Katawa Shoujo Forums

My two cents on this game:
http://www.archive.org/details/ADeadSpo ... ..Number17

I am open for criticism.

It should be noted that I kept it short ... a more thorough and deeper analysis would have brought more to the light of day, but it seems that it had been long enough already. The history of the game had been ignored willfully, because I felt that would have bloated it too much.

First of all, the way you've written your review is seems it is targetted at people who already have read the VN. This is evident in the structure of your text. For example, you start out by asking yourself if "such a game" should have been made at all, before even telling your readers what the VN is about. Someone who is new to KS would probably be lost several times over the way you're throwing names and plot points around.
Speaking of plot points... You're spoiling major plot points, including the endings. I don't think that's the purpose of a review...

That said, I'm not sure if you've been reading the same VN as the rest of us...
Neither "general reduction of female characters to sexual objects" nor painting "a blind person... as someone who waits to get laid" are things I'd bring into connection with KS on my own.
I also don't see why Shizune's arc is supposed to be "the only one that doesn't end once the heroine is conquered."
Emi starts going out with HIsao at the end of Act II just like Shizune. With Lilly it is in Act III; only with Rin and Hanako is it shortly before the end.
"How to deal with [a disabled] person and their... insecurieties is a topic that is avoided like the plague." - Really? I thought that was what KS is all about...
Regarding the loose ends: I grant some of your points are valid (e.g. the book thief subplot), but you seem to have missed a few parts like the one where Misha tells you why she is going to Yamaku, and some other stuff is simply not really important to the plot.

There's a lot of things that could be said, Mirage outlined most of it, so I won't repeat him. But the major problem is that...

You refuse to see disabled people as ordinary people.

I'm busy, so I'll rant how you can't tell me that the characters aren't empathetic later.

I'm having some trouble understanding a few of your arguments, and I think you may be defining some terms very differently from what I'm used to hearing. Could you please clarify two points?

1) You mention not being able to "empathize" with the characters, but the surrounding text sounds like you expected to pity them, didn't, and took that pity for lack of empathy. Do I understand that correctly?

2) You mention that "some narration would have been nice": what do you mean by narration? I thought there was plenty of narration, and I've heard people complain about there actually being too much.

encrypted12345 wrote:There's a lot of things that could be said, Mirage outlined most of it, so I won't repeat him. But the major problem is that...

You refuse to see disabled people as ordinary people.

I'm busy, so I'll rant how you can't tell me that the characters aren't empathetic later.

I don't know I thought he kind of had a point with that. The game seems to briefly mention the fact that they have disabilities but then it's just sort of put to the side. Should the game go out of it's way to ignore the girl's disabilities that much? It feels like maybe it should've touched on it a bit more than it did.

However given that the disabilities are the girl's problems and not yours, maybe that's why you don't see much of it. Whereas we saw how Hisao had to deal with his a lot, because he's the protagonist. I still think that it was ignored maybe a little bit too much sometimes, but eh.

Also he asks why does it end when you've "conquered" the girls? Well that seems like it has a really simple answer. For most of the paths the main conflict is Hisao trying to get into a stable relationship with the girl, so it'd be pretty boring to go on after that conflict reaches a conclusion.

Nekken wrote: 1) You mention not being able to "empathize" with the characters, but the surrounding text sounds like you expected to pity them, didn't, and took that pity for lack of empathy. Do I understand that correctly?

2) You mention that "some narration would have been nice": what do you mean by narration? I thought there was plenty of narration, and I've heard people complain about there actually being too much.

1. Technically, sympathy and empathy are two different things. Sympathy is like taking pity on someone while empathy is being able to put yourself in their shoes and being able to understand how they feel. (Characters were plenty empathetic though.)

A theme of a few routes was the harmful effects of pity though, so that irks me.

2. Maybe the guy wanted third-person narration?

GIRakaCHEEZER wrote:I don't know I thought he kind of had a point with that. The game seems to briefly mention the fact that they have disabilities but then it's just sort of put to the side. Should the game go out of it's way to ignore the girl's disabilities that much? It feels like maybe it should've touched on it a bit more than it did.

