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Is it just me, or does Hisao seem like an abuser? I'm probably missing something here, but he kept trying to get Hanako to go outside. Why? She wanted to be left alone, and he refused to leave her.

...and then "it could be a small date" and "I want to help you/protect you."

WHATISHAPPENING?! YOU'REMAKINGITWORSTNOOOO ;_;

In my opinion, Hanako had the right to explode.

He was being incredibly pushy and naggy towards her.

I found it kind of unsettling that he couldn't take no for an answer.

"We can go outside, Hanako! You can get better too!"
"No, please go away."
"I know what's good for you, now come with me!"
"I'd rather not, please just GO!"
"Now now, I don't think staying inside is good for you..."
-HANAKO!RAGE-

I don't know if I'd go so far as to call him abusive: there are lines he does not cross or even approach. But it is true that he's being awfully insistent, and even inconsiderate, in that ending, and that Hanako was indeed right to explode.

Nekken wrote:I don't know if I'd go so far as to call him abusive: there are lines he does not cross or even approach. But it is true that he's being awfully insistent, and even inconsiderate, in that ending, and that Hanako was indeed right to explode.

Still... blind, stpud, asshole mode he had on

By the time the bad end rolled around, Hisao simply sunk so deep into his White Knight role (which was partially to avoid having to deal with his own insecurities) that "helping" Hanako had turned into an obsession. (something that was lost on him, but not on her)

The role of "savior" in a codependant relationship feels good to the rescuing partner because the notion that someone is relying on him and "needs" him gives a subtle sense of superiority that can feel comforting and even addictive. The worse Hanako got, the more Hisao clung to this role. I wouldn't call it directly abusive, but definitely othering and offensive, albeit very misguided.

When Hisao went to visit Hanako, she was already an emotional wreck and Hisao mentioned how he and Lilly just had a mutual worrying session over the phone about her behind her back, the whole thing became too much for her. (Hanako of course not knowing Lilly had tried to call Hisao out on his growing obsession)

Ultimately Hanako's path is about two people whose mutual insecurities lead them into an unhealthy relationship that either explodes or, if Hisao takes up Lilly's advice to take a step back and focus on his own life, ends up with both Hisao and Hanako taking the first steps towards saving themselves, as painful as those steps are.

The gist of it that I see was that he punched her in her pride - which is something that you should never, ever do to someone you care about; especially when she's already in a fragile state. I've had that happen to me (though unintentionally), and it hurts.

Guest Poster wrote:By the time the bad end rolled around, Hisao simply sunk so deep into his White Knight role (which was partially to avoid having to deal with his own insecurities) that "helping" Hanako had turned into an obsession. (something that was lost on him, but not on her)

The role of "savior" in a codependant relationship feels good to the rescuing partner because the notion that someone is relying on him and "needs" him gives a subtle sense of superiority that can feel comforting and even addictive. The worse Hanako got, the more Hisao clung to this role. I wouldn't call it directly abusive, but definitely othering and offensive, albeit very misguided.

As someone who's been thrown into the role of White Knight twice now, I would say your interpretation isn't completely wrong but way off the mark on several key points. Speaking strictly from personal experiences, while the role of savior in a codependent relationship felt good, it wasn't because of a "subtle sense of superiority": one was done out of a sense of responsibility for the girl's life (and that's not being colorful; I talked her out of committing suicide, so everything that happened to her afterwards was essentially my "fault") and the other involved trying to help someone out of an abusive relationship that was growing increasingly worse. These weren't some romantic fairy tales; these were incredibly messy affairs that dragged on for months or years, were emotionally draining, and generated a lot of drama that I didn't effing want or need.

That being said, Hisao went completely overboard in the bad ending. Had I been in his shoes, I'd simply have hugged Hanako, told her I loved her and was worried about her, that she could always talk to me if she needed someone, and then left her alone. I wouldn't have incessantly badgered her the way he did.

Hell hath no fury like a woman.

As someone who both suffered at one point from depression and dated a shy girl with depression and lost her by the same way Hisao did (Actually, I was much worse than him in several other areas as well.) I got to say that I loved the good ending. It almost made me feel good, knowing that if I was a little less selfish and maybe identifying why I was being selfish in the first place would make things work out.

