Katawa Shoujo Forums

So just last weekend I discovered Katawa Shoujo. Thankfully that Friday and Monday were also weekends due to easter, because I was so busy playing that I went to sleep later than I usually wake up. Needless to say I loved the game, 100%ed it, and the rest of the week was a sleepy blur. But all of that isn't really important. A little while ago I was browsing what I missed of SMBC and found this
http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20120412.gif
Instantly, that got me thinking, how WOULD you explain the idea of an optical illusion to, say, Lilly without making her think that sighted people are idiots? Do you know any auditory/tactile etc. illusions that could help?

Auditory Illusions? Surrounding said fictional Lilly around a set of surround speakers and running some weird confusing full surround sound that keeps changing direction.
Tactile Illusions? Those cheap little high school "Haunted Houses" where they have bowls covered and you touch them. (I.E. Grapes for eyeballs, spaghetti for guts etc.)

I think auditory would be the closest bet, bats use "sonic" chirps and map their environment, I would think that a human using hearing would be similar. I would say playing around with sound is the closest thing you can relate to in terms of optical illusions.

Optical Illusion

Is when you play a Trick on the Sight Sense.

Well, in the first place, the example given in the comic is barely even an optical illusion:

It's just a picture of a vase whose contours are specifically designed to look like the silhouettes of two faces. Once you understand that, it's not difficult at all to see the image either way, or in both ways at the same time.

In my opinion, something like this is a much better example of an optical illusion. The eye is tricked into seeing the box in a certain way, and even if you understand the mechanics of the illusion and know you're being tricked, it's still quite difficult to interpret the object the way it really exists.

That being said, there is one auditory phenomenon I know of that I think is very analogous to this concept of optical illusions: Shephard tones. The example on that page of the Shephard-Risset glissando will cause you to hear a note that constantly descends and yet eventually ends up at the exact same pitch as it started.

As for tactile illusions, I don't know of any really amazing ones (probably because it's not possible to share tactile illusion over the Internet), but the sense of touch is not infallible either, and can easily be tricked. For example, the common practice of putting a bowl of spaghetti in a darkened room in a haunted house and telling your victims that it is a bowl of human brain tissue. Or, the way heat can often be misinterpreted as the pain of a sharp object, or vice-versa.

I personally don't think you'd really need to be all that elaborate or go out of your way to provide sound/touch illusions. Lilly is a smart young woman who, while not having first hand experience with it, understands the concept of sight (as well as it is possible for her to at any rate). Simply explaining how the image looks vs how the reality of the situation is should be enough for her to understand it. For example telling her that you know the image is simply a picture printed on a piece of paper but when looked at it can appear like a three dimensional object seems like it would would be enough to me. She can understand the concept of something being other then what one might first have thought it to be.

Mirrormn wrote:Well, in the first place, the example given in the comic is barely even an optical illusion:

It's just a picture of a vase whose contours are specifically designed to look like the silhouettes of two faces. Once you understand that, it's not difficult at all to see the image either way, or in both ways at the same time.

In my opinion, something like this is a much better example of an optical illusion. The eye is tricked into seeing the box in a certain way, and even if you understand the mechanics of the illusion and know you're being tricked, it's still quite difficult to interpret the object the way it really exists.

That being said, there is one auditory phenomenon I know of that I think is very analogous to this concept of optical illusions: Shephard tones. The example on that page of the Shephard-Risset glissando will cause you to hear a note that constantly descends and yet eventually ends up at the exact same pitch as it started.

As for tactile illusions, I don't know of any really amazing ones (probably because it's not possible to share tactile illusion over the Internet), but the sense of touch is not infallible either, and can easily be tricked. For example, the common practice of putting a bowl of spaghetti in a darkened room in a haunted house and telling your victims that it is a bowl of human brain tissue. Or, the way heat can often be misinterpreted as the pain of a sharp object, or vice-versa.

I agree that that is one of the weakest illusions, but it is also one of the simplest and well-known ones, which is why it was used in that comic.

