Katawa Shoujo Forums

Rin's neutral ending what are your thoughts? When i got it today on my march to 100%, i about died. To me her neutral ending was sadder than her bad ending.
When she says "I will try to forget you" and then mentions how she is good at forgeting things, just killed me on the inside.
(By the way i am in the process of doing rins route for a 3rd complete time)

Oh, definitely. Rin's neutral ending is the most painful and emotional of them all. I was hit particularly hard at the "I can't hug anyone, Hisao. I'm a bad person like that" line.

I just got this ending last night and I thought it was her bad ending, I couldnt think everything else that could be worse.

I liked Rin the least out of all the girls, so I didn't mind the ending too much. She was too goddamn indirect about everything that I couldn't get into her story. Now if Hanako's ending was like that, I'd be bawling my eyes out. Hehe.

Rin's "rainy street" ending was her bad end. The neutral ending was the "open arms" one at the end of act 4, because although Hisao 'gets' the girl and they love one another, he now has to deal with her awkwardness without an easy way out.

The good end, where he tells Rin what he really thinks about her at the art atelier, is the best ending because Hisao doesn't have to put up with her shenanigans anymore and Rin probably (Rin ending spoiler) kills herself.

megiddo wrote:Rin's "rainy street" ending was her bad end. The neutral ending was the "open arms" one at the end of act 4, because although Hisao 'gets' the girl and they love one another, he now has to deal with her awkwardness without an easy way out.

The good end, where he tells Rin what he really thinks about her at the art atelier, is the best ending because Hisao doesn't have to put up with her shenanigans anymore and Rin probably (Rin ending spoiler) kills herself.

How would that be the best end? Hisao would just blame himself for her suicide.

oh and.. hater :p

I never really understood why people say that Rin kills herself after her bad ending.

Unless I misread, which is possible, I didn't see it imply it.

Brodoin wrote:I never really understood why people say that Rin kills herself after her bad ending.

Unless I misread, which is possible, I didn't see it imply it.

It isn't actually said, but it is strongly implied. Remember the tale about Sae's husband? Rin was exactly like him in all the other aspects, so there is a good chance she had the same fate although it isn't a certainty.

Her neutral ending was painful for me mostly because of Hisao's attitude. In the end it was likely what was most realistic and ultimately it was probably better for them both. Sometimes a painful experience is that much harder when it's not so black and white.

Nobody in Particular wrote: It isn't actually said, but it is strongly implied. Remember the tale about Sae's husband? Rin was exactly like him in all the other aspects, so there is a good chance she had the same fate although it isn't a certainty.

Exactly. It's stated at a single point in the story (in Boundless) that Sae's husband committed suicide, and there are constant comparisons throughout the route between Sae's husband and Rin in terms of their youthful prodigy, artistic drive, singular focus, etc. Sae's husband committed suicide specifically because of his obsession with art, and you can plainly the pain and self-destruction that Rin is inflicting upon herself in pursuit of the same obsession. What I think is really interesting is that, during Boundless, if you choose "Why did you turn away from being an artist", Nomiya and Sae will specifically tell you that Sae's husband committed suicide, but if you choose "Is that why you're being so supportive of Rin?", they won't mention his suicide explicitly, but will give a lot more background on what lead up to it - how it was an inevitable outcome of his unlimited potential - and then Hisao asks "But what if... what if Rin is like your husband too? What if she's a person who has unlimited potential?" Sae responds with "I doubt it", but she's clearly worried about the same thing. If you consider both possible outcomes of this conversation together, the implication that Rin could commit suicide if she is left unchecked is pretty clear.

One last thing, though; I think Rin is saved from such a fate (in the good ending, at least) because of the compartmentalizing philosophy she holds about her sense of self and her attitudes towards changing herself. Before starting the art exhibition, she announces that she will have to change in order to accomplish it, and by all indications of the story, does so. That Rin, the one that is so focused on painting that she cannot even allow Hisao to get close to her, is the only one that can truly have the unlimited artistic potential that could lead to suicide. Later on, in the good ending, Rin decides to change again, and once she does, she is no longer capable of following that path towards self-destruction and madness.

Mirrormn wrote:Exactly. It's stated at a single point in the story (in Boundless) that Sae's husband committed suicide, and there are constant comparisons throughout the route between Sae's husband and Rin in terms of their youthful prodigy, artistic drive, singular focus, etc. Sae's husband committed suicide specifically because of his obsession with art, and you can plainly the pain and self-destruction that Rin is inflicting upon herself in pursuit of the same obsession.

