[19:38] <Delta_Kurshiva> VNs are not games
[19:38] <TheHivemind> And they will always view VNs as a game.
[19:38] <climatic> I'd argue that VNs are games
[19:38] <TheHivemind> No matter how hard you argue the thought process goes "is it on the computer -> is it a hypertext -> no it is not -> IT IS A GAME.'
[19:39] <TheHivemind> Shit most people cut out the bits in the middle 'cause they don't know what a hypertext is.
[19:39] <TheHivemind> On account of it being the worst word
[19:39] <TheHivemind> So undefined
[19:39] <Delta_Kurshiva> VNs are arguably hypertext
[19:40] <TheHivemind> Arguably they are, yes
[19:40] <TheHivemind> In fact there isn't even an argument.
[19:40] <TheHivemind> They are.
[19:40] <TheHivemind> But because they are marketed as 'dating sims' or whatever the terms get confused.
[19:40] <TheHivemind> And so people expect a higher simulation.
[19:41] <Aura-> who goes next on the card?
[19:41] <climatic> anyway VNs in the most traditional sense can easily be considered games
[19:41] <climatic> especially bishoujo games
[19:41] <TheHivemind> I guess I will but it will just be text.
[19:41] <climatic> since the objective is to get your waifu
[19:41] <Aura-> that is not a problem
[19:41] <TheHivemind> Yeah but you don't have to
[19:41] <climatic> and you have to make some sort of decisions to get them
[19:41] <TheHivemind> Actually try to get your waifu
[19:42] <climatic> well you don't have to play MGS to blow up metal gear
[19:42] <Aura-> I guess it's all about approach
[19:42] <Aura-> I've always likened VNs more to books
[19:42] <Aura-> never thought about them as games
[19:43] <TheHivemind> The average consumer would view it as a game. You would have to spin it as AN INTERACTIVE STORYTELLING EXPERIENCE
[19:43] <TheHivemind> You know
[19:43] <TheHivemind> Like Quantic Dream does.
[19:43] <climatic> well that is what it is
[19:43] <TheHivemind> Because both Heavy Rain and Fahrenheit were VNs.
[19:43] <climatic> I mean you can ignore the douchey buzzwords
[19:44] <climatic> but in the end it's still an interactive storytelling experience
[19:44] <climatic> I mean if you wrote a straight up novel with no interactivity whatsoever, but then put it in digital format
[19:44] <climatic> I guess that would not be a game
[19:45] <climatic> I would not call that a visual novel either though
[19:45] <Aura-> really?
[19:45] <climatic> well unless you had music and pictures
[19:45] <Aura-> why not
[19:45] <Delta_Kurshiva> interaction does not make anything a game
[19:45] <climatic> but then it is more than just the writing
[19:45] <climatic> so it's no longer a book
[19:45] <Aura-> but not a VN?
[19:45] <TheHivemind> Depends on how you're defining game, Delta. A lot of theorists say choice makes a game a game.
[19:45] <climatic> no I am saying there is more to VNs than just writing
[19:46] <TheHivemind> And if you have no choices you have no game.
[19:46] <climatic> and that is why they can't really be considered books
[19:46] <Delta_Kurshiva> I think skill defines a game
[19:46] <Delta_Kurshiva> there is no skill in VNs
[19:46] <TheHivemind> They can be considered electronic novels though.
[19:46] <climatic> well there is novel in the genre title
[19:47] <TheHivemind> 'cause just by putting 'electronic' in front of it you bring in the idea that you're allowed to use the abilities unique to a computer.
[19:47] <TheHivemind> Like music and pictures.
[19:48] <TheHivemind> And animation
[19:48] <climatic> well i think it's possible to make a VN that is much closer to a book than a game, since it is a sort of inbetween
[19:48] <climatic> but katawa shoujo is definitely a game
[19:48] <Delta_Kurshiva> I disagree
[19:49] <TheHivemind> It is why you can call something like The Unknown 'electronic literature' as well as something like 5ideways or Problem Sleuth or whatever.
[19:49] <Aura-> even if it is, it doens't feel like one
[19:49] <TheHivemind> Also KS is not a game.
[19:49] <climatic> ok so what is it then
[19:49] <Delta_Kurshiva> A VN
[19:49] <climatic> but VNs are games
[19:49] <Delta_Kurshiva> no
[19:49] <TheHivemind> No they are not, they are hypertexts.
