Venting about Shizune's Bad ending...

[Megumeru]

Oh god why does it have to go to a debate agaaaaaaaaiiiinnn....

Only thing I would take issue with is that Hisao doesn't really say any of that explicitly, at least in Tongue-Tied. He just says "no," collapses onto the bed, exchanges a few more noncommittal words, and stays there until Misha leaves. Still, as you say, pretty admirable of him.

No, he doesn't. But concerning the route title and his reply, that's what I pretty much translate it to. I literally clap my hands and salute the guy when he actually said no...

You're completely ignoring the fact that this is your girlfriend's best friend. And please don't use the "we're talking about Hisao" cop-out anymore; I hate that fucker more than the next guy, but even I can say that he's not that big of a sleazeball. I'm going to cut out the giant chunk in the middle where you basically just say this but five times as long.

I am not. Copping out or not, it is the story about Hisao so I am not wrong to use his perspective to read through all his arguments, decisions, and what went through his mind. It is basic male human hormones and reactions regardless that it is your girlfriend's best friend, cousin (what?), some random girl from the bar, or that girl that works behind that coffee counter in Starbucks.

If she went to your room, made a jump and 'attack' you sexually it is basic male hormone reaction to respond to it. The rest is up to your own mentality: either you just let yourself go and enjoy the moment, or you stand by your principle and say no.

Seriously, though, she did all that just to stay friends with her, and those two retards put almost no effort into helping or even comforting their severely depressed friend. Maybe Misha should've befriended Lilly instead, since she actually gives a damn.

I'd love to make a detailed explanation considering Shizune's inability to relate to other people thanks to her deafness, but it'll take so much time that I might not even finish anything else around here so go lurk around in the other thread relating to this topic of what I meant.

oh, and like Lilly did with Hanako during her birthday? Ignoring her and let her pass that phase of depression until it was over? Isn't that the same thing as 'not doing anything' or 'not giving a damn'? Sure, she cared, but if I remember correctly she did tell Hisao to 'let her be' for awhile until she recovered--and this is when she's out in Scotland too.

I'm going to quite Shizune directly in ACTIV: "There's a fine line between helping someone and smothering them."
Lilly's actions on Hanako--and Hisao for the most part in her arc--is more akin to 'smothering' than helping, so really if we switch Misha with Hanako and have Shizune's plotline in Lilly's route, I would assume Lilly would do the same thing she did to Hanako during her depression: 'stay out of it and let her settle it by herself'.

The picnic isn't just about 'let's get back to old times' but it is also an effort from the 'attacking' party to cheer up/reinforce the now-battered Misha.

Yes, thank you for explaining why the picnic did nothing. And, to your point about there being no better alternative; bull-fucking-shit. They could've at least tried to get to know the real her instead of forcing her back into her shell. Depression is tough, I know, and having people you love be there for you is a huge help.

What if the people you love is the same people who put you in that depression? Think about it.

Do you still want to get close to them, or do you feel the need to keep a distance from them? What about if you think that keeping close to them meant hurting them/bothering them? A love triangle is most destructive when the three of you know each other and are close. First, it has the potential to crush your friendship, second it could easily lead the 'losing' party to depression, and third repairing the damage is twice as hard as it is with 'standard' friendship.

Now you want to find a section where they did comfort her, right? When the 'opposing' party opted to dodge or avoid the topic in your attempt to reconciliation, you corner and confront them directly. Check Shizune ACTIV, Parfait. The rest of the arc after parfait leads to them knowing better of her and her goals. Misha is Misha, and she is the hyperactive 'waha' girl in KS--the thing is, she also uses this as her 'mask' to cover up the pain she is experiencing.

How about, after telling her that, letting her vent and talk it out? She's obviously in pain and she came to you, the least you could do is show you care.

This is getting extremely retarded. My point was never that Misha did not intend to ride Hisao's cock, it was never that Hisao was above something like that, and it was never about any of this shit that you're arguing about now. My point was, is, and always will be that it was wrong of them to only give you the option of shoving her out or cheating on Shizune. There was no "I actually give a shit about this girl and want to help her, so I'll sit down with her and talk". Never. The only part in the story where that did happen was Hisao basically just telling her to stop being depressed because he liked the fake her better. That is my qualm, not all this retarded bullshit.

Not gonna' work if the other party keeps avoiding you or dodging the question. Trying to talk her about it during that scene would pretty much makes things worse for her, or she would immediately storm out of the room to avoid the discussion.

