I love a good debate, and I am enjoying this a lot. Guest poster, you just give me a good reason to tune-in in this topic much longer--I thank you for that.
Now then...time to load new ammo and set-up defenses. I'm guessing--considering the previous posters--that I have very much shattered many rose-tinted glasses with my analysis, and I'll take that as a complement.
We are outnumbered, but we certainly aren't outgunned.
Guest Poster, register. I like to see the name and avatar of who I'm debating against!
...
Wow, their rivalry in game is as fierce as it is portrayed in this forum.
This ought to be interesting
Before I start, I'll reply to this:
rydiafan wrote:Is it possible to be a fan of both ?? are there ppl who like both Lilly and Shizune ... or does everyone love one and hate the other ( like me lol )
Possible. I don't exactly
hate Lilly, but I do have more bias towards Shizune. Still, that doesn't stop me from analyzing both characters to the brink of exhaustion--of course, I admit, with the bias I have over Shizune I tend to overlook her flaws (although that doesn't stop me from returning to read her route again and peel her character even further.). Now Lilly do have her good points, and I do see it first-time reading her arc; but then again, I start to think this:
"There must be more about her"
Just like how I dig Shizune, I'll dig Lilly as well. I'll get to this point later--neutrality is a rare commodity in this page.
Firstly...
Guest Poster wrote:You make an excellent point about both Shizune and Lilly and yet you kinda word it in a very awkward manner that kinda makes it sound like Shizune is the love interest for smart people, which sounds kinda condescending and elitist.
Woopsie, never meant that. Got caught up in the moment
Guest Poster wrote:Maybe I should elaborate with my interpretation:
That is true, and I respect that interpretation/view.
If I were to roughly summarize, one thinks with the brain while the other thinks with emotions.
Both works to a certain extent, but often collides with one another; the former maybe the wiser and the lease popular choice, while the other is its contrast.
True, I agree to that.
Guest Poster wrote:Likewise, Shizune doesn't really discuss her family either and she's been around them far more.
Not true. In Shizune's route you're given the chance to directly meet her
entire--Lilly and Akira included. In the beginning of ACT III (or is it the end of ACT II?), Hisao was invited to spend the week in Shizune's house. With accordance to customs in Asia (not sure if this applies in the west), introducing one's lover to the head of the family member is a way of 'accepting' someone into the family. Shizune mentions often how 'actions speak louder than words', and this is her way of telling Hisao 'this is my family. They are weird as you can see, but you'll understand them...somehow'. This is her "action", her way of telling him about her family--words aren't necessary at this point; you met them directly, and how much you learn about her family, relations, and Shizune herself weighs on how much your focus level in the ARC and the next--the subtle changes of the character, what happens after, responses, etc. Hell, you can learn a lot about Jigoro alone and how his actions/responses translates into Shizune. Hideaki alone have some pointers that allows you to learn more about her--he's not just some reverse-trap placed conveniently in the middle of the story for some humor like Jigoro is often depicted as a joke character.
One of the best way to learn about your partner/girlfriend is to learn about their family, and then learn about her
through them.
Again, there's more to her than meets the eye.
Guest Poster wrote:In reality, someone from a strict upbringing showing strong sexual urges after being let out into the world really is no contradiction whatsoever. Teen pregnancies tend to be highest among the teens who took so-called "chastity vows".
A good look into reality, and I agree with that. I stand corrected.
Guest Poster wrote:She did finish it in time AND in top-notch quality, she just didn't finish with any time remaining. In Lilly's defense, her class' plans were extremely ambitious, too much so in retrospect. She admits later the class underestimated the workload.
True, but not quite. In Shizune's defense, Lilly asked for an extension for her project--which was granted--and even then it takes Shizune's extra-pressure for her to submit it on-time. Looking through the lens of the original timeline for the project, Lilly had went overtime (and as quoted from you, she admits how 'her class underestimated the workload') and responsibility of this fell solely on her--the class representative. Not to mention, it is on budget reports and paperwork that could've been handled a few days beforehand. (do note that she is the
last person that is required to hand in the paperwork--all others are complete. Procrastination?)
However, I missed the hint of it being 'top-notch quality' in my reread so if you don't mind to direct me to that point, I'll very much appreciate it.
Guest Poster wrote:Also, Hanako's not a ticking timebomb. She only snaps at Hisao after he visits her at the worst possible time and says the worst possible things to her at this worst possible time. And even then, she stops her outburst the moment he's out of the room.