Please bear in mind, though, that all such comparisons come from the outside looking in. I don't doubt that Rin has suicidal thoughts, but I'm in two minds about whether she'd follow through. My main problem is that I wonder about the when, where and how. She's committed to the exhibition; until the paintings
are done she won't kill herself; I'm pretty sure about that. Afterwards? Quite possible. I suspect a place that won't be easy to find. She'd just go missing. As for the method? I can't see a good one. It's possible she'd just culr up and die from neglect (freezing, thirst, illness, or whatever). A "passive retreat suicide" seems more likely than a "decisive act suicide". A body can take a lot of punishment, and whether she can take the discomfort without changing her mind depends on many factors. Not to mention that she just might be found. Another thing I could see is walking aimlessly about than just not stopping when a car approaches; but she'd have to be pretty far gone for that, as she wouldn't normally want to do that to the driver.

I don't think she's the type to plan and carry out a suicde.

What I think is really interesting is that, during Boundless, if you choose "Why did you turn away from being an artist", Nomiya and Sae will specifically tell you that Sae's husband committed suicide, but if you choose "Is that why you're being so supportive of Rin?", they won't mention his suicide explicitly, but will give a lot more background on what lead up to it - how it was an inevitable outcome of his unlimited potential - and then Hisao asks "But what if... what if Rin is like your husband too? What if she's a person who has unlimited potential?" Sae responds with "I doubt it", but she's clearly worried about the same thing. If you consider both possible outcomes of this conversation together, the implication that Rin could commit suicide if she is left unchecked is pretty clear.

Yes, but the implication is strictly point-of-view bound. Rin's route - more than any other, I think - is a big dance of points of view. It's clear to me, too, that both Sae and Hisao worry about Rin. Sae frames that worry as "being with artists" (which is, I think, why she's so forthcoming with personal information to Hisao). Hisao frames it in terms of "destroying herself". But Sae might neglect certain aspects of Rin's personality (such as Rin having no arms, which means that she has practised being treated differently from others from the beginning - which gives her intuitive frustration coping methods that her husband might have lacked). And Hisao, I think, misunderstands her attitude towards metaphors (he says something like she doesn't use metaphors, but that's probably not true in the way he imagines; it's just the world of metaphor and phenomena blend and at some time she loses track - ["am I the sky?" - It's very hard to take believe that Rin means that literally - except if she approaches shizophrenia]).

Mind you, I'm not saying she won't kill herself. This is a major crisis, and I'm pretty sure she'd have suicidal thoughts. But, because of the strict point-of-view nature of the narrative - and the way Rin's point of view constantly undermines any labels, and I doubt we're supposed to see her as an "artist-suicide". That's Sae's baggage and motivation, but not a narrative principle. At least that's how I read it. And I see Rin's destroying herself more like the tarot card "death", than any real suicide (though Rin's card certainly looks upside down...).

One last thing, though; I think Rin is saved from such a fate (in the good ending, at least) because of the compartmentalizing philosophy she holds about her sense of self and her attitudes towards changing herself. Before starting the art exhibition, she announces that she will have to change in order to accomplish it, and by all indications of the story, does so. That Rin, the one that is so focused on painting that she cannot even allow Hisao to get close to her, is the only one that can truly have the unlimited artistic potential that could lead to suicide. Later on, in the good ending, Rin decides to change again, and once she does, she is no longer capable of following that path towards self-destruction and madness.

That's not really how I read it. Any change is destruction, if viewed compartmentalised: Rin(A)--->Rin(B). Basically, Rin has problems with expectations that others bring to her. The exhibition is an example: she knows she's not ready, but she knows she can do it if she really tries, but she's not sure what effect that will have on her, and wether Rin(pre-exhibition) would like Rin(post-exhibition). In the end, she says "It's okay to be me." That is a bigger statement: it's the Rin(sky); it's life at the pace of clouds. She learns to trust her intuitions about herself, partly because she hasn't gone through with Hisao's expectations, and he's still here. Basically, rather than changing again, she's thinking that Rin(A) and Rin(B) are both Rin, because Hisao accepts them both (frustrations and all). Rin isn't off the hook; she has learned something important, but old thought habits don't die easily.

Dawnstorm wrote:

Mirrormn wrote:Exactly. It's stated at a single point in the story (in Boundless) that Sae's husband committed suicide, and there are constant comparisons throughout the route between Sae's husband and Rin in terms of their youthful prodigy, artistic drive, singular focus, etc. Sae's husband committed suicide specifically because of his obsession with art, and you can plainly the pain and self-destruction that Rin is inflicting upon herself in pursuit of the same obsession.

