Katawa Shoujo Forums

Selim Bradley wrote:

MegaMoto wrote:Can I also point out that Lilly also didn't tell Hanako her best friend. She didn't tell anyone which makes sense because it's obviously a hard decision. I will say I understand why she did it but I still don't agree with it.

Telling Hanako that she would be losing the only supporting pillar she has known the past few years would take time to word properly to minimize the reaction. I wouldn't want to be be told that until absolutely neccesary.

As a sidenote, there was that study on whether or not people would like to know the day they would die. 96% of people in the study said no. And while this is not the end of their life, it is the end of their life with Lilly so perhaps similar rules apply.

I do not think the same rules apply and really telling Hanako at the last second would be better ? Do you honestly thing having your "supporting pillar" as you put it taken away in an instant would be better. Let's out it this way if a man needs a cane to walk do you think it would be worse to tell him he can only use it for so long and needs to adapt or just to take it way while he's walking down the street.

MegaMoto wrote: I do not think the same rules apply and really telling Hanako at the last second would be better ? Do you honestly thing having your "supporting pillar" as you put it taken away in an instant would be better. Let's out it this way if a man needs a cane to walk do you think it would be worse to tell him he can only use it for so long and needs to adapt or just to take it way while he's walking down the street.

Probably not. just throwing that study out there as food for thought.

I never said "at the last second". I said until absolutely necessary. You don't tell a kid whose dog is about to pass away that fact until you have no other option, or else the kid will be sad that the dog is dying plus the sorrow from the actual passing. Your metaphor doesn't fully work since Hanako is getting better, as shown in her joining a club, and has Hisao for support. So to make your example more accurate you wait until the man with a cane is near something he can use in place of the cane, like a railing. The man will falter a bit but will not collapse on the ground.

Selim Bradley wrote:

MegaMoto wrote: I do not think the same rules apply and really telling Hanako at the last second would be better ? Do you honestly thing having your "supporting pillar" as you put it taken away in an instant would be better. Let's out it this way if a man needs a cane to walk do you think it would be worse to tell him he can only use it for so long and needs to adapt or just to take it way while he's walking down the street.

Probably not. just throwing that study out there as food for thought.

I never said "at the last second". I said until absolutely necessary. You don't tell a kid whose dog is about to pass away that fact until you have no other option, or else the kid will be sad that the dog is dying plus the sorrow from the actual passing. Your metaphor doesn't fully work since Hanako is getting better, as shown in her joining a club, and has Hisao for support. So to make your example more accurate you wait until the man with a cane is near something he can use in place of the cane, like a railing. The man will falter a bit but will not collapse on the ground.

Interesting point again as I mentioned before it all in the context. I would have personally preferred being told right away instead of being told last minute. Even if Lilly didn't know what she wanted to do she could have discussed it with you or not start the relationship at all because she went to Scotland first.

MegaMoto wrote:

Selim Bradley wrote:

MegaMoto wrote: I do not think the same rules apply and really telling Hanako at the last second would be better ? Do you honestly thing having your "supporting pillar" as you put it taken away in an instant would be better. Let's out it this way if a man needs a cane to walk do you think it would be worse to tell him he can only use it for so long and needs to adapt or just to take it way while he's walking down the street.

Probably not. just throwing that study out there as food for thought.

I never said "at the last second". I said until absolutely necessary. You don't tell a kid whose dog is about to pass away that fact until you have no other option, or else the kid will be sad that the dog is dying plus the sorrow from the actual passing. Your metaphor doesn't fully work since Hanako is getting better, as shown in her joining a club, and has Hisao for support. So to make your example more accurate you wait until the man with a cane is near something he can use in place of the cane, like a railing. The man will falter a bit but will not collapse on the ground.

Interesting point again as I mentioned before it all in the context. I would have personally preferred being told right away instead of being told last minute. Even if Lilly didn't know what she wanted to do she could have discussed it with you or not start the relationship at all because she went to Scotland first.

I agree. It all depends on personal mindsets. Some people would like to know as soon as possible so they could enjoy the time remaining as well as slowly prepare for what will happen once it ends. Other people would rather not know until necessary so they can enjoy the time together without constantly worrying what will happen once it ends. I think Hanako is of the second group so that may be why Lilly waited to discuss it with her friends. As for not starting a romance, that would be bad for Lilly since her feelings for Hisao would cause her to regret not at least trying. With acting on it, worst case they at least have a Clasabanca's "We will always have Paris" thing.

MegaMoto wrote:I do not think the same rules apply and really telling Hanako at the last second would be better ?

In the context of the story, yes. By the time Lilly tells her, Hanako has already grown beyond the need for that pillar. Telling her at the start would only initiate a downward spiral.

And even then, during the moment of parting itself, Hanako momentarily clings to Lilly and asks her if she really has to go, very obviously crushed. There's not much doubt that for Hanako's sake, it really was better not to immediately know of Lilly's situation. I don't think she'd have joined the newspaper club or given Lilly some space if she had known. She probably would have merely lapsed into a depression.