Thing is, even in reality if you're being pushed by a girl to the floor you won't have the time to make the decision on whether to 'no' or to 'cheat'--it needs to happen in split-second.

And since you are looking for 'i actually give a shit about this girl and want to help her, so I'll sit down with her and talk' then read Shizune ACTIV, Parfait and the following chapter. Read it carefully, as Hisao didn't tell her 'hey I like your fake better go back to your old self lol' cause that will make things worse and solve nothing. ACTIV, Parfait, Hisao confronts Misha then asks 'do you hate Shizune that much' before the conversation continues further. What he said is basically "you, stop running away from this shit and face your problems directly. We've done what we can, but you kept running from us and we're tired of this cat-n-mouse game so man up, face your problem, and let's clear this out together".

That's what I think anyway. Happiness and reconciliation aren't served in a silver plate, you know. You earn it.

[Synthus]

Goddammit, why are you opening yet another front?

[Dr. Robotnik]

To avoid the faggotry that went on for the last couple of pages, I'm only going to respond in full to the things that actually have to do with my original argument. Which, apparently, is just the end of your text wall of China.

And since you are looking for 'i actually give a shit about this girl and want to help her, so I'll sit down with her and talk' then read Shizune ACTIV, Parfait and the following chapter. Read it carefully, as Hisao didn't tell her 'hey I like your fake better go back to your old self lol' cause that will make things worse and solve nothing. ACTIV, Parfait, Hisao confronts Misha then asks 'do you hate Shizune that much' before the conversation continues further. What he said is basically "you, stop running away from this shit and face your problems directly. We've done what we can, but you kept running from us and we're tired of this cat-n-mouse game so man up, face your problem, and let's clear this out together".

That's what he said. The way he said it and the portrayal of events leading up to it, however, struck me not as "get help", but as "we're not going to even try anymore, either get better or get out". And with that kind of message, anyone would keep being fake, which is exactly what she did, because she acted like the old fake Misha from every point after that until the end. And to your point of "they did try, she just kept running"...have you played Hanako's route yet? Because the entire point was that you have to be patient and accepting. Hisao and Shizune (well, it's to be expected from her) were the exact opposite of that. It's not Misha's fault that they suck at life.

[Megumeru]

Goddammit, why are you opening yet another front?

I'm not. The other front is closed, this one is opened recently--I'm just responding to it.

...have you played Hanako's route yet? Because the entire point was that you have to be patient and accepting

I don't think you understand Hanako's route either.

Let's pull Hisao out of the equation. Without Hisao, we have Lilly as the 'stock' of Hanako's route and her usual way to "let it pass every single year". Considering the length of Hanako and Lilly's relationship, I can safely say that she went through something similar every year--an endless cycle, so to say. Now we add Hisao to the equation.

Did he wait and ignore Hanako's problems? He didn't; couldn't even sit still about it and called Lilly. What did he do? He take actions and confront Hanako about facing her problems by first telling her "hey I have a problem myself right here in my chest, so you're not alone" and that opened her. Hisao took actions and unlike Lilly, he didn't decide to ignore her problems and let the same cycle repeat again for another year to come (maybe).

Now say Shizune and Hisao acted "all patient and accepting" as you said they should. Considering how much damage that has been done to Misha (in her own ways of thinking) it's not going to get any better--more or less, it'll shatter the relationship to pieces without any clear answer. You say that she acted like the 'old fake Misha', but have you even considered that the 'mask' she has been wearing all that time was also the real her before Hisao butt-in between Shizune and Misha's relationship? Even in real-life people won't change character and personality 180degrees when receiving a good 'pat in the back' after depression. Then again, what is 'old fake Misha'? The one before Hisao came into the Student Council, or the one who hid behind her smile and laughter in ACTIV?

That's what he said. The way he said it and the portrayal of events leading up to it, however, struck me not as "get help", but as "we're not going to even try anymore, either get better or get out

I can't comment on your perspective, but as characters considered that is going way out of character for both Hisao and Shizune. Reread "Parfait" again, I urge you to. I'd love to quote it here, but I just don't bother to do so now

And to my point "they did try, she just kept running...", did they stop trying though? Up until "Parfait", they devised something to corner he and sort it out together. If a problem exist within a group, leaving it alone and letting it bury itself leads to nothing but a chain of misery that will continuously haunt the group to no end. So I'll say that both Hisao and Shizune did the right thing to keep pursuing Misha and try to bring them all together again. There's a saying I heard back in college that rings "a true friend will never leave you in the dark", and I say that echoes to Shizune and Hisao's action towards Misha's depression. They didn't ignore it--nor do they plan to--and instead kept pursuing her to pull her out of that darkness and return once more.