It mentioned the disabilities, but they didn't matter because the girls were LONG used to them already. Lilly, Rin, and Shizune were born with them, so they invented ways to work around the disabilities since before they could remember. What is darkness to someone who has never seen light? Everyday Life! Likewise, a person who has never known sound won't be pissed off by a lack of it, and legs can be pretty damn flexible with practice. The adaptability of humans is something to be amazed by, not ignored. I believe Lilly addressed that issue in her route.

Hanako doesn't care so much about her scarring as much as the unnecessary attention it gets. Her scarring was never the problem.

Emi ... is Emi. She's hyperactive and stubborn! Sure she misses her father, but as long as she can run, she won't angst about being legless.

Hisao is the one who's the least used to being disabled, so of course, he's the one who's most worried about being disabled.

encrypted12345 wrote:

GIRakaCHEEZER wrote:I don't know I thought he kind of had a point with that. The game seems to briefly mention the fact that they have disabilities but then it's just sort of put to the side. Should the game go out of it's way to ignore the girl's disabilities that much? It feels like maybe it should've touched on it a bit more than it did.

It mentioned the disabilities, but they didn't matter because the girls were LONG used to them already. Lilly, Rin, and Shizune were born with them, so they invented ways to work around the disabilities since before they could remember. What is darkness to someone who has never seen light? Everyday Life! Likewise, a person who has never known sound won't be pissed off by a lack of it, and legs can be pretty damn flexible with practice. The adaptability of humans is something to be amazed by, not ignored. I believe Lilly addressed that issue in her route.

Hanako doesn't care so much about her scarring as much as the unnecessary attention it gets. Her scarring was never the problem.

Emi ... is Emi. She's hyperactive and stubborn! Sure she misses her father, but as long as she can run, she won't angst about being legless.

Hisao is the one who's the least used to being disabled, so of course, he's the one who's most worried about being disabled.

Sure the girls are already used to it, but Hisao isn't. I expected him to be a little more curious about it. Maybe he doesn't even have to ask since they would just come up every now and then.

For example: How does Rin open doors? Are all the doors at Yamaku just push doors, and does her dorm have a key? It'd be interesting for little things like that to pop up in the story. Not that they don't, but they're just rare.

GIRakaCHEEZER wrote: Sure the girls are already used to it, but Hisao isn't. I expected him to be a little more curious about it. Maybe he doesn't even have to ask since they would just come up every now and then.

For example: How does Rin open doors? Are all the doors at Yamaku just push doors, and does her dorm have a key? It'd be interesting for little things like that to pop up in the story. Not that they don't, but they're just rare.

He was curious about it early on. He usually asks the other person about it and his internal monologues do show his curiosity about it during some of the Slice-of-Life moments. He stopped caring later on because in the end, they honestly shouldn't and don't matter.

And for your second point, like I said, Legs are pretty damn flexible

I'd be a little more curious than he seems to be though :/

encrypted12345 wrote:And for your second point, like I said, Legs are pretty damn flexible

That's pretty awesome, although I was hoping that she just kicks down all the doors. That's how I would want to do it.

GIRakaCHEEZER wrote:I'd be a little more curious than he seems to be though :/

encrypted12345 wrote:And for your second point, like I said, Legs are pretty damn flexible

That's pretty awesome, although I was hoping that she just kicks down all the doors. That's how I would want to do it.

I doubt it. For someone who's been armless for her whole life, it can't be that hard to grab some keys out of her pocket with her feet while sitting down, jam it into the keyhole, and twist. The mouth is also a viable option if her feet aren't precise enough to put the key in. A door knob would be problematic, but I can open a door handle with my chin. ... Actually, now that I think about it, it shouldn't be that hard to open a door handle while lying down with the proper amount of foot gripping power.

encrypted12345 wrote:

GIRakaCHEEZER wrote:I'd be a little more curious than he seems to be though :/

encrypted12345 wrote:And for your second point, like I said, Legs are pretty damn flexible

That's pretty awesome, although I was hoping that she just kicks down all the doors. That's how I would want to do it.

I doubt it. For someone who's been armless for her whole life, it can't be that hard to grab some keys out of her pocket with her feet while sitting down, jam it into the keyhole, and twist. The mouth is also a viable option if her feet aren't precise enough to put the key in. A door knob would be problematic, but I can open a door handle with my chin. ... Actually, now that I think about it, it shouldn't be that hard to open a door handle while lying down with the proper amount of foot gripping power.