This is not the 'ticking timebomb' I meant her to be. Notice how Hanako often leaves the class and was entirely ignored? What legitimate reason does she have to be able to walk out of class without a single protest from the teacher? Her 'timebomb' isn't her outburst of anger she expressed towards Hisao--that's his stupidity paired with a 'white-knight' blindfold which led him into stepping on a turd-covered landmine. What I meant about her 'ticking timebomb' is her fragile mentality which broke down after an 'x' amount of social pressure (Hanako's ACT III, classroom, group project).
Considering how no one from the class dared to approach her (until she approach them herself in Lilly's arc), I can assume she had more than one of those 'explosions' in her time with the class. This is the 'ticking timebomb' I meant.
Guest Poster wrote:Lilly's very much like Emi...a person who sometimes smiles when she's not feeling cheerful in order to avoid making people worry about them. It's something a lot of people do...PARTICULARLY IN JAPAN and isn't a sign of a manipulative personality.
No, that is not the manipulative personality I am talking about--or what appealed to my argument. I'll get to this later on
Guest Poster wrote:Look, I realize you prefer Shizune over Lilly and that's fine. I'll even agree with you that Shizune is somewhat underrated and Lilly is somewhat overrated. But you're starting to sound a bit too much like Kenji with the Lilly analysis.
I AM KENJI...!!!
well, jokes aside...
I see you prefer Lilly over Shizune, and that's fine. I respect that.
Now before I answer most of your replies, I'll tell you how I came up with that 'Kenji-esque' theoretical analysis. There are a number of different lenses anyone can use on analyzing a character:
-Character's Lens
-Author's Lens
-Reader's Lens
-Plot Lens
-Subplot Lens
And much more; these are just the basics.
True, it is safe to assume that all characters are written with a 'good nature' or a 'good heart' by the author. But is this really everything? When a character is believed to be 'x', then there's always something that is often overlooked which could potentially spawn the 'y' answer. You see where I'm going with this?
I am a revisionist, and when people see Lilly as the 'Yamato Nadeshiko'-saint/beauty/best-girl-in-game/etc., then I'll explore the reasons how she is depicted as such and try to analyze it past the common view--the 'y', as I call them. So you see, it's not really a 'Kenji-esque' argument without background/base (if it is I'll say 'Lilly is a space-alien a la the movie 'Species'). I have them, and I'll lay them down like a futon over a tatami mat below.
>>Lilly as unreliable<<
This assumption comes in as a package with her blindness. Before you come up with 'hey that is so not true', listen to my argument. Most basic, daily tasks requires five basic senses of man: sight, hearing, touch, taste, smell. Just like Shizune lost one of these vital senses (hearing), Lilly lost one of these (sight). In Shizune's case, the lost of hearing is covered by Misha acting as her 'ears' in most involvement and--in later part--Hisao. Lilly's case is covered by a heightened sense of touch, hearing, and smell. This is laid out, and is a given (the game is called KS for a reason).
Now, throughout her arc Lilly mentions how she often relies on Akira or Hisao to act as her 'eyes' and despite of this she often reminds Hisao not to bring up their disability in play--this leads into this argument:
Lilly does not wish to be seen as a burden.
So let me rephrase 'unreliable'. It isn't because she is "unreliable" in the eyes of her friends and classmates, but it is because she
feels to be so--a burden. Add procrastination into one of her negative quirk, her need to pass the paperwork to someone else who can read the printouts and finish the job (ACT I), and her inability to see what is around her to assist her in basic tasks such as buying presents, finding shops, traveling, etc. Often, she would downplay this issue of hers and would bring it up at the last-minute--or when it is pressed on to her. Why doesn't she bring it up with others? This leads to two answers and IMO both are legit:
-Lilly doesn't want to trouble others (the 'x' view, the 'i sacrifice myself' kind of argument)
-Lilly doesn't want to be seen as 'trouble' (the 'y' view)
Then add the fact that in ACT III (or was it IV?) Akira told Hisao about their relationship with their parents and how they couldn't take Lilly because she was blind. It's not entirely negligible, the possibility exists that she
feels she is a burden. Not just to her sister, I am assuming this falls to
all people that she knew. In order to overcome that feeling, she steps up her character so others would
rely on her making her
reliable. Lilly's role assumes so as it is portrayed:
-Lilly's an ex-student council member
-Her acting as Hanako's mental support/white knight
-The point above also applies to Hisao to some extent
-Her position as class representative.
