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[Resign102]

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[Beoran]

Well to bring the subject back on track, this game did much the same for me, or at least it made me realize what I have been doing wrong in the last 6 years of relationship with my current and only lady of my life. Of course, I hope that the message of the game will also realy sink in and have effect on my acts before it is too late...

As for those "be a jerk" advices. I was actually so desperate at what to do at times when my white knighting failed that I tried the opposite, black knighting, behaving like a jerk, following advice similar to "those 16 rules of poon". You see, I'm intelligent, but I'm a fool. I lacked and still lack wisdom, so I fell from the one extreme into the other because if you follow a certain logic train, it seems to make sense to do so. It doesn't help that I (although I'm male) have a personality that's a mix of the spaciness of Rin, the shyness of Hanako, the arrogance of Shizune, the white knighting/fatherly instincts of Lilly and the libido of Emi. Add in some neediness to from who knows where? :p

So this type of black knighting crap does cause damage. I was fooled by it too. What I need is the wisdom to find balance. Katawa Shoujo made me realise that's the path I have to take. It's hard to express in words though, I feel finally I have felt it on a deeper than just purely rational level. Only experience is real--that's actually the only good advice on that link that was posted. For the rest, it pales to this gem of a game, which is not a game but a life changing experience.

Kind Regards,

B.

[Thrasher Thetic]

It isn't about finding balance between white knighting and black knighting. May sound trite, but just be yourself ffs.

If you have to significantly alter your behavior/personality to have a relationship with someone, you're probably doomed to failure. Remember the whole honesty thing? Find someone you enjoy your non-sex time with and go from there. This is not complicated.

[ran]

For all the people who have been posting in this thread: How in the world do you guys avoid the dreaded friend zone when it comes to dealing with women? I've gotten myself into the friend zone a couple of times, and the best thing that I could do in a relationship like that was to literally "just get the hell out of there and don't look back".

but that's just me.

[Resign102]

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[Mysterious Stranger]

Do not hesitate to ask for relationship advice over the internet. It is foolproof.

...though Resign102's suggestions aren't all that bad, so... maybe the KS Forums are the exception.

[Al]

If you cant just be yourself, then there's a problem.

Every time I hear this advice it makes my blood boil. That phrase gets used so often (and in wrong ways) that all of the people I know who received this advice never get anywhere. Instead of accepting your flaws in your character, why not choose to correct and improve it?

The correct phrase should be "The best that you yourself can be".

[Beoran]

It's true that it's not about a "balance" between white knight or black knight, because both attitudes are equally unproductive, so there is nothing good to balance between. Enjoying our time together, that seems like good advice... we had that when we first met, but gradually that feeling became more rare because of how we acted and act towards each other.

However, I agree, "be yourself" is sort of a useless advice because you're always yourself, even if you're faking things, or hiding your real feelings, or whatever misguided crazy coping strategy we come up with. it's hard to express, but I guess it's more about openness...

Kind Regards,

B.

[Nekken]

If you cant just be yourself, then there's a problem.

Every time I hear this advice it makes my blood boil. That phrase gets used so often (and in wrong ways) that all of the people I know who received this advice never get anywhere. Instead of accepting your flaws in your character, why not choose to correct and improve it?

The correct phrase should be "The best that you yourself can be".

I agree with you that "just be yourself" is an oversimplification, but I'd argue that a more precise rewording of that exact advice is "never pretend to be something you aren't."

Sometimes, what has to change really is yourself -consider both the white and black knights, both in their well-meaning and in their manipulative variations- and this sucks. It's a difficult and painful process. But if the change isn't genuine, it won't stick, and if it doesn't stick, it won't help. In fact, it'll seem even creepier. You don't get there by pretending.

That said, stating advice this way has become something of a losing battle in this day and age, as the idea of the "self" as static and unchanging has become more and more poplar. That's where things like "just be yourself" come from: an attempt to fit the advice to these new views. But as you point out, important things get lost in the translation.

[Palas]

The bottom line is what we see in Hanako's route, really. First fix yourself, come to terms with your own situations. Only then you'll be able to genuinely care about your peers' turmoils.

[Resign102]

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[Beoran]

That said, stating advice this way has become something of a losing battle in this day and age, as the idea of the "self" as static and unchanging has become more and more poplar. That's where things like "just be yourself" come from: an attempt to fit the advice to these new views. But as you point out, important things get lost in the translation.

