metalangel wrote:ProfAllister wrote:[
Even if Jigoro does not know sign language, he has been exposed to sign language enough (and has hired interpreters likely to explain) that he should be aware of two key details. 1) Interpreters repeat both sides of the conversation the parties exactly (or as exactly as possible, given translation). Any variation from what is actually said is a serious breach of trust. No cleaning up the language, no expressing the gist of what was said - the exact words (And you would be correct in noting that Misha does not do this). 2) Sign language is directed to the recipient by body language - primarily eye contact.
An interpreter conveys the meaning from one language and culture to the other. It's not a literal word for word translation because the syntax is completely different, but the intention and emotion behind what has been said is.
Neither Hisao nor MIsha are trained professionals so a lot of what should be conveyed across is probably lost.
I understand and agree. Perhaps saying "the exact words" was a little inaccurate. What I was getting at was that if a deaf person says "the fucking chair," it would be inappropriate for the interpreter to say "the chair." Also, I myself am not holding Hisao or Misha to that standard. The Misha parenthetical was simply to note that she doesn't follow that standard, since I felt someone would ask about it if I didn't mention it. As far as their training goes, it's obvious that Hisao isn't trained, but it's a little less clear for Misha, since she even says that she wants to be an interpreter. And, even if Misha were aware of the "rules," she'd also understand that they're relaxed a little when the deafie and the terp know each other well. My point was that Jigoro would most likely be aware of this standard, and, especially if he wanted to demean Hisao, he'd call Hisao out if Hisao failed to adhere to that standard.
The bigger issue that leads me to consider this possibility at all is the latter point - the intended recipient of the signing. Canonically, it is even emphasised that Shizune gets annoyed when people talk to Misha instead of to her, along with the fact that Misha does not interpret signing directed to her.
This does touch a bit on something that I've felt has been a bit of an elephant in the room for this discussion, though, and I feel it's only fair that this be addressed:
We don't know how much the writer (Anonymous22) knows about deafness, deaf culture, etc.
From a literary standpoint, that makes the whole thing even more fascinating, because everything seems to make sense for the person who knows nothing about those things. But it also seems to have a reasonable interpretation for someone who DOES have familiarity there. And from what little is available to the public about A22, he strikes me as the sort of person who may have blown off the research entirely and bullshitted his way through, but also may have gone through great efforts to get every detail right. There are several other instances in Shizune's route, for example, where he makes allusions to elements of Japanese culture that will pass the casual reader unnoticed, but add a deeper level of meaning to the informed and careful reader.
So what do?
Personally, I tend to subscribe to a literary theory which perhaps holds some relation to "the author is dead." What the author knew and his intent are nice, but they aren't intrinsic to the work. It's nice, because it allows a lens for interpreting the work and the reader can thus share in the author's thoughts, so to speak, but it is absurd to limit a work to the author. Under such a strict interpretation, a work in which we do not or cannot know the author's intent has no possible interpretation and therefore no value, because any interpretation would be plagued by the unanswerable question "but is this what the author intended?" On the other hand, the unknowable author allows the reader to consider all possible interpretations, because there is no "right" author-endorsed interpretation. Hence "the author is dead" - a dead author cannot provide the authoritative interpretation.
So I'd say that an interpretation is valid and acceptable so long as it can be sustained by the text itself (potentially alloyed with what we can reasonably assume the author would/would not know).
Therefore, my answer to the question of "Did A22 know about sign language, deaf culture, etc.?" is "It doesn't matter." If the text can support an interpretation in which the writer knew nothing, then that's a valid interpretation. If the text can support an interpretation in which the writer knew everything, then that is also a valid interpretation.
Similarly, I'm not saying that my interpretation is "right." I can argue how the text supports my interpretation, or how it does not seem to support other interpretations, but I'd say that's the whole point of discussing literature.
And, to pull a quote from the "
Favorite Artwork" thread that I felt was more appropriately discussed here...
Lianam wrote:I think the main reason people don't like Shizune is that that she doesn't change much as a character in her route (unless you get the bad ending). But the problem with that is that those people don't seem to get Shizune's route- the reason Shizune doesn't have so much character development is because her route (ironically) isn't about her; it's about Misha. Misha is the main focus of the route and most of the character development is from her: Shizune's route is more about the effects of the Hisao/Shizune relationship on Misha than it is on the actual relationship, or on the characters in said relationship.
God, I've been wanting to get that off my chest for awhile.
Now, I hope people don't mind me doing this, because this kind of shifts gears from Jigoro to Misha, but I certainly don't object to the Jigoro discussion being continued. It's not terribly difficult to sustain two different discussions under one thread.
Now, on the question of Shizune and character development, I think we need to dig down into that a little bit. "Character Development" is used to refer to three very different things 1) Introduction, 2) Revelation, and 3) Growth.
Introduction is the "first impression." For the main girls, it's covered in act 1. This is what gives you the shy and dependent Hanako, the oddball Rin, and the bossy/tsundere Shizune.
Revelation is when a new aspect of a character is well, revealed. We get Misha's affection for Shizune, Lilly's absent parents, and Emi's stubborn independence in that category.
Growth is a character changing from what he was. Unlike "revelation," growth has no real bearing on what came before. When a character undergoes a revelation, you view all the previous actions and events in a new light. When a character experiences growth, you can look back and see how the events led to their growth, but the events of the past are not changed in this reflection. Hisao experiences significant growth in all the routes (as that's kinda the point), while the girls also tend to go through some growth as well.
So why does Shizune seem to get so little "Character Development"? The Introduction is come and gone for her, but that's the case for all the girls, so it can't be that. So we have Revelation and Growth.