[19:50] <Aura-> if KS is a game, a CYOA book is a game
[19:50] <climatic> I won't disagree
[19:50] <climatic> there is an element of interaction and that makes it a game in an abstract sense
[19:50] <Aura-> I mean, a CYOA book might be a game, but it sure doens't feel like one
[19:50] <Aura-> same for visual novels
[19:51] <Delta_Kurshiva> well if you say "game in an abstract sense"
[19:51] <Delta_Kurshiva> that may be true
[19:51] <climatic> who says a game can't feel like a book?
[19:51] <TheHivemind> Or works of ergodic literature if you ask some dudes.
[19:51] <Delta_Kurshiva> but it is true for so many things that it makes the thing meaningless
[19:51] <climatic> well some things are more or less abstract than others
[19:52] <TheHivemind> Except I hate the guy who coined the phrase ergodic literature so I don't use it much.
[19:52] <climatic> I remember back when we were testing KS (testing it as if it were a game)
[19:52] <climatic> and I died an awful lot
[19:52] <climatic> because the 'game' was too difficult
[19:52] <Aura-> a good point
[19:52] <Delta_Kurshiva> yeah so we made it easier because we do not consider that desirable
[19:53] <climatic> but you can still fail if you are pretty dumb and make bad choices
[19:53] <Delta_Kurshiva> sure, a VN has elements of games
[19:53] <climatic> you can't do that in a book
[19:53] <TheHivemind> You can do it in a CYOA
[19:53] <Delta_Kurshiva> But that does not make them full games
[19:53] <Delta_Kurshiva> it's like saying "hey it has animated cutscenes so it is a movie"
[19:54] <climatic> also have you noticed that people refer to actions hisao takes in first person, as if they were the ones doing it
[19:54] <TheHivemind> And there has, bizarrely, been at least one serious work of CYOA.
[19:54] <climatic> it's because he's the player character
[19:54] <climatic> rather than just the protagonist
[19:54] <TheHivemind> Also because we wrote him terribly
[19:54] <Delta_Kurshiva> yeah we do not consider that desirable
[19:55] <climatic> I think it's an idea you could give some thorough exploration
[19:55] <Delta_Kurshiva> what idea
[19:55] <Delta_Kurshiva> blank slate MC?
[19:55] <climatic> the main character as the 'player character' rather than the protagonist
[19:55] <climatic> not necessarily a blank slate
[19:55] <Delta_Kurshiva> well we already did
[19:55] <climatic> although that would make things simpler
[19:56] <Delta_Kurshiva> our whole branching theory depends on the player's choices influencing what type of person hisao is
[19:56] <Delta_Kurshiva> in subtle ways
[19:56] <Aura-> alternatively, make the player a character in the story
[19:56] <Aura-> as in break the 4th wall
[19:56] <Delta_Kurshiva> ever17
[19:56] <climatic> well the thing about this idea is that you actually need players, and that means releasing games
[19:57] <climatic> so i would not worry about it for teh time being
[19:57] <climatic> *the
[19:57] <Delta_Kurshiva> this is what makes ever17 so genius
[19:57] <Aura-> yes
[19:57] <climatic> but yeah I think the fact that people refer to hisao as if they were him is one of the key aspects that makes VNs more like games then books
[19:57] <Delta_Kurshiva> the twist in ever17 is indeed one of the most profound I've ever seen
[19:58] <Delta_Kurshiva> the game is not even close to always being at that level though
[19:58] <climatic> like rather than from a technical perspective but from a mental perspective
[19:58] <climatic> the experience is different
[19:58] <Delta_Kurshiva> first person narrative has that effect
[19:58] <Delta_Kurshiva> don't you feel the same about narcissu
[19:58] <climatic> yeah but lots of books are written in first person
[19:59] <Delta_Kurshiva> even though it doesn't have choices
[19:59] <TheHivemind> Books don't normally have choices though.
[19:59] <climatic> yeah i got that sense from narcissu as well
[19:59] <TheHivemind> But CYOA books have the same effect.
[19:59] <climatic> it ties into the "IT'S LIKE I'M REALLY _______________"
[19:59] <Delta_Kurshiva> I consider that an often overlooked facet of narcissu
[19:59] <TheHivemind> It's that element of interaction which works for immersion.