Please bear in mind, though, that all such comparisons come from the outside looking in. I don't doubt that Rin has suicidal thoughts, but I'm in two minds about whether she'd follow through. My main problem is that I wonder about the when, where and how. She's committed to the exhibition; until the paintings
are done she won't kill herself; I'm pretty sure about that. Afterwards? Quite possible. I suspect a place that won't be easy to find. She'd just go missing. As for the method? I can't see a good one. It's possible she'd just culr up and die from neglect (freezing, thirst, illness, or whatever). A "passive retreat suicide" seems more likely than a "decisive act suicide". A body can take a lot of punishment, and whether she can take the discomfort without changing her mind depends on many factors. Not to mention that she just might be found. Another thing I could see is walking aimlessly about than just not stopping when a car approaches; but she'd have to be pretty far gone for that, as she wouldn't normally want to do that to the driver.

I don't think she's the type to plan and carry out a suicde.

What I think is really interesting is that, during Boundless, if you choose "Why did you turn away from being an artist", Nomiya and Sae will specifically tell you that Sae's husband committed suicide, but if you choose "Is that why you're being so supportive of Rin?", they won't mention his suicide explicitly, but will give a lot more background on what lead up to it - how it was an inevitable outcome of his unlimited potential - and then Hisao asks "But what if... what if Rin is like your husband too? What if she's a person who has unlimited potential?" Sae responds with "I doubt it", but she's clearly worried about the same thing. If you consider both possible outcomes of this conversation together, the implication that Rin could commit suicide if she is left unchecked is pretty clear.

Yes, but the implication is strictly point-of-view bound. Rin's route - more than any other, I think - is a big dance of points of view. It's clear to me, too, that both Sae and Hisao worry about Rin. Sae frames that worry as "being with artists" (which is, I think, why she's so forthcoming with personal information to Hisao). Hisao frames it in terms of "destroying herself". But Sae might neglect certain aspects of Rin's personality (such as Rin having no arms, which means that she has practised being treated differently from others from the beginning - which gives her intuitive frustration coping methods that her husband might have lacked). And Hisao, I think, misunderstands her attitude towards metaphors (he says something like she doesn't use metaphors, but that's probably not true in the way he imagines; it's just the world of metaphor and phenomena blend and at some time she loses track - ["am I the sky?" - It's very hard to take believe that Rin means that literally - except if she approaches shizophrenia]).

Mind you, I'm not saying she won't kill herself. This is a major crisis, and I'm pretty sure she'd have suicidal thoughts. But, because of the strict point-of-view nature of the narrative - and the way Rin's point of view constantly undermines any labels, and I doubt we're supposed to see her as an "artist-suicide". That's Sae's baggage and motivation, but not a narrative principle. At least that's how I read it. And I see Rin's destroying herself more like the tarot card "death", than any real suicide (though Rin's card certainly looks upside down...).

Well, I agree that Rin would be very unlikely to commit suicide within the period of time of the game itself. It would more likely be a few years in the future, after spending a considerable amount of time in art school. According to my thoroughly depressing imagination regarding the topic, she would have a very difficult time in art school. First of all, she would have to deal with pressure from her instructors to constantly develop and exhibit her artistic brilliance, which would require her to remain in her pre-exhibition level of focus and obsession. However, she would also have to deal with acute social isolation, since she would no longer have Emi or Hisao to depend on, and since her new school would not be specifically oriented towards disabled students, she would have even more difficulty making friends and acquaintances. This is a big problem, because we know that Rin actually desires social acceptance and understanding, and she tries to achieve that through her painting. It's likely that her teachers and fellow students at art school would praise her artwork, but fail to understand it in the ways Rin wants, and that would become increasingly frustrating to her.

At some point, drugs would become involved. Maybe as a coping mechanism, maybe as a source of inspiration, maybe both. We know from Rin's codeine scene that she is very irresponsible with the dosing of medication, and we know from her scene smoking with Hisao that she embraces the concept of using drugs for inspiration. This all points straight towards Rin committing suicide by drug overdose. It wouldn't even have to be suicide explicitly; as you say, Rin is much more prone to a "passive retreat suicide" than a "decisive act suicide". I imagine her, at some low point of despair - perhaps out of desperation to create a piece of art that will finally connect with her viewers, perhaps out of regret for her loss of Hisao and her abandonment of Emi, perhaps out of pure curiosity for the experience itself - deciding to consume her entire stash of whatever drugs she has on hand. She would not be intentionally trying to end her life; she would know that she was putting it at risk, but would determine that that risk had to be taken, because existing in her current state was no longer bearable. Due to her social isolation, it would be unlikely for anyone to find her and get her medical attention until too late.