This changes the perception of others into seeing her as 'reliable' instead as a 'burden' just how her parents originally did (which could possibly point to the origin where she feels she is a burden). This argument led me to believe that her approach was to make her 'feel good' about herself; to feel reliable in contrast to what her parents originally see her as--although not heavily implied, I'll rephrase that
this is a theory. This leads me to my other argument:
>>Manipulative Lilly<<
This is probably what shattered most of your rose-tinted glasses and again I'll rephrase that
this is a theory. Originally I became suspicious of her white-knighting and constant chivalrous character; the idea of her being the reliable individual to overcome that 'burden' she thought that she is equates to her trying to 'make herself feel good' about it by having that status. Again, let me rephrase that
this is a theory--like The Big Bang, there is no possible way to determine that is what actually happened but the possibility that it does
exists. My look on her being friends of Hanako and Hisao could hold a candle on its own, but this argument:
Guest Poster wrote:Coincidence, somewhat. Lilly moved into the room next to Hanako's about a year before Hisao started attending and Hanako overheard Lilly offering comfort to a classmate who was feeling down. Needing some comfort herself, Hanako approached Lilly soon after, though at first, it was really merely Lilly talking and Hanako just sitting there and merely listening and drinking tea. It took her some time to open up to Lilly a bit.
Removes that shade of grey, which means it can be ruled out. This is the answer I'm looking for. Thanks, that gave some light into her character.
I stand corrected, thank you.
Which scene is this from? If I'm guessing this is taken from Lilly's arc, ACT II--not sure which.
You see where I'm going with this? She is depicted as an empath, yes, and that leads to her motherly nature, true, but is she doing this because of her
own accord, or is it because she--having her parents who is supposed to be her support treat her as a burden--wants to make herself feel 'reliable' to avoid being a 'burden' (this is where manipulation, facade, and masks came to mind). I'm not saying she's "running around with a Death Note in hand", more like she's doing this for her personal benefit/gain for her goal to appeal differently than what she is originally seen as by her parents. This is my point on stating why she can be considered to be manipulative.
This leads me to another point: Looks and mannerism.
Of all the characters, Lilly is someone who cared more about her looks, appeal, and impressions more than any others (e.g. ACT I, tea room, 'Cold War' on Lilly entering class). A good first-impression, appeal, and looks would lasts longer in someone's mind, and considering her lack of sight I find this quite interesting on 'why'. I might look into this a bit further, but my initial guess is that it came from her upbringing as a Catholic schoolgirl--nonetheless, it does gave you an impression that she is 'reliable', which lead to my previous point.
Guest Poster wrote:Lilly herself states money isn't a problem...she gets a pretty large allowance apparantly.
Lilly WAS conflicted, even at the time Akira approached Hisao. Not conflicted enough to have a change of heart of her own, but conflicted enough to change her mind if Hisao had challenged her decision. In fact, it's possible this was what Akira expected Hisao to do and that's why she called him. But Hisao had become too used to letting Lilly handle everything, so he went along with her decision without arguing with her. After Lilly left, Hisao realized that this was his mistake and that he should have been more persistent in supporting her when she obviously needed it.
This is a valid argument, and I respect that. Legit, in support of her character in the 'x' view (see what I mean by 'x' above).
This, however, does not answer question or give the reason why Lilly refused (or delayed) to tell Hisao the truth about her permanent leave to Scotland. Again it either revolves around her ever-so-popular-procrastination or her not wanting to lose 'face' as that reliable individual. Note, she has more than enough time to confront Hisao about it but never did so until she is pestered for it. Here's a thought, if Akira does not tell Hisao would Lilly do so, or would she 'pocket-vetoed' it and disappear? After reading through previous posts and yours, how I see it, there's a chance that she will tell him (at a very-very late date) because:
-she's afraid of hurting him ('x' view)
-she was never conflicted and had made her decision, but procrastinates to get it done ('y' view)
I, for one, believe in that she was never conflicted (or had it resolved) before Akira told Hisao about their leave and procrastinates on telling his boyfriend about it. However, I do agree that part of her wants to stay in Japan rather than permanently fly to Scotland to see her family. Money may not be a problem as she mentioned in ACTII when she bought Hanako's gift, but this is small when you compare it with an airline ticket that would have cost more; I don't think their parents would be pleased if she wasted them as if money grows on trees.
again, these are theories.
btw, Guest Poster, if we could actually meet someday I'll buy you a beer and we can debate about this all day. I had fun
Wish I could post more, but it's really late here and I need my sleep so here's my last reply:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:Guest Poster wrote:Megumeru wrote:(shameful Lilly slandering and Kenji-esque conspiracy theories)
(voice of reason)
Thanks, Guest Poster, whoever you might be. Saved me a lot of trouble, coming to Lilly's defense like that. I'll just say that once you start treating a character like an Iago archetype, where you can't trust him or (in this case) her in any way, and begin searching for hidden meanings and intentions behind every spoken word and action, in your head you can turn
any character into an evil, Kira-esque, Chessmaster-level manipulator. I'll add just one more thing:
Megumeru wrote:Manipulative. That's a pretty 'popular' trait she is recognized with, is it? True, she is manipulative--but is it because she is, or is it because she is just playful? If she is that manipulative, she wouldn't have that game after Shanghai where she bets Hisao about 'going back to Yamaku the fastest'. So I say again, is she really manipulative or just damn playful? if she is playful then--ladies and gents--you just realized that this is her way of expressing herself to Hisao. This includes their scene in the roof with Hisao, the chess scene, the banter Hisao and Shizune exchange in the student council office, and much-much more that I may not remember.