It's strange. It's like this game give me closure.

About the bad ending: I just read spoilers and I think it's a very realistic and interesting ending. I just couldn't bring myself to go through it. Maybe when I'm not as vunerable after finishing Shizune bad route I should give it a go.

What I do dislike about this is how people are throwing terms like "White Knighting" without realizing that this was a bit more of just Hisao wanting to protect Hanako. Hisao used as a excuse to make he himself a "better person". If he is protecting her, then he doesn't need to face his own problems. One of the dialogues with Lily makes this clear as day to me. I may been projecting, but that's how the story hit me.

That being said, Hisao went completely overboard in the bad ending. Had I been in his shoes, I'd simply have hugged Hanako, told her I loved her and was worried about her, that she could always talk to me if she needed someone, and then left her alone. I wouldn't have incessantly badgered her the way he did.

That is sweet. However, I think when you have depression, and you are in the middle of one of the depression cases, feeling sad, depressed...It's very hard to just communicate with someone. For instance the actions you described could've hustled Hanako's jimmies, seeing how deep her depression is. I'm a hopeless romantic so I think that action would led to something happier down the road. But only if Hisao learned not to just protect Hanako, being there for her not being there as a shield for all the problems in the world. Since this just makes things worse on the long run. I'm not saying protecting someone you care is bad, it is bad when you define your relationship as that (As Hisao was doing up until that realization moment.)

Uhm I hope I'm being clear. That route made me wonder about so many things.

Ockbald wrote:As someone who both suffered at one point from depression and dated a shy girl with depression and lost her by the same way Hisao did (Actually, I was much worse than him in several other areas as well.) I got to say that I loved the good ending. It almost made me feel good, knowing that if I was a little less selfish and maybe identifying why I was being selfish in the first place would make things work out.

What I do dislike about this is how people are throwing terms like "White Knighting" without realizing that this was a bit more of just Hisao wanting to protect Hanako. Hisao used as a excuse to make he himself a "better person". If he is protecting her, then he doesn't need to face his own problems. One of the dialogues with Lily makes this clear as day to me. I may been projecting, but that's how the story hit me.

My experience with my own "princesses" were split. In one case, I admittedly went completely overboard White Knighting, but that was due to the fact that an immediate and very real danger existed in her life (physically and verbally abusive boyfriend), I was stuck halfway around the world from her, and my academic, family, and love lives all imploded at the same time (which doesn't exactly contribute to your emotional balance or rationality). This isn't at all the same situation as Hanako's. She wasn't being mercilessly tormented or beaten up at school. She didn't have an incredibly poor judgement and wasn't prone to making stupid, self-destructive decisions. She'd just been depressed, socially ostracized, and shy for nearly a decade. There was no ticking time bomb scenario that required her to be fixed right this minute.

Ockbald wrote:That is sweet. However, I think when you have depression, and you are in the middle of one of the depression cases, feeling sad, depressed...It's very hard to just communicate with someone. For instance the actions you described could've hustled Hanako's jimmies, seeing how deep her depression is. I'm a hopeless romantic so I think that action would led to something happier down the road. But only if Hisao learned not to just protect Hanako, being there for her not being there as a shield for all the problems in the world. Since this just makes things worse on the long run. I'm not saying protecting someone you care is bad, it is bad when you define your relationship as that (As Hisao was doing up until that realization moment.)

My second "princess" teamed up with the dragon and ran me through with my own sword, so yeah. Living only to protect another can be a fool's errand.

That's one thing I must admit that I really, really hated about this game: the lack of a greater depth of interactivity. As socially retarded as I am, I think I probably could've salvaged a few of the bad endings if I'd been given additional options allowing Hisao behave more like I would've if I were in his situation.

Perhaps I overestimate my skills, but, as a hopeless romantic myself, there's no effing way the scene in Hanako's dorm would've ended the way it did if I'd been there. We'd probably have ended up naked in bed together, but all the stuff that came out during the park scene would've come out without the incredibly awkward and painful sex. I'm thinking tears of joy and falling asleep in each others' arms.