And lastly, it's not Misha's fault. When a group falls apart, it isn't the fault of a single member but the entire party.

[Mysterious Stranger]

...have you played Hanako's route yet? Because the entire point was that you have to be patient and accepting

I don't think you understand Hanako's route either.

Let's pull Hisao out of the equation. Without Hisao, we have Lilly as the 'stock' of Hanako's route and her usual way to "let it pass every single year". Considering the length of Hanako and Lilly's relationship, I can safely say that she went through something similar every year--an endless cycle, so to say. Now we add Hisao to the equation.

Did he wait and ignore Hanako's problems? He didn't; couldn't even sit still about it and called Lilly. What did he do? He take actions and confront Hanako about facing her problems by first telling her "hey I have a problem myself right here in my chest, so you're not alone" and that opened her. Hisao took actions and unlike Lilly, he didn't decide to ignore her problems and let the same cycle repeat again for another year to come (maybe).

Er... well, actually, if we're talking about the good ending, Hisao does take Lilly's advice and leaves Hanako alone during her cyclical birthday depression to deal with his own problems instead. Even after Hanako snaps out of it and returns to class, he continues to focus on schoolwork, as well as dealing with his past with Iwanako (see Shanghai Studiousness). It's only after Hanako visits him at the Shanghai that he starts to really take action, as you said, and that's well after her birthday.

[Dr. Robotnik]

Did he wait and ignore Hanako's problems? He didn't; couldn't even sit still about it and called Lilly. What did he do? He take actions and confront Hanako about facing her problems by first telling her "hey I have a problem myself right here in my chest, so you're not alone" and that opened her. Hisao took actions and unlike Lilly, he didn't decide to ignore her problems and let the same cycle repeat again for another year to come (maybe).

Somehow you took the word "patience" and twisted it into "sitting around and doing nothing". I get that I'm unclear sometimes, but how is that even possible? My point was that you can't be like them and be all pushy and upfront and then give up after the first or second try. It's a long road to recovery, depression doesn't just go away because you want it to.

Now say Shizune and Hisao acted "all patient and accepting" as you said they should. Considering how much damage that has been done to Misha (in her own ways of thinking) it's not going to get any better--more or less, it'll shatter the relationship to pieces without any clear answer.

Honestly, the best option for her would've been to get new friends, but seeing as how Hisao, unlike Shizune, isn't Hitler, they still have a chance to be friends.

You say that she acted like the 'old fake Misha', but have you even considered that the 'mask' she has been wearing all that time was also the real her before Hisao butt-in between Shizune and Misha's relationship? Even in real-life people won't change character and personality 180degrees when receiving a good 'pat in the back' after depression.

We really don't have that big of an idea of who she was pre-Yamaku, but it's painfully obvious that the Misha we see is just hiding behind her pink drills and laughter.

Then again, what is 'old fake Misha'? The one before Hisao came into the Student Council, or the one who hid behind her smile and laughter in ACTIV?

the one from the beginning until act 4.

I can't comment on your perspective, but as characters considered that is going way out of character for both Hisao and Shizune. Reread "Parfait" again, I urge you to. I'd love to quote it here, but I just don't bother to do so now.

Yes. They need to go out of character, because the way they have been acting is killing her. Literally. Shizune was such a cold-hearted apathetic bitch that she drove Misha to become suicidal. At that point, anyone who isn't a monster would start to wonder "hey, maybe I should treat people, or at least this person, better". And, once again, I point you to Hanako's route where the same point is driven home.

You know, I keep pointing to Hanako's route to solve Misha's problems...maybe it would've just been better if she went after Hanako instead of Shizune.

And to my point "they did try, she just kept running...", did they stop trying though? Up until "Parfait", they devised something to corner he and sort it out together.

That was the problem. They were rushing to solve the problem and were just using an attack strategy, which is completely not the way to go about it. You have to attempt to get her to open up, but you can't pry. You can't just leave the problem alone, but you can't rush to solve it. And, even if they were slightly less retarded, the end result of them just basically telling her to go back in her shell because they'd rather have a fake, manic-depressive suicidal friend than a real happy person that they don't like as much was just horrible.