You can argue about Shizune's good intentions and her "playful" nature all day, but her manipulativeness is brought up
constantly throughout the arc. How she "brings people close" and then "keeps them at arm's length" and what have you, especially with regard to Misha's role as friend and interpreter and rejected lover. It's true that playfulness might be behind some of her antics with Hisao (and even Misha - see Event Horizon, when Shicchan goes out to get some beverages without consulting Misha on what she would want, and comes back with something for her anyway), but that doesn't alter the fact that
she is manipulative, whether it's conscious or otherwise.
Shicchan wrote:I put Misha through a lot, and even dragged you into it.
Shicchan wrote:...since all I've done is mess with Misha for two years. And jerk you around for a year for selfish reasons.
Shicchan wrote:The point is that I've messed up so many people by being selfish, and now I want to be away from other people for a while.
Another look at Terminal confirms that she does become aware of the consequences of her actions, even if it's still nebulous as to whether they were deliberate manipulations or just the results of her "playful" nature. To be fair, it could also just be her being miserable and putting the worst possible spin on what has unfolded. Depends on how you read it.
Well, let's be fair here, pal. Neither Lilly nor Shicchan are perfect human beings. True, Lilly withheld news of the summons from Hisao, but on the other hand, Shizune is a borderline sociopath who thinks of people as obstacles and can't interact with them normally.
just to note, Mysterious Stranger, you hiding behind Guest Poster on Lilly's defense does not make you any better. In fact, I think I'll shoot these down before I sleep...
You can argue about Shizune's good intentions and her "playful" nature all day, but her manipulativeness is brought up constantly throughout the arc. How she "brings people close" and then "keeps them at arm's length" and what have you, especially with regard to Misha's role as friend and interpreter and rejected lover. It's true that playfulness might be behind some of her antics with Hisao (and even Misha - see Event Horizon, when Shicchan goes out to get some beverages without consulting Misha on what she would want, and comes back with something for her anyway), but that doesn't alter the fact that she is manipulative, whether it's conscious or otherwise.
Have you re-read Terminal? I'm questioning your definition of 'manipulative' as much as you questioning my take on Lilly being a "kira-level manipulator". As much as it hurts me to re-read the scene again for the umpteenth time, her description:
Shicchan wrote:I put Misha through a lot, and even dragged you into it.
Shicchan wrote:...since all I've done is mess with Misha for two years. And jerk you around for a year for selfish reasons.
Shicchan wrote:The point is that I've messed up so many people by being selfish, and now I want to be away from other people for a while.
is attributed to her original competitive nature. She gave a brief explanation about hot it is attributed to such with her description of her time making posters for Earth Day. It is true, she brings people close and keeps them at arms length due to her own lack of capability to connect with the people around her (this is attributed to her disability: deafness) in a world where 'language' and 'voice' is the commodity for everyone to link and relate with one another. Her deafness and her 'language' isolated her from the rest of the world.
Thing is, she is
unable to connect with the world around her. Lilly's increased senses on touch, smell, taste, and hearing allows her to connect with the world around her despite not being able to see. Shizune, on the other hand, sees the world like a moving picture with no sound--try this, watch a movie without subtitles and sound and see if you can actually relate/connect with the character. Now try doing the same thing with sound and a turned-off TV and see which one you can connect with the most.
This leads to the question whether or not she manipulates, or it is her competitive nature and drive that drags people around. Drive, you say? Competitive nature, you say? Here's a thought:
Ever considered how she set her own goals and wanted to overcome it no matter what (she also mentioned: there's always better people out there)? This is her competitive nature.
Ever considered the idea how she
wanted people that are close to her to understand and stand at similar footing with her? This is her drive.
Her disability prevented her from connecting with the world around her; she is isolated not because by choice, but by
force of nature. Despite her competitive nature to be at the top, she
wanted to show them and share that achievement, joy, and most importantly her
world with the people that are close to her (Hisao, ACT II, the booth stands they built). She was alone for the past 18 years, and having someone who could understand you and speak your same language makes you want to share the world you lived in (try this for a size: fly to China--hell, to any country you're not linguistically familiar--solo, and see how isolated you are for not being able to understand or speak to any of them). This is Shizune.
And you say she's a rapist? At least better than a procrastinating liar.
