is that Mary Sues are written by bad fanfic authors as exaggeratedly perfect versions of themselves. The author's unbridled and unashamed fantasies that bleed through into his/her work are what define a Mary Sue. Thus, claiming Lilly is a "Mary Sue" is tantamount to saying "Lilly's route is just an exploration of Suriko's desire to be a calm, reliable, attractive, blind schoolgirl in Japan." Which is absolutely silly.
Well, actually, I don't know Suriko, so maybe he does fantasize about that. Who knows!

Even if Lilly was perfect (she's not), she still wouldn't be a "Mary Sue". It's just an improper use of the term.

To the OP: how do you feel about the fact that Lilly received the request to live in Scotland permanently before she went on vacation with Hanako and Hisao, and therefore pretty much based her entire relationship with Hisao on a lie (or at least the withholding of truth)? For example, when Lilly cries to Hisao and says "Don't go away, I beg of you. Never, ever go away. I love you, so please...!", she already knows that she is going to leave him. You seem to have a lot of positive things to say about Lilly, so I'm wondering what you think about her more negative qualities.

Mirrormn wrote:

Guest wrote:Lilly is a Mary Sue.

And to round out the argument against your horribly fallacious assertion here, a Mary Sue is an author avatar. The whole point of the trope is that Mary Sues are written by bad fanfic authors as exaggeratedly perfect versions of themselves. The author's unbridled and unashamed fantasies that bleed through into his/her work are what define a Mary Sue. Thus, claiming Lilly is a "Mary Sue" is tantamount to saying "Lilly's route is just an exploration of Suriko's desire to be a calm, reliable, attractive, blind schoolgirl in Japan." Which is absolutely silly.
Well, actually, I don't know Suriko, so maybe he does fantasize about that. Who knows!

Even if Lilly was perfect (she's not), she still wouldn't be a "Mary Sue". It's just an improper use of the term.

Nah, Mary Sue by current usage doesn't have to be an author avatar.

tv|tropes wrote:Simple as that. The original meaning, this one has lost prominence as a sole definition lately but still often gets invoked. People used to sometimes call their alter ego characters "their Mary Sue", but this usage has mostly died with the proliferation of the term as an automatic pejorative.

But Lilly is not a Mary Sue, simply because she has character flaws. A defining charactersitic of a Mary Sue is that she has no flaws.

acewing905 wrote: Nah, Mary Sue by current usage doesn't have to be an author avatar.

tv|tropes wrote:Simple as that. The original meaning, this one has lost prominence as a sole definition lately but still often gets invoked. People used to sometimes call their alter ego characters "their Mary Sue", but this usage has mostly died with the proliferation of the term as an automatic pejorative.

But Lilly is not a Mary Sue, simply because she has character flaws. A defining charactersitic of a Mary Sue is that she has no flaws.

I don't think your interpretation of the term is any more legitimate than my own; probably less so, since mine is more in line with its historical usage. Anyway, it doesn't matter what interpretation you use. The term is not a correct characterization of Lilly either way.

I'm really not a big fan of using "Mary Sue" in any context, since it's so poorly defined that it's almost always better to use more descriptive and precise language instead. As TvTropes says:

tv|tropes wrote:Using the term in most contexts isn't too far off from Flame Bait, generally provoking the defendant into rants.

Mirrormn wrote:
I don't think your interpretation of the term is any more legitimate than my own; probably less so, since mine is more in line with its historical usage. Anyway, it doesn't matter what interpretation you use. The term is not a correct characterization of Lilly either way.

Guess you're right about that.

tv|tropes wrote:What that character type is, exactly, differs wildly from circle to circle, and often from person to person.

What do you expect, her route is canon after all.

Titus wrote:What do you expect, her route is canon after all.

Is this some kinda inside joke? Cause AFAIK, there's no "canon" KS storyline.

acewing905 wrote:

Titus wrote:What do you expect, her route is canon after all.

Is this some kinda inside joke? Cause AFAIK, there's no "canon" KS storyline.

Well, it's as canon as the all of the "good" endings are in Heavy Rain, if that's any measure.

acewing905 wrote:

Titus wrote:What do you expect, her route is canon after all.

Is this some kinda inside joke? Cause AFAIK, there's no "canon" KS storyline.

Yea it is People at one time liked to joke about Lilly being the canon character since Shizune and Lilly patch their relationship up a bit, and Hanako grows and becomes more comfortable around others. Plus she's a classy, motherly, kind, and strong woman with an extremely healthy adolescent sex drive, there are men that would kill for a woman like that. It really is too good to be true. Also she was voted somewhere as being the best looking. Yea.

Well, it's as canon as the all of the "good" endings are in Heavy Rain, if that's any measure.

Yea. To me good endings are the final scenes of the story. It's THE ending.

Titus wrote:

acewing905 wrote: Is this some kinda inside joke? Cause AFAIK, there's no "canon" KS storyline.

Yea it is People at one time liked to joke about Lilly being the canon character since Shizune and Lilly patch their relationship up a bit, and Hanako grows and becomes more comfortable around others. Plus she's a classy, motherly, kind, and strong woman with an extremely healthy adolescent sex drive, there are men that would kill for a woman like that. It really is too good to be true. Also she was voted somewhere as being the best looking. Yea.

She is also a caffeine addict, a nymphomaniac (yeah, "extremely healthy adolescent sex drive" in another way ) and shows the beginnings of an alcohol addiction. She's still awesome, though.

Mirrormn wrote:To the OP: how do you feel about the fact that Lilly received the request to live in Scotland permanently before she went on vacation with Hanako and Hisao, and therefore pretty much based her entire relationship with Hisao on a lie (or at least the withholding of truth)? For example, when Lilly cries to Hisao and says "Don't go away, I beg of you. Never, ever go away. I love you, so please...!", she already knows that she is going to leave him. You seem to have a lot of positive things to say about Lilly, so I'm wondering what you think about her more negative qualities.

This actually pissed me off when it was revealed to the point where I find her neutral ending to be preferable.

Don't forget she was on the pill by that point as well, so just how spontaneous her declaration of love on this little trip was is very much in question (and yes, I do realize there are other possible reasons why this might be but she doesn't offer any of them when asked about it).

Oh, and it's probably a GREAT idea to give constant caffeine to someone with a heart condition. Neither of them bothered to check if any of his many medications has a warning against being taken in conjunction with alcohol either. No wonder he's clearly in the worst shape in her route!