Shizune doesn't get much explicit revelation, in large part because she simply doesn't talk about herself much at all - she's always directed toward others (both positively and negatively). Most of her revelation comes in how she behaves, but they're little things, and a good portion of those revelations begin in Act 1. It's worth noting that you can't really discuss Shizune's route without touching on act 1. She gets a very strong introduction, and that's what you tend to see when you follow other routes. On the other hand, there are a good number of Shizune Route-exclusive (or included in Emi's Route via "Slow Recovery") which begin the process of revelation. This is part of the reason that Shizune's "ending" was so popular in the Act 1 demo. These sort of "quiet" revelations continue through the Post-Act 1 route as well, but they're somewhat understated after the initial Act 1 reveals.
But those aren't the only reveals Shizune gets. She also gets a lot that are tied to one of the more popular complaints about her route: it has too many characters. This is nonsensical, considering the number of characters juggled in what are widely considered to be great works (For example: Gandalf, Frodo, Samwise, Merry, Pippin, Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, Boromir). In fact, Shizune's route has three primary characters (Hisao, Shizune, Misha) and an assortment of secondary characters who, for the most part, get little more than cameos (Lilly, Akira, Hideaki, Jigoro, Aoi, Keiko, Kenji, Mutou, Yuuko, Nurse(?)). By comparison, Lilly's route has four primary characters (Hisao, Lilly, Akira, Hanako) and an assortment of secondary characters who, for the most part, get little more than cameos (Shizune, Misha, Hideaki, Rin, Emi, Othello, Kenji, Mutou, Yuuko, Nurse). That's right - Lilly's route has more characters, even when I cheat and give it the twofer of Aoi and Keiko. The actual objection is "there are a bunch of pointless introductions of characters that have no further relevance." Either that or they think Kenji gets too much screen time. But what characters get introductions with little follow-up? Akira, Hideaki, and Jigoro. Pair that with the revelation that Lilly and Shizune are cousins, and you get a common thread - they're all Shizune's family. Pull in Mutou's quantum physics lecture from Emi's Route and things become even more clear - these introductions serve the added purpose of being revelations related to Shizune. It's like a jigsaw puzzle - the pieces closest to a missing piece will tell you something about that piece.
And then we come to growth. This is what people tend to focus on because it's the most tangible. With a revelation, X is still X, but you know more about what X is. With growth, X is now Y. Did Shizune grow? Of course she did. At the beginning of the story, she had no direction - she was spinning her wheels (to mix metaphors). She was so caught up int he moment that she didn't even begin to think about what should come next. Before she entered Yamaku, becoming the Student Council President was her goal. Once she reached that goal, all she could think to do was "more." Everything needed to be bigger and better. And things can always get bigger and better. The whole conflict with Misha makes it clear to her that she's given no thought to the future. Misha's fear of the future is exhibited by her concerns of what comes after graduation. Shizune's fear of the future is exhibited by her refusal to even think about it. So Shizune comes up with the goal of becoming extremely rich and then being a philanthropist. It's overly ambitious, and a little unrealistic, but
that's the kind of person Shizune is. This gets people upset, because it feels like she didn't learn anything. They're missing the point. She didn't need to have a realistic plan, or one set toward an achievable goal - she simply needed a goal. People say a lot of stuff goes on in her route, but nothing actually happens (until Misha jumps into center stage), without realising that that's the point. The whole issue (at the center of just about every conflict in the story) is that Shizune has a lot of motion without any direction. And, by the end, she has the direction she needs.
But what about Misha? I'm glad you asked, me. Misha is the direction. She takes Shizune's motion and turns it toward lasting achievements. Shizune drags Hisao along to do "stuff," in the hopes that Hisao will join the student Council because it's so much fun. Misha is the one who actually does the hard sell, and thanks him for his help. Shizune is smitten by Hisao, and does "stuff" with him, in the hopes that Hisao will ask her out. Misha sees that Hisao is interested in Shizune and gives him the push to man up and ask her out. Shizune prepares to hold Student Council elections, because that's what the outgoing Student Council does. Misha tries to actually make the elections appealing, so people will participate. And then one interpretation (of many possible) of her propositioning Hisao is to again give Hisao a push (or a test), this time to take charge of the relationship. If Hisao is going to replace Misha, he needs to be able to give Shizune direction, and to do that, he needs direction himself. I don't really think I agree with that interpretation, but it's one that may be supportable by the text.
And the Shizune-Misha conflict also ties back to Shizune's lack of direction. Shizune sees that Misha is upset, and something must be done. She knows that Misha likes food, so her "master plan" is to give Misha lots of good food, to make her happy. Hisao takes the radical step of trying to figure out what's wrong, and cheer Misha up by addressing the underlying cause (in other words, he has a sense of direction when he tries to solve the problem). In the good ending, Shizune realises her lack of direction and takes steps to fix it. In the bad end, Shizune realises her lack of direction (and quite possibly takes steps to fix it), but realises that he directionlessness has caused both Hisao and Misha to drift away irretrievably.
As for Misha, what character development does she get? No introduction, obviously. One huge revelation (that's a bit of an infodump) and several smaller ones, all more or less directed to the implication that she's a lot more thoughtful and perceptive than she lets on.
As for growth, no so much there, either. Yeah, she likes Shizune, but is willing to let it go. Is that a new development, though? She says that she wants Shizune to be her girlfriend, but is that just a feeling, or a goal she's trying to attain? It seems odd that she'd be instrumental in getting Hisao and Shizune together if she didn't want them to be together. And why would it come to a head some time after they got back from vacation, rather than before or shortly after Hisao and Shizune get together? Add in the overall shift in focus toward the future that accompanies this conflict, and it's clear that that's the bigger concern, not the unrequited love. Add in the fact that Misha's reaction seems to be exactly the same in both the good end and the bad end, and I'd argue that Misha doesn't really have all that much growth on her part.