It'd be so much more badass (but a little destructive) to just power kick all the doors though. Also who would want to lie down every time they had to open a door?

oneyoudontknow wrote: It should be noted that I kept it short ... a more thorough and deeper analysis would have brought more to the light of day, but it seems that it had been long enough already.

... If you don't mind, I would like to read this deeper analysis. Most of the arguments I can think of are something like "You couldn't see the subtleties!" or "You don't understand other humans and their interactions!". I honestly don't want to make a direct assault on your intelligence or sense of empathy when it's clear you put thought into this analysis. Unless it's a justified assault, of course.

encrypted12345 wrote:It mentioned the disabilities, but they didn't matter because the girls were LONG used to them already. Lilly, Rin, and Shizune were born with them, so they invented ways to work around the disabilities since before they could remember. What is darkness to someone who has never seen light? Everyday Life! Likewise, a person who has never known sound won't be pissed off by a lack of it, and legs can be pretty damn flexible with practice. The adaptability of humans is something to be amazed by, not ignored. I believe Lilly addressed that issue in her route.

This. One of the things the developers were careful to avoid is the old (and, to many people with disabilities, offensive) cliche that the protagonist has to "help" others find ways to deal with their disabilities. They did this by inverting the cliche: the girls all found ways to deal with their disabilities long ago, and the only ones with any trauma connected to them are the ones who actually acquired them through trauma. The one who needs help is actually the protagonist.

Hanako doesn't care so much about her scarring as much as the unnecessary attention it gets. Her scarring was never the problem.

I don't know if I'd say that her scarring is never the problem, as it interferes with her feelings for Hisao. But I do think you're right that in general, her actual disability is not the scarring, but the stack of anxiety and social issues caused by a combination of bullying, losing her parents, and survivor's guilt.

Hanako is an interesting case, actually, because she was arguably the most egregiously tasteless and insensitive aspect of the original sketch (except maybe the title, but I'm not so sure it's that easy to rank one above the other). As RAITA specified things, her "disability" was basically just that she wasn't attractive. The devs seem to have basically thrown that aspect of things out the window, taking the basic concept in a much more interesting and realistic direction.

encrypted12345 wrote:

GIRakaCHEEZER wrote:I'd be a little more curious than he seems to be though :/

encrypted12345 wrote:And for your second point, like I said, Legs are pretty damn flexible

That's pretty awesome, although I was hoping that she just kicks down all the doors. That's how I would want to do it.

I doubt it. For someone who's been armless for her whole life, it can't be that hard to grab some keys out of her pocket with her feet while sitting down, jam it into the keyhole, and twist. The mouth is also a viable option if her feet aren't precise enough to put the key in. A door knob would be problematic, but I can open a door handle with my chin. ... Actually, now that I think about it, it shouldn't be that hard to open a door handle while lying down with the proper amount of foot gripping power.

Doors built with handicapped people in mind don't use round knobs, they typically use lever handles of various types.
[shimmie]2006[/shimmie] [shimmie]2276[/shimmie]

Mirage_GSM wrote:First of all, the way you've written your review is seems it is targetted at people who already have read the VN.

Well, there are various ways of writing a text ... I choose this one. The idea had been to bring some kind of structure in the approach.

Mirage_GSM wrote:You're spoiling major plot points, including the endings. I don't think that's the purpose of a review...

Sure ... when you write about a music album, like I generally do, such are also elements in it. I wrote several times that there are spoilers.

Mirage_GSM wrote:That said, I'm not sure if you've been reading the same VN as the rest of us...
Neither "general reduction of female characters to sexual objects" nor painting "a blind person... as someone who waits to get laid" are things I'd bring into connection with KS on my own.
I also don't see why Shizune's arc is supposed to be "the only one that doesn't end once the heroine is conquered."
Emi starts going out with HIsao at the end of Act II just like Shizune. With Lilly it is in Act III; only with Rin and Hanako is it shortly before the end.
"How to deal with [a disabled] person and their... insecurieties is a topic that is avoided like the plague." - Really? I thought that was what KS is all about...
Regarding the loose ends: I grant some of your points are valid (e.g. the book thief subplot), but you seem to have missed a few parts like the one where Misha tells you why she is going to Yamaku, and some other stuff is simply not really important to the plot.