That is at best speculation.
In a storytelling sense it is probably, because this is the Lilly route, and Hanako's problems were not mean to be that much of a focus there. So Hanako would probably have been fine no matter what Lilly did.

That's Hanako for you. I can never tell when she's in a clingy mood, or in an "independent so don't cuddle me" mood.

YZQ wrote:That's Hanako for you. I can never tell when she's in a clingy mood, or in an "independent so don't cuddle me" mood.

I think she likes to lead people on. It all a game to her obviously.

Mirage_GSM wrote:That is at best speculation.
In a storytelling sense it is probably, because this is the Lilly route, and Hanako's problems were not mean to be that much of a focus there. So Hanako would probably have been fine no matter what Lilly did.

Even so, there are limits to what could be done with Hanako's reaction without breaking the suspension of disbelief.

Xanatos wrote:

MegaMoto wrote:I do not think the same rules apply and really telling Hanako at the last second would be better ?

In the context of the story, yes. By the time Lilly tells her, Hanako has already grown beyond the need for that pillar. Telling her at the start would only initiate a downward spiral.

That's no more than a hypothesis. It could be the case. However, the 'support' Lilly forms falling away might actively engage Hanako to to try and seek out new forms of support. This could be the 'drive' that gets her in the newspaper club.
And all this time, Lilly would still be there to actually help her if she needed it. As could Hisao.

I want to ask a question, i'm on the 'what if's' here, but i fear it might be deliberatly asking for one of Hanako's endings. Going for her route next week So please give me a heads up if it happens to be so, if you answer it that is
How would Hanako take it if Lilly kept to herelf until the very last moment and Hanako didn't end up in the newspaper club? How would she fare?

Intersting Selim. Though i also think the two events aren't so easily comparable. The gravity of actualy dieing still weighs a bit harder imo than losing the best friend you ever had. I wouldn't like to know when i'd die either, but i would like to know of a lifechanging event that would eventualy present itself. Why? because, just maybe, it might give me a chance to work around it, to change it, or perhaps just to accept it? I just don't like being kept in the dark i guess I don't like it when people do it to me, or to others.

How would Hanako take it if Lilly kept to herelf until the very last moment and Hanako didn't end up in the newspaper club? How would she fare?

You mean how would Hanako feel after Lilly's bad end w/o the club?
Terrible.

Don't worry, that question doesn't come up in Hanako's path.

To start out I enjoy the idea of Lilly's character immensely. However, for me the story is ruined by never (ok, rarely) having any meaningful connection between Hisao and Lilly. Lilly doesn't ever really let Hisao in besides letting him know that she is consumed with worry for him ( I did cry at the ending mind you ). As far as I'm concerned she keeps everything that doesn't directly pertain to others inside, and even much that does. That's my take on the story. Initially I looked over this and loved the arc and the pairing, but upon closer examination I find Lilly tenancies towards emotional distance, and refusal to confront others about issues, make the relationship incomplete at best, and at worse flat out deception.

All of you have raised good points concerning the issue of the summons, and I can forgive Lilly for her way of handling the situation, even if I don't agree with it. Heck, it even develops her character a bit. What I can't look past is, from my viewpoint, her double standard of wanting Hisao to open up to her, and her refusal to share her personal thoughts and emotions. Lilly's character is the one I would have most liked to have opened up and connect with in an arc, but I feel like she never actually does this, and when she makes a passable attempt, she quickly regresses into her formal bearing. I hesitate to call it a facade because she is constantly acting in this manner. I feel that Andre Berthiaume said it well: "We all wear masks, and the times comes when we cannot remove them without removing our own skin."

Just my thoughts on the matter. I may be overlooking some things in her character, as I have a tendency to skim over details, but that is my impression of her in the story. I feel like her being easily addicted to alcohol and loving sex was a bit closer to the real Lilly, but she doesn't actually talk about her feelings in this manner, or act that way in private conversation, so they feel very fake, or at least lies by omission instead of being honest.
(I personally found her eagerness rather off putting, and was kind of "why didn't you just ask Hisao to be the initiator"/"let him know what you want (in the emotional sense) and are thinking instead of making him guess" in the blindfold scene)

Your thoughts?

DalekKahn wrote:I find Lilly Hisao's tenancies towards emotional distance, and refusal to confront others about issues, make the relationship incomplete at best, and at worse flat out deception.

Fixed.

Xanatos wrote:

DalekKahn wrote:I find Lilly Hisao's tenancies towards emotional distance, and refusal to confront others about issues, make the relationship incomplete at best, and at worse flat out deception.

Fixed.

That's a bit of an obnoxious thing to do, especially when you're wrong.

What Hisao does in Lilly's route hardly counts as deception, especially compared to what she does.