Anyway, please stop twisting my words into horrible abominations and then basing your entire argument off of them. If I say something, I mean that, not whatever you want it to be (ex. patient = patient, patient =/= inactive).

EDIT: I re-watched "parfait", and she's even worse than I remember. Shizune almost understands, and then just completely misses the point. "people don't change overnight, so here's this quick plan of attack that will instantly solve the problem". And she's also completely incompetent at people. "Hey, Shizune, do you think that this is a bit too abrasive?" "No, we can't back down, because easing off even a little is COMPLETELY GIVING UP!" Ad that was some nice shaming from Hisao. Everyone knows that the best way to handle someone with depression is to make them feel guilty about how other people are worried about them. And, when you think he can't get any less sensitive, he just straight up tells her to be more positive and that her way of thinking is wrong. His tour of Yamaku was pretty alright, but it still just feels like she just went back into her shell instead of actually getting better.

[nemz]

Honestly, the best option for her would've been to get new friends, but seeing as how Hisao, unlike Shizune, isn't Hitler, they still have a chance to be friends.

Godwin's law. Argument over, you lose.

[Dr. Robotnik]

It's Godwin's Law, but it's not a Reductio ad Hitlerum since it was just a passing comment/exaggeration and not a part of my actual argument.

[ravenlord]

It's Godwin's Law, but it's not a Reductio ad Hitlerum since it was just a passing comment/exaggeration and not a part of my actual argument.

The "l" isn't capitalized -- it is indeed "Godwin's law". And it does apply because linking Shizune with Hitler is an inappropriate, inordinate, and hyperbolic comparison.

It is also usally a good sign of needing to step back, taking a breather, and evaluating just how emtionally attached you are to the topic. It is good that KS can arouse passionate discussion, but like everything, it goes sour when you push it to far.

[Dr. Robotnik]

The "l" isn't capitalized -- it is indeed "Godwin's law". And it does apply because linking Shizune with Hitler is an inappropriate, inordinate, and hyperbolic comparison.

I did say that it was Godwin's law (no capital l's here), I was just saying that it was not a Reductio ad Hitlerum, which is the actual fallacy.

It is also usally a good sign of needing to step back, taking a breather, and evaluating just how emtionally attached you are to the topic. It is good that KS can arouse passionate discussion, but like everything, it goes sour when you push it to far.

...Are you really taking my comparison of a fictional anime girl to the worst person who ever lived seriously? Because it was not. Granted, she does share quite a few character traits with Hitler, but I was not saying that she was literally Hitler. Really, if you're taking every instance of Godwin's law (still no capital l) seriously, even when it is barely relevant and can easily be ignored, you are the one who needs to step back and take a breather.

[Synthus]

Yes. They need to go out of character, because the way they have been acting is killing her. Literally. Shizune was such a cold-hearted apathetic bitch that she drove Misha to become suicidal.

Holy shit, friendzoning someone is that serious now? Fuck.

And she's also completely incompetent at people.

Jeesus.

[nemz]

Just stop replying. The argument is over.

[Dr. Robotnik]

Holy shit, friendzoning someone is that serious now? Fuck.

She was contemplating suicide, I'm not just pulling this out of my ass.

Just stop replying. The argument is over.

Actually yes, since nobody is bringing up anything relevant anymore.

[Synthus]

She was contemplating suicide, I'm not just pulling this out of my ass.

Suicidal ideation is not uncommon when people are faced with significant emotional trauma. Most people retain enough sanity to recognize that going through with it is a fucking silly idea though.

In any case, 'contemplating suicide' really says very little about the degree of emotional wounding that Misha experienced. She got friendzoned, tried to make herself believe that she still had a chance by being 'the nice guy', got mopey and depressed when the object of her affection found a boyfriend, and got over it by focusing more on her schoolwork after Shizune and Hisao showed her that they still cared.

[MasterJHG]

Both Shizune endings are bad ends













because it means you were with Shizune ... WAHAHAHAHA~!

LOL.....i agree, for me Emi's ending it's worst....well it's a tie, because there is a Hanako's bad ending as well

Emi's end make me feel like a used and broken sex toy, her whole route, was in vain

Hanko's end make me feel like the worst person in the earth, because you try to help her and she never asks you for that, she only wants to be loved as she is, and you fail to her.

the happy end of Shizune only give me this feeling: we'll be the three Musketeers forever...oh thats good rigth...no, itn's rigth at all