I approached this game with a blank mindset. I play games for nearly 20 year now; the Amiga 500 had been my starting point. That is where I am coming from.

About your criticism.
But you can look at it this way. The game mostly ends once you have the girl.
The Shizune one leaves open a perspective, while the others stop somewhere ... and then nothing.
Unlike a lot of other aspects in the game the reasons why Misha entered is rather buried...
I have the 100% achievement ... I completed the game. I did not go through every line of discussion for the review.

Nekken wrote:I'm having some trouble understanding a few of your arguments, and I think you may be defining some terms very differently from what I'm used to hearing. Could you please clarify two points?

1) You mention not being able to "empathize" with the characters, but the surrounding text sounds like you expected to pity them, didn't, and took that pity for lack of empathy. Do I understand that correctly?

2) You mention that "some narration would have been nice": what do you mean by narration? I thought there was plenty of narration, and I've heard people complain about there actually being too much.

1:
No. What the game fails to deliver is a convincing depiction of someone who is blind or suffering from some other kind of disability. It is too nice. Too positive. There is never some real kind of crisis.

Example:
Lilly says in the Hanako branch, that the school is far from perfect and has cliques and groups, which would create some 'trouble' or so; bullying or what not. Such is never there. There is hardly ever a reference to what is going on in the school; Hanako's incident or the epileptic fit are two examples for the contrary. The player is never in contact with this ... is never immersed on such a level as to experience it and to see the reactions of the 'characters'.

Then there is the aspect of the disabilities. Why does Lilly never appear in an non-immaculate kind of way? To name an obvious example. In order to pity them, the game would have had to move a good deal in another direction. What should have been done is to show the struggle a bit more. We, the normal ones, have difficulties in getting along and progress, while in this game everything was depicted in a too streamlined kind of way. Showing some of them, but not in order to exploit their struggles for a lame joke or the like, but in order to show how it can be dealt with. The game hardly ever touches this aspect.

What does the game give you at the end of the day? Are you able to understand someone better who is blind?

2:
Narration... audio form. A counterpoint. There is not enough text ... at times, there is even too little; especially in the Hanako branch.

GIRakaCHEEZER wrote:I don't know I thought he kind of had a point with that. The game seems to briefly mention the fact that they have disabilities but then it's just sort of put to the side. Should the game go out of it's way to ignore the girl's disabilities that much? It feels like maybe it should've touched on it a bit more than it did.

However given that the disabilities are the girl's problems and not yours, maybe that's why you don't see much of it. Whereas we saw how Hisao had to deal with his a lot, because he's the protagonist. I still think that it was ignored maybe a little bit too much sometimes, but eh.

This is what I meant. You can exchange the characters with normal persons ... because they are/were portrayed in a way that is simply too perfect. At some point in the game and while writing the review I had the impression that the designers were dancing around the tricky topics, in order to avoid some kind of faux pas. It is a tricky thing to create a game with disabled persons ... no doubt about that, but their shortcomings had hardly been touched in the game.

Well, once you are together with a girl, you should at least get a better impression of the struggles or? Be it the one of the girl or any other person in the school. Is this part of the game ... hardly.
As I had written in the review, the first scene with Emy is unconvincing ... on so many levels. Especially in terms of near death experiences. Again, everything remains nice and friendly. In some respect it might be proper to refer to the style of b/w films, because it is rare that the main protagonist dies; look at what someone like Buster Keaton performs and what strange situations he had been able to escape.

GIRakaCHEEZER wrote:Also he asks why does it end when you've "conquered" the girls? Well that seems like it has a really simple answer. For most of the paths the main conflict is Hisao trying to get into a stable relationship with the girl, so it'd be pretty boring to go on after that conflict reaches a conclusion.

I am someone who has a certain fancy for consistency. A game can be charming, despite it being consistently bad. KS fails in this respect. Shizune completes school and everything is brought to an end. It feels satisfying somehow, while the other plots end in the middle of it all.