Page 1 of 2

Cybernetic implants

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:14 pm
by Shockproof Jamo
Recently, I watched James Cameron's masterpiece, The Terminator again after a few years, and the scene where Arnie is fixing his damaged arm in that cheap hotel room with an X-Acto knife and a pair of pliers got me wondering about a certain aspect of the Yamaku girls' personalities that I'd like to touch with you here, in this topic: Given that if the technology to replace damaged/missing bodyparts with high quality cybernetic implants were to exist in the world of Katawa Shoujo, do you think that the girls would embrace the opportunity to become "normal" with such an aid? Or, would some of them perhaps reject the possibility to leave their crippled life behind, maybe for example preferring the more simpler life of a crippled person where the society may not necessarily demand as much from you, as opposed to if you were a healthy person?

Would Hanako gladly shed off her old, burned out skin to replace it with a new one made of synthetic tissue that you wouldn't be able to tell apart from the real thing? Would it heal her psyche aswell?

Would Emi dare to risk her promising running career by switching her existing prosthetics to new ones that might, or might not have a negative impact on her running performance?

Would it make Lilly more pessimistic and less sweeter person, if she'd gain the ability to actually see the evils of this world with new, mechanical eyes?

How would it affect Shizune if she'd be able to hear the nasty things people might be saying about her behind her back with high tech hearing aids?

And... would Rin embrace the opportunity to finally be able to use a toilet, any toilet and not just the bidet-equipped ones, without any help from others, using newly attached, servo-driven mechanical hands? :lol:

One more aspect to this is that the implants the girls would receive could be masked with synthetic tissue to look like perfectly normal human body parts, so that in essense, the girls wouldn't be "crippled" anymore in the eyes of others.

Re: Cybernetic implants

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:58 pm
by G3n0c1de
If such technologies existed, over time, they'd become commonplace, and not be seen as 'new', 'out there', or 'radical'. At least, that's how I hope things would develop. Stigmas about having to use such technologies would gradually decrease. And in being so common, and accepted, I don't think the girls would even have to decide whether or not to use such devices. The characters whose disabilities have affected them all their lives, such as Lilly, and Shizune, would have had their parents to make the decisions for them. In a world of such technologies, those girls would grow up not even knowing that they were born blind, or deaf. And after Emi's accident and Hanako's burns, it wouldn't be a choice whether or not to get treatment, or artificial limbs. It would be standard procedure.

But your post implies a different scenario. If the technologies were made available to the girls at the present day of the game, how would the girls respond to them? Would they choose to use these technologies? How would their personalities affect their decisions? And how would these technologies change them?

For Hanako, her phyisical and mental scars are problems that are tied to each other. We may not see it in game, but I think that Hanako is somewhat depressed, and wracked by feelings of guilt. In a warped way, perhaps she sees her scars as punishment, that she deserves them for being responsible for her father's death. While this is all conjecture, the point I am trying to make is that, even if the physical damage is removed, the mental damage may remain. Or, she might find the will to move on. Who knows?

For Emi, it really depends on how she sees her 'running career'. Does she think that this is her calling? Or does she run just because her disability made her able to do so? With cybernetic prosthetics, she may just go back to living a normal life. She may see them as an opportunity. And I feel that advanced cybernetic legs will be much stronger than real legs, so while she will be able to run much faster, it would be seen as cheating if applied to a competition, so she'd be barred from competing. Which may not be a bad thing. Does she like the competitive part of running? Or just running for the sake of running?

I think Lilly's personality would be unchanged by the addition of sight. Years of being blind have made Lilly who she is, a quiet, reserved, and polite woman. And I'm not sure what evils she will see if finally given the chance to do so. She probably experienced a lot of bad things while being blind already. And you must remember, along with the evils of this world, comes beauty to be seen. Especially so for Lilly, she'd marvel at how everything looks. Every. Single. Thing. Her whole life she was denied a sense, and to gain it back, she may even be overwhelmed.

The same for Shizune, I think the good far outweighs the bad. Finally being able to hear everything, from music to Misha's "Wahaha~!". She'll have finally broken the communication barrier between her and the world. Misha would be out of a job, but at this point, people don't stop being friends, especially after being as close as those two are. And Shizune would need help adjusting to a world with sound, so who better to help her than her best friend. I'm not sure if she is actually mute, or just remains silent of her own will, but the prospect of hearing her voice seems awesome. And about hearing people say bad things about her... god help the people that she catches. And really, I'm not sure if people actually talk bad about her in school. It seems more like a problem on the forums. She seems to be respected enough to have attained the position of president of the student council. Note that I don't know how student councils work in Japan. In my school it was chosen by democratic vote. Even so, I believe that she is still respected, even if people tend to skirt around her as to not incur her wrath.