That was a thoroughly depressing bout of speculation

Dawnstorm wrote:

One last thing, though; I think Rin is saved from such a fate (in the good ending, at least) because of the compartmentalizing philosophy she holds about her sense of self and her attitudes towards changing herself. Before starting the art exhibition, she announces that she will have to change in order to accomplish it, and by all indications of the story, does so. That Rin, the one that is so focused on painting that she cannot even allow Hisao to get close to her, is the only one that can truly have the unlimited artistic potential that could lead to suicide. Later on, in the good ending, Rin decides to change again, and once she does, she is no longer capable of following that path towards self-destruction and madness.

That's not really how I read it. Any change is destruction, if viewed compartmentalised: Rin(A)--->Rin(B). Basically, Rin has problems with expectations that others bring to her. The exhibition is an example: she knows she's not ready, but she knows she can do it if she really tries, but she's not sure what effect that will have on her, and wether Rin(pre-exhibition) would like Rin(post-exhibition). In the end, she says "It's okay to be me." That is a bigger statement: it's the Rin(sky); it's life at the pace of clouds. She learns to trust her intuitions about herself, partly because she hasn't gone through with Hisao's expectations, and he's still here. Basically, rather than changing again, she's thinking that Rin(A) and Rin(B) are both Rin, because Hisao accepts them both (frustrations and all). Rin isn't off the hook; she has learned something important, but old thought habits don't die easily.

An interesting interpretation. But, I think it kind of ignores Rin's statement at the end Raison d'être ("I think I have to change") that specifically mirrors her statement at the end of The Scent of Light ("I am going to change"). And I don't think that change involves her embracing Rin(B) (the Rin who is obsessively focused on creating art) because when Hisao asks her in Proof of Existence "What about you? Did you become a true artist? Or did you not, because you ran away?" she just responds with a shrug and "I don't think it matters." It's more likely that she either changed back to a considerably more self-accepting version Rin(A), or a Rin(C) who converts her focus to her love for Hisao (note that the "I think I have to change" statement in Raison d'être is the last thing that occurs before Rin starts to actively pursue Hisao, first sexually in Without Breathing, Without a Sound and then emotionally in Proof of Existence).

Mirrormn wrote:Well, I agree that Rin would be very unlikely to commit suicide within the period of time of the game itself. It would more likely be a few years in the future, after spending a considerable amount of time in art school.

Ah, I misunderstood. If we take the long view, I don't actually think that the bad or neutral ending make too much of a difference. (There is a difference, in that in the neutral ending [rain scene] she still learns that understanding is impossible, and has a chance to draw benefit from it, by not putting future acquaintances under such pressure - unconsciously.)

According to my thoroughly depressing imagination regarding the topic, she would have a very difficult time in art school. First of all, she would have to deal with pressure from her instructors to constantly develop and exhibit her artistic brilliance, which would require her to remain in her pre-exhibition level of focus and obsession. However, she would also have to deal with acute social isolation, since she would no longer have Emi or Hisao to depend on, and since her new school would not be specifically oriented towards disabled students, she would have even more difficulty making friends and acquaintances. This is a big problem, because we know that Rin actually desires social acceptance and understanding, and she tries to achieve that through her painting. It's likely that her teachers and fellow students at art school would praise her artwork, but fail to understand it in the ways Rin wants, and that would become increasingly frustrating to her.

At some point, drugs would become involved. Maybe as a coping mechanism, maybe as a source of inspiration, maybe both. We know from Rin's codeine scene that she is very irresponsible with the dosing of medication, and we know from her scene smoking with Hisao that she embraces the concept of using drugs for inspiration. This all points straight towards Rin committing suicide by drug overdose. It wouldn't even have to be suicide explicitly; as you say, Rin is much more prone to a "passive retreat suicide" than a "decisive act suicide". I imagine her, at some low point of despair - perhaps out of desperation to create a piece of art that will finally connect with her viewers, perhaps out of regret for her loss of Hisao and her abandonment of Emi, perhaps out of pure curiosity for the experience itself - deciding to consume her entire stash of whatever drugs she has on hand. She would not be intentionally trying to end her life; she would know that she was putting it at risk, but would determine that that risk had to be taken, because existing in her current state was no longer bearable. Due to her social isolation, it would be unlikely for anyone to find her and get her medical attention until too late.