[19:59] <Delta_Kurshiva> you identify with the protagonist as a player character
[19:59] <Delta_Kurshiva> but you STILL have no choice
[19:59] <climatic> in narcissu's case it would be "IT'S LIKE I'M REALLY TAKING A ROADTRIP WITH A DYING GIRL"
[19:59] <TheHivemind> Just that minimal amount of interaction does the trick.
[20:00] <Aura-> man you make it sound like I'm weird for reading VNs without immersing my own persona into them
[20:00] <Aura-> climatic
[20:00] <Delta_Kurshiva> because the whole story is about not having choices
[20:00] <climatic> yeah aura I think that is the goal
[20:00] <climatic> it is just most VNs suck dicks
[20:00] <climatic> or the protagonists are so sociopathic and uncanny
[20:00] <Delta_Kurshiva> I never identify with VN protagonists
[20:00] <climatic> that you cannot relate
[20:00] <Delta_Kurshiva> not even with Blick Winkel
[20:00] <Delta_Kurshiva> I understood I was supposed to, and that was enough for me
[20:01] <Delta_Kurshiva> but I still did not feel like I was him
[20:01] <Aura-> yeah this is my experience too
[20:01] <Aura-> for every VN I've ever read
[20:01] <climatic> well i don't think you always have to go that far
[20:01] <climatic> but i think the way the player pespective is handled is a key aspect
[20:02] <Delta_Kurshiva> other way round
[20:02] <Delta_Kurshiva> do you feel like you "are" the protagonist in traditional games
[20:02] <Delta_Kurshiva> Half-Life is a prime example
[20:02] <climatic> well rather than feeling like gordon freeman is climatic
[20:02] <climatic> It's more like climatic is gordon freeman
[20:03] <TheHivemind> IT'S LIKE I'M REALLY A SCIENTIST WITH A CROWBAR?
[20:03] <climatic> yes
[20:03] <TheHivemind> Yeah.
[20:03] <Delta_Kurshiva> gordon freeman is as blank as they come though
[20:03] <Delta_Kurshiva> you never even see him in the game
[20:04] <Delta_Kurshiva> and a FPS is by definition the most immersive game imaginable
[20:04] <climatic> ehhhh
[20:04] <Delta_Kurshiva> funny that with all the "games must have stry" movement, there is also a strong trend to thrid-person shooters
[20:04] <Aura-> yeah I think I identify more with Shepard or Freeman than I do with Shiki or Hiso
[20:04] <Aura-> hisao
[20:05] <climatic> actually i have always found the constraits of the screen do not mimic human sight enough for fist person to feel like it should
[20:05] <Delta_Kurshiva> so you would rather have more abstraction?
[20:05] <climatic> I think third person games are actually more accurate because you have some degree of prepherial vision
[20:05] <climatic> (and then some)
[20:05] <Aura-> do you identify with your WoW character
[20:05] <Delta_Kurshiva> yeah but in TPSs you always have the feeling that you're remote-controlling someone
[20:06] <climatic> I don't play WoW
[20:06] <Aura-> it was [insert third person game]
[20:06] <Aura-> do you?
[20:06] <Delta_Kurshiva> in RPGs, the whole point is that you're roleplaying as someone
[20:06] <climatic> yeah I guess I do?
[20:06] <climatic> I mean that is why this motion control business is so solliy
[20:06] <Delta_Kurshiva> you might be roleplaying yourself, but there's still a layer of abstraction
[20:06] <climatic> *silly
[20:07] <TheHivemind> Yeah RPGs are all about abstraction.
[20:07] <climatic> rather than being more immersive it is just distracting
[20:07] <TheHivemind> They are also the most effective.
[20:07] <climatic> a regular controller is so simple that it minimizes the mental jump
[20:07] <Delta_Kurshiva> I rarely ever feel immersed in a game anyway
[20:07] <TheHivemind> Stuff like Mass Effect or Fallout or Planescape that let you decide how you will act
[20:07] <Delta_Kurshiva> so i miht not be the best person to talk about this
[20:07] <TheHivemind> And then actually has people react accordingly.
[20:07] <TheHivemind> But immersion is a tricky fucking thing to get a handle on.
[20:07] <Delta_Kurshiva> yeah but the question is
[20:08] <Delta_Kurshiva> is that more abstract or more immersive
[20:08] <Delta_Kurshiva> and are abstraction and immersion even antonyms
[20:08] <TheHivemind> They aren't really. Something abstract can be immersive.