And for Rin... that's a tough one. Rin is just so different from the others that I'm not sure if she'd take arms or not. Of course she could now get dressed by herself, and wipe her ass. But I don't know how Rin thinks. Perhaps she'd see having arms as an adventure. I don't know.

Edit: And let's not forget Misha. Though liposuction is already a common technology so...

Re: Cybernetic implants

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:28 pm
by Bara
This technology is closer than you think. Right now only the govornment can afford to develop stuff like this. Check the link below for a 60 Minutes article and video on the new DEKA Arm. (DEKA is the company of the guy who invented the Segway)

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/04/ ... 5509.shtml

Now, please remember this is out of the time period for KS. Don't bug the devs with a bunch of comments about, "Why can't Rin have these arms." and crap like that. Hell, the program to develop these is newer than KS.

Re: Cybernetic implants

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 pm
by toast
This is a pretty good topic that you've brought up. For Lilly and Shizune, it probably wouldn't bring that much "evil" as you put it. I mean, they deal with the same social problems as everyone else, they would both almost certainly see (no pun intended) no problems with getting a replacement. I may just be seeing myself in this, but if you can get a replacement that functions as well or better than the real thing, why would you pass it up?

Re: Cybernetic implants

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:57 pm
by Vertical
This topic reminds me of that episode of House from the latest season where he diagnoses a hearing impaired kid, sneaks a cochlear implant into him during a procedure, then after the kid grapples with the joys of hearing his named called by his mother rips the device out.

Change is hard. The girls in this story encompass a wide variety of disabilities that they've adapted to for years. If they were given a free ticket to a normal body, I'd envision the more practical girls like Shizune, Lilly, and Emi (only because she was normal once and bawwing about her handicap is bound to come up in the story) accepting them. They don't suffer from identity crisis with their disability, but make the most while having them.

Hanako would take synthetic skin in a heart-beat. No question. Her disability is her self-esteem shot to shit by her scars. Being seen is torture to her.

Rin. Hrm. I don't know. Not enough of her personality is revealed in the demo to make a judgement call. There are reasons for and against. She might be practical enough to accept augmentations for hygene related necessities, but her dependance on others - because of her disability - presents the chance to get close with people. I could see a compromise for her accepting some but not all.

Re: Cybernetic implants

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:05 pm
by darkblade986
I think the main question, if this were to be considered, is how integrated has each girl made their disability into their lifestyle? In other words, how easily could they adapt to normality, considering the abnormal circumstances they currently reside and thrive in? Just going down the list from the characters page, here's what I'm thinking.

Emi is at the peak of her career as a track star thanks to her accident. For her, her current prosthetic limbs simply give her feet. She still has her knees and can walk as fluidly as any other person with actual legs. Her only difference is that she doesn't have the ability to feel terrain by the placement of her foot due to the lack of nerves in that part of her body. If anything, her current prosthetic limbs are more efficient (I would imagine) due to the fact that she has one less movable joint - her ankles. She could potentially swing either way on this, though I would imagine she would choose not to. She is (most likely) not going to gain any nerves in her feet through advanced prosthetics, and her current limbs works perfectly fine as is. If she truly wanted to look normal, a simple flesh cast that fits over her current limbs could probably be adapted, as well as shoes. Her prosthetics wouldn't need to be changed; just camouflaged. Again, I'd imagine she'd opt not to.

Like G3n0c1de said earlier, Hanako's issues are more emotional and mental then they are physical. She now has a scar that stands out heavily against the rest of her body, and she is embarrassed about it. Whether new skin would solve this problem is hard to say, but considering that she has lived with these scars and in her current reclusive lifestyle for years (her accident occurred while she was young), fixing the problem would probably not solve the emotional and mental scaring she has let grow. So long as people can look past the scaring and see Hanako for herself, she'll be fine. That being said, whether Hanako takes the prosthetic skin or not would more likely be dependent on the opinion of her friends, Lilly and Hisao (assuming this comes up on her path). Lilly would probably say that it makes no difference to her (seeing as she can't see) and that Hanako should do what she thinks is right. Hisao would probably try to convince her otherwise and not take it, taking the role of the "love you but don't 'love you' love you" friend, saying that she doesn't need the skin to be herself and make friends, but would probably also leave it up to Hanako in the end.