That was a thoroughly depressing bout of speculation

That's quite within character, and if you'd write that out, I'd buy it, but I'd consider that a worst-case scenario. People are people. Rin would definitely have troubles in art school (especially since she'll have to rely on grants). But it really depends on who she'll meet there. And while Rin does hide away, she's not unapproachable.

She'll certainly have a hard time dealing with pressure. And there will be pressure.

An interesting interpretation. But, I think it kind of ignores Rin's statement at the end Raison d'être ("I think I have to change") that specifically mirrors her statement at the end of The Scent of Light ("I am going to change"). And I don't think that change involves her embracing Rin(B) (the Rin who is obsessively focused on creating art) because when Hisao asks her in Proof of Existence "What about you? Did you become a true artist? Or did you not, because you ran away?" she just responds with a shrug and "I don't think it matters." It's more likely that she either changed back to a considerably more self-accepting version Rin(A), or a Rin(C) who converts her focus to her love for Hisao (note that the "I think I have to change" statement in Raison d'être is the last thing that occurs before Rin starts to actively pursue Hisao, first sexually in Without Breathing, Without a Sound and then emotionally in Proof of Existence).

I actually think none of this contradicts what I said, but it's hard to explain. Without going into too much confusing detail, I'd say that she's about to embrace a meta-Rin. That is neither Rin(A), nor Rin(B), but Rin, who can either be expressed as Rin(A), Rin(B), Rin(C)... Rin thinks about herself, I think, in terms of how others view her: so if Hisao stays through both Rin(A) and Rin(B), then it's neither he wants to be with, but Rin. There's someone who's her, but who's outside of her range of perception. But Hisao's continued presence indicates that she's there.

There are three senses of change involved.

One is gradual change. ("Even if I do nothing...") Just by living, you change. You grow older, etc.

The other sense is Rin(A) visualises a point B, and imagines a Rin(B) who can fulfill that task. This means the destruction of Rin(A), but an uncertainty about Rin(B), since to the extent that Rin(A) slips away, so does the plan behind the changing. What remains is a slope into madness. It's the tour-de-force change with the only anchor a future goal.

The third sense is a non-deadline, goal oriented shift, in which there is no destruction, but no constance either. It's a change-in-the-moment: Basically Rin(A) has the vision of a paradigm-shifted Rin who is not tied to any point (B). That she can envisage this at all is already a sort of change. I think the final "I have to change" is different from the others, because she can always "postpone" it when it gets too much (and that is its biggest danger, too: the eternal tomorrow).

Note that the earlier change-rational was: Nomiya and Hisao would like Rin(B); I'm not sure I can be Rin(B), but I'll try. After all, if I don't, they'll be angry at Rin(A) for not being Rin(B). Nomiya acted exactly like she thought, but Hisao didn't and that must have got her re-thinking the very concept of change. Hisao hung out with Rin(A); Hisao encouraged her to become Rin(B); Rin failed at becoming Rin(B), but Hisao is still there, and he's not even really angry at her. But it's obvious that he's not quite happy with Rin(A) either. Confusing, no? The solution is that there is no Mystery Rin X to satisfy Hisao. Rin can only be Rin. But that doesn't mean that she needn't work out problem areas of Rin(A), and go on from there. But there aren't going to be any pressure points B, C, D... Just a free-flowing Rin who learns to address problems as they arise. But Rin isn't quite there yet: She has to shift paradigms. She has to become a Rin who can change when necessary, without destroying herself. She has to develop of sense for Meta Rin. And that's why I think the final "I need to change" is new; a synthesis of free-flowing change, and deadline-goal change. Unachnored, yet still goal driven. It's okay to be Rin. See? She doesn't need to embrace Rin(B); just the fact that Rin(B), too, is an avatar of Rin.

I really hope that's not too confusing...

There may be some solace in the fact that Aura once said that he doesn't think Rin is the suicidal type.

While this lifted my spirits for a short while, I quickly returned to thoughts of accidental death not being considered suicide.

Actually, I really thought when she said about "destroying herself" was going to "suicide herself" and that Hisao was dumb looking at it in a figurative way xD
Rin's Neutral Ending was, to me, the bad ending. The real bad one was to as bad to me because it's more like "We wanted to be friends, but it just didn't work".

Mirrormn > I've seen a lot of your post, I admire you for analyzing Rin so well