Hmm, those Shepard tones would probably be the best in terms of explaining illusions. Although our sense of touch is fallible, I'm not sure if you can use it very well to tell the spaghetti from the brain one you've had a good touch of it. And being able to see where you were fooled is a big part of illusion as far as I'm concerned.

Murkglow wrote:I personally don't think you'd really need to be all that elaborate or go out of your way to provide sound/touch illusions. Lilly is a smart young woman who, while not having first hand experience with it, understands the concept of sight (as well as it is possible for her to at any rate). Simply explaining how the image looks vs how the reality of the situation is should be enough for her to understand it. For example telling her that you know the image is simply a picture printed on a piece of paper but when looked at it can appear like a three dimensional object seems like it would would be enough to me. She can understand the concept of something being other then what one might first have thought it to be.

See, I'm not so sure that she can grasp sight at the level of fooling it. Sight is our most complicated sense, it transmits the most data, more accurately than the other senses, and faster. So fully understanding something on a higher level that anything you have ever experienced is nigh impossible. Like imagining that you do not exist.

Is it really "understanding something on a higher level"? She knows what a two dimensional picture is and knows what a three dimensional object is. She understands how vision works (again as well as she can) we even see that she is perfectly able to write out a note to hisao by herself (which surely requires at least a basic understanding of sight, images, and how they are perceived). She understands the concept of fooling/misleading a person (she enjoys doing it and has surely experienced hearing a sound or feeling an object that wasn't what she thought it was, whether that sound was a person altering the tone of their voice or whatever). Personally this sounds kinda condescending, that she wouldn't be able to understand because vision is just that awesome. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just can't believe that the concept of an optical illusion would be that difficult to grasp (even if she will obviously never experience it).

Murkglow wrote:Is it really "understanding something on a higher level"? She knows what a two dimensional picture is and knows what a three dimensional object is. She understands how vision works (again as well as she can) we even see that she is perfectly able to write out a note to hisao by herself (which surely requires at least a basic understanding of sight, images, and how they are perceived). She understands the concept of fooling/misleading a person (she enjoys doing it and has surely experienced hearing a sound or feeling an object that wasn't what she thought it was, whether that sound was a person altering the tone of their voice or whatever). Personally this sounds kinda condescending, that she wouldn't be able to understand because vision is just that awesome. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just can't believe that the concept of an optical illusion would be that difficult to grasp (even if she will obviously never experience it).

Hmm, yeah, I suppose you're right. I guess I lauded sight a bit too much. Would have been interesting to ask a blind person about it though

PikKirby wrote: I think auditory would be the closest bet, bats use "sonic" chirps and map their environment, I would think that a human using hearing would be similar. I would say playing around with sound is the closest thing you can relate to in terms of optical illusions.

This. I think the best way to help a blind person see the point would be giving an example that has relevance to him/her.

It's probably less of a problem of her not intellectually understanding sight and more a problem of Hisao being articulate enough to explain it sensibly.

I think the best way to explain an optical illusion to Lilly is to give her a tactile illusion:

http://mindbluff.com/lips.htm
http://mindbluff.com/nose.htm

Also here's more Optical Illusions for those that are interested:

Easy, I would just say it's like listening to two songs at the same time. And your "view" changes based on which song you focus on more. I think that's a good comparison.

GIRakaCHEEZER wrote:I think the best way to explain an optical illusion to Lilly is to give her a tactile illusion:

http://mindbluff.com/lips.htm
http://mindbluff.com/nose.htm

Also here's more Optical Illusions for those that are interested:

Those first 2 are pretty good, although I don't think it's really related to phantom limb pain, your body is used to the outsides of two fingers being on opposite sides, so when both sides touch a single object your body thinks there are 2 objects.

And those optical illusions are... err... interesting. Up to the 3rd one I thought I was missing something.

Guest wrote:Easy, I would just say it's like listening to two songs at the same time. And your "view" changes based on which song you focus on more. I think that's a good comparison.

Huh, that's actually really good, and really simple!

That awkward moment when you think you should have thought of something first