[20:09] <Delta_Kurshiva> so what are their respective antonyms then
[20:09] <TheHivemind> Abstraction encourages a greater mental involvement, really.
[20:09] <TheHivemind> You invest more brain power into suspending your disbelief or buying into the story.
[20:09] <Delta_Kurshiva> well let's define these terms then
[20:09] <TheHivemind> Abstract/Concrete Immersive/Self-Aware
[20:10] <TheHivemind> Or not self-aware, really.
[20:10] <Delta_Kurshiva> so what is "concrete" in a game context
[20:10] <Delta_Kurshiva> FPS as opposed to TPS?
[20:10] <Delta_Kurshiva> wagglan as opposed to button pressing?
[20:10] <TheHivemind> Hmm... I'm not sure. Honestly I think that both are abstractions.
[20:11] <climatic> brb
[20:11] <Aura-> super mario vs crysis?
[20:11] <Delta_Kurshiva> well wagglan is, but it's still less abstract
[20:11] <Delta_Kurshiva> I think there is an uncanny valley of controls
[20:11] <Delta_Kurshiva> pressing a button is canny because it's totally abstract
[20:11] <TheHivemind> Anything that asks you to believe you are 'a character' is abstract. Something like PacMan or Tetris is concrete because it's just a presentation of mechanics. No story, just movement and scoring.
[20:11] <Delta_Kurshiva> wagglan is uncanny because it's supposed to be realistic but is not really
[20:12] <Delta_Kurshiva> >Anything that asks you to believe you are 'a character'
[20:12] <Delta_Kurshiva> does Half-Life really want you to believe that?
[20:12] <Delta_Kurshiva> does metal gear solid?
[20:13] <TheHivemind> Sure they do.
[20:13] <TheHivemind> On one level you are being asked to say 'I am controlling this character's actions to drive the story.'
[20:14] <climatic> when you die in pacman you would think 'oh man I died'
[20:14] <TheHivemind> On another you are being told 'these are the rules of a game, overcome these obstacles in order to gain the rewards of victory.'
[20:14] <climatic> rather than 'oh man pacman died'
[20:14] <Delta_Kurshiva> isn't that just a shorthand
[20:14] <climatic> I mean that's a stretch but I think there are still elements of it
[20:14] <Delta_Kurshiva> you say "wtf I died" even in tetris
[20:14] <Delta_Kurshiva> as a shorthand for "I just lost the game"
[20:15] <TheHivemind> I hate the dichotomization of the debate, but games interact on a narrative and ludic level.
[20:15] <TheHivemind> Simultaneously.
[20:15] <Delta_Kurshiva> sure
[20:15] <TheHivemind> We even create a narrative when we play Tetris.
[20:15] <TheHivemind> It is just a personal one.
[20:15] <climatic> yeah that's what I'm trying to get at
[20:15] <climatic> you don't really get that with books but you'd get it when you get b6ed in kS
[20:15] <climatic> *KS even
[20:16] <TheHivemind> (Agh, actually they are all 'personal,' hang on I gotta think this through)
[20:16] <Delta_Kurshiva> yeah the thing is
[20:16] <Delta_Kurshiva> you apparently consider that kind of immersion in a VN a plus
[20:16] <Delta_Kurshiva> when we consider it a fault
[20:16] <climatic> huh
[20:16] <climatic> I guess
[20:16] <climatic> well i don't know if it's an absolute plus
[20:17] <climatic> but I think it is something that should be considered at least
[20:17] <TheHivemind> The whole electronic storytelling thing is the trickiest goddamn theoretical thing to talk about.
[20:18] <climatic> well it's new and there aren't any big books on it
[20:18] <TheHivemind> There's a surprising amount, although most of them are general 'new media' books.
[20:18] <Delta_Kurshiva> it seems we are able to pull it off reasonably well just on intuition
[20:18] <Delta_Kurshiva> and I think that is the most important part
[20:19] <Delta_Kurshiva> One of our main drives in writing is to try to make Hisao a stronger character
[20:19] <Delta_Kurshiva> and I think even if we managed that, it would still not break the player-character bond
[20:19] <climatic> yeah
[20:20] <TheHivemind> Damn I could almost write a blog post about this.
[20:20] <Delta_Kurshiva> it's not like we are saying "WE MUST BREAK THIS BOND BECAUSE WE HATE IT"
[20:20] <TheHivemind> This shit is my jams