I agree, there's no such thing as anything static anywhere. Everything continuously changes. An unchanging "self" is an illusion. However, it looks like the self is "unchanging", because when it comes to the "self", we tend to get more and more set in our (bad) habits, we tend to get more and more hardened. So it takes prolonged efforts to keep changing for the better, at least until those changes have become good habits of themselves.

Of course, it doesn't help to fake, pretend, or just deceive ourselves or others that we're making a change, or just give up and pretend it's not needed to change for the better. But it's much easier to do this that actually putting in the effort. In my experience, I fooled myself several times into thinking I was really getting better, while what I did wasn't enough. Now I think I finally understand that I have to stay alert to my own way of acting, however, without beating myself up over my mistakes (because that will discourage me even more). Most of my intentions are good, my mistakes mostly come from my bad habits, past pains and the scars of my heart.

The bottom line is what we see in Hanako's route, really. First fix yourself, come to terms with your own situations. Only then you'll be able to genuinely care about your peers' turmoils.

Well, I thought that the Hisao of that route didn't completely fix himself yet, but he he started putting in the effort and made some progres, and that's how he could begin to understand Hanako, and stopped treating her like a victim. In Shizune's and Lilly's route we see that Hanako herself is also putting in the effort, even if it's hard for her to do so.

What I mean is that I think it's extremely hard and time consuming to become completely "fixed", but maybe that's not needed. It's just the direction I'm going in, that I'm putting in the effort, that I'm slowly improving.

Plus changing a tad for someone isnt bad in my opinion.

Perhaps, but I think that the best motivation to change is when you feel a deep need to do so yourself.

[zettovyker]

To be blunt and forward, I want to say that I've been called a 'knight in shining armor' in my past.

Looking back on that now, it was true. What I was doing back then was basically trying to save her from her being so upset at her life and trying to protect her from her past.

It also feels redundant to double post my thoughts on the matter since I actually made a youtube video on how KS affected me as a maturing adult... but I'd like to touch on a side issue that bothers me a bit.

I've kept my happy-go-luck persona and continue to try and help others... but so much has changed since that pet name has been put on the racks. KS brought back some real rough memories and situations that shared the emotional tension I had back then. What struck me just as hard as you did was how Hisao (as a young adult) had this view that society kinds of implants in our heads that girls need saving, and we shoulder that burden. Blindly accepting the social standards of roles, without considering each individual scenario and person involved in life and in love.

Seriously: Superman? Super Mario RPG? Sleeping Beauty? All constant reminders that as men we're suppose to be that stereo-typical 'white knight'. KS brings us to reality that that isn't always the case. It's been my absolute fortune to actually find someone who doesn't need saving, and instead pushes me away from being her savior to allow myself to focus on me and be myself.

It might also just be my luck, but I find that if you stay true to who you are and you focus on your dreams and aspirations while keeping your eyes and mind open, you might just find the person you can help you as much as you help them. Symbiosis, in the sense of sharing each others burdens, weights, guilt, happiness, pain etc. etc. to where you both can nourish each other to bloom into full fledged human beings versus single-minded unthinking walking souls.

Being a white knight isn't so bad when the princess happens to be someone who helps you grow as a person and can better your life as much as you want to better theirs.

...being a princess who can utilize 'Group Hug' doesn't hurt either.

[The O.H.L.]

Being 15 uh... Uh... I mean 18 and never really having much in the way of a romantic relationship, this advice will probably save me in the future from possible mess ups. Maybe I need to have a relationship to understand what KS is trying to get across, maybe not. But I didn't realize that I had the whole "White Knight" persona thing going on myself till I got to Hanako's bad ending, and even then I didn't fully understand it till this thread pointed out the obvious that I could not see myself. But having experienced this sooner rather then later I think is going to be a good thing, along with all the advice that everybody is sharing here.

[Lurker.No9]

Large areas of womens' dating lore are dedicated to avoiding creeps and jerks, for definitions of "creeps and jerks" that vary according to culture and personal experience, and the major methods for doing this throw a lot of false-positives. Given what's at stake, it's not really fair to blame women for developing and using this: a low false-negative rate (threats identified as non-threats) is a much higher priority than a low false-positive rate (non-threats identified as threats). But it makes finding and navigating relationships much more difficult for decent men, particularly since the basics of this are not generally taught to men. Worse still, some of these men, having never been able to figure it out, eventually fall to despair and start listening to the jerks, becoming jerks themselves, and so the cycle continues. But what can you do? Again, consider what's at stake, and blame the jerks for making this necessary.

Really good analysis. I'll have to remember this line of reasoning.