Lilly, being blind from birth, has likely grown up with imaginations of what things look like. She has learned to live with her disability, and I imagine that by giving her sight, she would be put through far more hardships than she would be by living her life blind. She would have to learn to recognize faces, get colors straight (her red could be our blue), and then there's all the other concepts that require visual cognizance. However, from what I've seen of Lilly, I'm sure she's suppressing her resentment for having to rely on people for help (such as the Shopping trip). Given the option, I'm sure that this resentment would come out, and it would become an argument between her and her friends of "I don't want to be a burden on you," versus "But you're not a burden on us." I really couldn't predict either way whether she would or she wouldn't take them.

Rin has become very skilled as using her feet to do everyday things. Her lack of arms also gives her the ability to be generally lazy, as noted by the loafing around at the school festival, since she can't be expected to perform everything. Giving Rin arms would probably be the equivalent of amputating someone's dominant hand, skill-set wise. Rin would have to learn to write and do other things with her hands, when all her life, she's been foot-handed. I'm sure everyone's gotten curious and tried to write or do something with their off-hand, so I'm sure they know the difficulty. Our brains learn the most while we're young, so not only will Rin have to learn how to do stuff with her hands, but she's at an age where imprinting that knowledge would be difficult. Besides, I doubt she's want to give up her ability to be lazy. I'd imagine no.

Shizune is both mute and deaf. She can't hear, nor can she speak. Assuming that this was a birth defect, it means she doesn't know (most likely) any phonetics, which means she'd have to learn vocal languages. She'd have all the time in the world, I'm sure, but she'd still have to. However, with Misha at her side, she's never in need of ears or her mouth. Her hands do all the work for her. Misha, so far as we can tell, doesn't mind being a translator and I'm sure Shizune is aware of this. While I'm sure she'd love to stop being a burden, since she is unable to, she might as well make the most of her life with the help of her friends. I still put this as a toss-up however, and lean more towards her actually getting the implants. She's a smart girl and could pick up vocal language quickly. It simply comes down to a case of how overwhelmed will she be from all the sounds she can now hear?
Change is hard. The girls in this story encompass a wide variety of disabilities that they've adapted to for years. If they were given a free ticket to a normal body, I'd envision the more practical girls like Shizune, Lilly, and Emi (only because she was normal once and bawwing about her handicap is bound to come up in the story) accepting them. They don't suffer from identity crisis with their disability, but make the most while having them.
Acknowledging your comment, I'm not sure the identity crisis would be the only considering factor, or the fact that would make this an automatic decision. Lilly would have to be slightly concerned about how she would start getting along with people being able to see their disabilities, the exact reason why Hanako makes perfect friends with her. Emi has gained superior track skills as a result of her losing her legs, and I doubt she'd want to risk it by getting them back.
Hanako would take synthetic skin in a heart-beat. No question. Her disability is her self-esteem shot to shit by her scars. Being seen is torture to her.
And as I said before, she has grown up and gotten into the habit of hiding and not being seen. I know how she feels (somewhat). I'm 19, obese, and have always been the 'new kid' at school since I was never at the same school for more than 2 years (lots of moving). I never got a chance to make and friends, and the fact that my first encounters were almost always the standard new kid taunting comboed with the fat kid insults, I became a recluse, picking up few friends throughout my years. Just by losing weight, which was the physical taunting factor, I doubt I could overcome my reclusiveness in a heart beat because I've grown up with those habits. I can really only express myself like I am right now because the internet gives me the same veil of comfort that Hanako gets with Lilly. You all can't see what I look like, so I'm more able to talk freely.

...

Gah! Wall of text on my first post! :oops:

Re: Cybernetic implants

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:17 pm
by Vertical
Welcome new guy. Opinions are appreciated here, and it looks like you've got a lot to say. You'll fit in.

But yeah... walls of text are more likely to get your stuff ignored unless it's the opening post of a really awesome thread that holds the promises of tits and explosions.

Still, opinionate away.

Re: Cybernetic implants

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:21 pm
by darkblade986
Heh, I know - I have the same habit more than I'd like to admit.

Re: Cybernetic implants

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:40 pm
by G3n0c1de
darkblade986 wrote:If she truly wanted to look normal, a simple flesh cast that fits over her current limbs could probably be adapted, as well as shoes. Her prosthetics wouldn't need to be changed; just camouflaged.
I think Emi already has a pair of 'normal' looking prosthetics. Its in the 100% completion reward image. They look like normal legs, and she wears stockings over them to mask that they are artificial. I think she only wears her legblades when she wants to run, and has her normal prosthetics on at all other times.

And I don't see any problem with text walls, as long as what has been written is worth reading.

Re: Cybernetic implants

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:51 am
by carbonartistmonked
accept them as who they are
no matter whatever you do to try to improve
we are human after all :o
whatever you attach to your body
is not yourself :shock:

the technologies may end up killing you instead
just like the terminators did :shock:

Re: Cybernetic implants

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:16 am
by G3n0c1de
I suppose it would be bad if Rin's artificial arm strangled her in her sleep. But on the whole I think that would be unlikely. These cybernetics don't have many ways to kill people. Especially of their own will, because they don't have their own will. No AIs to go rogue here.

Also, I was thinking, what if Lilly's artificial eyes came with a heads up display? Not that she'd need an ammo counter or colored damage overview or anything like that. But a HUD for civilian use seems cool. Perhaps it could have a map, with GPS, or a day planner schedule thing. A clock, a calendar, stuff like that. I don't want to get too out there, and turn her into a cyborg (much), so receiving phone calls and going on the internet are out.

Re: Cybernetic implants

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:17 am
by Bara
carbonartistmonked wrote:accept them as who they are
no matter whatever you do to try to improve
we are human after all :o
whatever you attach to your body
is not yourself :shock:
Then why do so many humans posess anthropomorphic tendencies to some extent or another? Wether it is sailors and boats, car buffs and their vehicles, basement dwelling internet geeks and their computers, or small kids with their favorite stuffed toy. :mrgreen:
I've heard people claim that humans are nothing but biological machines. (I disagree with that idea, but thats another topic.) So from that point of view isn't it a very small leap from the "biological human machine" to the "technological human machine"?

Just a train of semi-random thoughts started by this thread. :D

Re: Cybernetic implants

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:29 am
by carbonartistmonked
Bara wrote:Then why do so many humans posess anthropomorphic tendencies to some extent or another? Wether it is sailors and boats, car buffs and their vehicles, basement dwelling internet geeks and their computers, or small kids with their favorite stuffed toy. :mrgreen:
I've heard people claim that humans are nothing but biological machines. (I disagree with that idea, but thats another topic.) So from that point of view isn't it a very small leap from the "biological human machine" to the "technological human machine"?

Just a train of semi-random thoughts started by this thread. :D
firstly, i dunno whats anthropomorphic :shock:
sorry
okay, got the def...

from my perspective of view
(nobody get angry, yeah?) :(
humans are a sort of perfect creature on earth
so, they have a perspective in their mind
a perspective that says, humans are perfect
because thats what they see and learn since birth
so, in that sense, whatever the humans try to make
they make it close to the form of human, perfect
like what you say, sailors with boats, car buffs and their skylines

if you dont understand
think it over this way
if you were to be born with your head on your ass
(sorry if anyone was offended) :(
and live in a world with their heads on their asses
(sorry to the world) :(
wouldnt you think you are perfect?

humans are humans
and yet we dont know
how we exist

NOBODY'S PERFECT :lol:

my friends think im crazy for this. agreed?

Re: Cybernetic implants

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:55 am
by Deimos
The only person who would definitely try to obtain such a technology would be Hisao. Unlike all the girls his disability is shortening his lifespan to a great extent and an advanced mechanical substitute would really improve his condition.

As many people have said before me in this thread Hanako would likely not lose many of her habits she has taken up after years. In fact, I think synthetic skin implants would still lead to a very similar future where she may find a romantic partner she will sleep with/interact with regardless whether she wears her implants or not.

The other girls could also be hesitant about such a technology although I imagine Shizune to be the most enthusiastic about it given that she can gain more independence. She would certainly not abandon Misha - real friendships (as opposed to the inflationary way the the word is used nowadays) do not end so easily.

The next girl I can think of who would be ecstatic would be Lilly. Considering her careful nature she would certainly not get any mechanical eyes of the first generation and wait for andvanced models with better quality and testing results. Nevertheless I doubt she would not take up the offer of sight when questioned.

Emi and Rin are tough to be thought of with mechanical artificial limbs. Emi's life would probably not change with such a technology therefore making it obsolete for her.
Rin would probably get these arms even if just for the heck of it. But I picture her losing her sometimes dreamlike view on the world while she is becoming more and more practical and aquainted with her newfound abilities. And anyone can decide for himself if he wold want to give part of himself up for life-enhancing devices. I doubt she would be happy with it at first.
Bara wrote: Then why do so many humans posess anthropomorphic tendencies to some extent or another? Wether it is sailors and boats, car buffs and their vehicles, basement dwelling internet geeks and their computers, or small kids with their favorite stuffed toy. :mrgreen:
I've heard people claim that humans are nothing but biological machines. (I disagree with that idea, but thats another topic.) So from that point of view isn't it a very small leap from the "biological human machine" to the "technological human machine"?

Just a train of semi-random thoughts started by this thread. :D
Think of it as one of the first steps towards the evolution that was proposed in the scifi-story "2001 odyssey in space". The aliens in this story were described as having shed their flesh for metal casing which made them live thousands of years and were then becoming some kind of strange radiotion which made them practically immortal and somehow (nearly) perfect.
carbonartistmonked wrote: firstly, i dunno whats anthropomorphic :shock:
sorry
okay, got the def...

from my perspective of view
(nobody get angry, yeah?) :(
humans are a sort of perfect creature on earth
so, they have a perspective in their mind
a perspective that says, humans are perfect
because thats what they see and learn since birth
so, in that sense, whatever the humans try to make
they make it close to the form of human, perfect
like what you say, sailors with boats, car buffs and their skylines

if you dont understand
think it over this way
if you were to be born with your head on your ass
(sorry if anyone was offended) :(
and live in a world with their heads on their asses
(sorry to the world) :(
wouldnt you think you are perfect?

humans are humans
and yet we dont know
how we exist

NOBODY'S PERFECT :lol:
I slightly disagree with you here. Mankind may be arrogant and its hubris may know very few bounds but we are far from considering ourselves perfect. We surely cosider ourselves superior to animals and probably certain other humans but the realm of perfection is something only religion can explore - for now.

The anthropomorphization is done to better identify ourselves with an object or to shower it with affection or other emotions - just like we anthropomorphize 2D pictures and text into people called Shizune, Rin, Emi, Hanako, Lilly or Misha. :wink:

Re: Cybernetic implants

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:06 am
by G3n0c1de
This can also be seen in many interpretations of aliens. These are imagined to by extremely similar to humans. A lot of them at bilaterally symmetrical, have cephalization, and have many physiological structures that are similar or downright the same as in humans. When people imagine aliens they are almost always incapable making them radically different. Hell a lot of aliens are even bipedal! Most of them have eyes, mouths, arms, and legs. All recognizable structures for the audience. An evolutionary standpoint says that the only way that two creatures are THIS similar is that there is a common ancestry. Which there is, technically, as these aliens were sprung up from human imaginations. It's as if they took a human, and changed only a few things around to make them 'alien' enough to warrant them as such. Of course with evolution, there is always a chance that alien life will evolve in such a way that makes them similar to us. But the probability of that is very slim. It is a classic physiological and psychological question as to the nature of alien life. And very few fictional works involving alien life actually succeed in making them seem 'alien' to us. But generally its not that we don't imagine alien life being especially dissimilar from us on purpose, its that we just can't. We imagine the way alien life works to be similar to ours because we only know how our way of life works. It is the only experience that we can draw from. We won't know how alien life works until we actually find some. Until then all we can do is imagine.

An intriguing counter to this is the question as to whether our way of life is the only way of life or not? Perhaps we have the reason thrived so well, and evolved this way, is because it is the best way to do so, and that the laws of biology and physics will be the same for other life, and will dictate that life as so. It's really up in the air, but it is an explanation as to why this may happen within a fictional work. I believe it was stated in one of the Mass Effect novels. Carbon-based, bipedal life, which breathed oxygen, had two eyes and a large brain among other things just simply had an edge over anything that evolved another way. Typing it out, it sounds like an excuse just to fill the plot, perhaps it is, but it is an interesting explanation. Again we will not know until we actually find alien life.

/rant