Katawa Shoujo Forums

Dr. Robotnik wrote:Cheating is bad, yes, but genuinely caring for another individual =/= cheating. They could have easily let you actually comfort Misha, but instead they either made you do something that they wanted you to regret (nice try), or shoo her away like you don't give a fuck. I know it's Shizune's path, but you can give a shit about other people without being a monster.

True, but in real life, or at least in my life, it was exactly how one is lured in a situation like this.

Then stop them or something, I guess. My point was that they heavily discouraged you from caring about her in any way other than as a plot point, and that's wrong.

Dr. Robotnik wrote:Then stop them or something, I guess. My point was that they heavily discouraged you from caring about her in any way other than as a plot point, and that's wrong.

Well, see here.

You're playing in the perspective of Hisao Nakai. Not your best friend's perspective, not not your pet dog's perspective, and not your perspective either; it's Hisao Nakai's perspective. In that scene alone, it is plainly obvious and 'given' that comforting Misha would lead to 'that' (think about it. A boy and a girl alone in a room, the girl pushes the boy down to his bed then ask him to comfort her--that hints somewhere)

The trick is wit the 'selection' and how hard it is you read it. At this point, Misha is as broken and depressed like a girl who lost her pet dog due to an accident and was willing to throw herself away to have it back. It plays heavily on your psychological state--will listening to her actually 'comfort' her, or make things worse? Hisao did comforted Misha--but not in the way of the body in ActIV, rooftop following "look ahead".

Heck, the scene's title alone gave away a lot of details. "Look ahead" and "Look aside" carries quite a heavy interpretation as it is.

I get that you're doing this from Hisao's perspective, which actually makes this form of "comforting" even weirder, since he obviously has zero sexual attraction to Misha. That's the logic I was going by, anyway. But, still, the rest of the Misha parts were pretty much just telling her to stop being depressed, which is completely and absolutely the wrong way to treat a person with depression. At no point in the game do you actually put any effort into helping her, you only push the real her back in her shell.

Dr. Robotnik wrote:I get that you're doing this from Hisao's perspective, which actually makes this form of "comforting" even weirder, since he obviously has zero sexual attraction to Misha. That's the logic I was going by, anyway. But, still, the rest of the Misha parts were pretty much just telling her to stop being depressed, which is completely and absolutely the wrong way to treat a person with depression. At no point in the game do you actually put any effort into helping her, you only push the real her back in her shell.

We're talking about Hisao here. The person who's not me, not you, and especially not god-tier Katsuragi Keima who conquered 100+ girls with relative ease.

With that in consideration, think about your regular healthy young-male hormones. A girl pushed you into bed, and whether or not you have sexual attractions to her as long as 'johnny' got served I don't think anyone would care. The term "comforting" in that point of time is very-very misleading if you don't read what lead to it carefully. First off, Hisao lives in a male dormitory--that is a given in ACT I.

Now this is the order of the events (by memory):
1. Misha comes by your door--a BOYS ONLY dorm for that matter.
2. She went into your room and closed the door. This room is yours, and anything that happens here stays in here.
3. she pushed you to the bed and kiss you.

Now if you're a healthy young male who hit puberty, little 'johnny' down there will get excited regardless you have sexual attractions or not. So, as relegated with the chapter of the story, 'Look Aside'--you're in relation with someone else? Look Aside and enjoy it. Misha's offering herself to you because she's depressed? Look Aside and enjoy the ride. Even knowing that doing so would pretty much crush her--even ruin the friendship between you, Misha, and Shizune? Look Aside and take the moment. It actually makes Hisao more of a scumbag than a friend when you think about it.

And is there any other better alternative than to tell her "hey let's try to get it back together again just like old times"? Shizune tried to pull a picnic between the three of them so they could get back together again--that didn't work. Doing anything else has some potential to cause her to distance herself away from you, and that made things worse. I've been in this situation before, and let me tell you comforting someone with words and actions is harder than what it was often made to be. People ain't just gonna' smile the moment you give them gifts that say 'let's get back together again' or 'i'm sorry'; if they're that depressed they'll just ditch it somewhere and keep that act.

Honestly, I can't see any way better to comfort Misha than to tell her "Misha, this is wrong. You pushing me and selling yourself to me because you're depressed is wrong; this isn't like you at all" is the best move Hisao pulled in that scene. I tipped my hat off to him for containing himself and not give in to his desire (with the help of 'God's hand' of course ). If I was in that situation, I would've done the same thing Hisao would do and tell here to 'Look Ahead' and see the consequences this might brought upon you--upon us.

Megumeru wrote:Honestly, I can't see any way better to comfort Misha than to tell her "Misha, this is wrong. You pushing me and selling yourself to me because you're depressed is wrong; this isn't like you at all" is the best move Hisao pulled in that scene. I tipped my hat off to him for containing himself and not give in to his desire (with the help of 'God's hand' of course ). If I was in that situation, I would've done the same thing Hisao would do and tell here to 'Look Ahead' and see the consequences this might brought upon you--upon us.

Only thing I would take issue with is that Hisao doesn't really say any of that explicitly, at least in Tongue-Tied. He just says "no," collapses onto the bed, exchanges a few more noncommittal words, and stays there until Misha leaves. Still, as you say, pretty admirable of him.

Tongue-Tied wrote:I guess that I should say more to reassure her, but I wonder if that would really help. Maybe it would be better to say nothing. I just don't know, although I think that in this situation, there's no one right thing I can do.

Dr. Robotnik wrote:I get that you're doing this from Hisao's perspective, which actually makes this form of "comforting" even weirder, since he obviously has zero sexual attraction to Misha.

Actually Hisao states several times that Misha is cute, and he evens mulls over the possibility at least once (probably more) about asking her out. So there is definatley an attraction there. The attraction is mutual, as Misha flirts back and forth with Hasio, even when not acting as Shizune's mouth piece.

Kids are kids, and where there is a spark it is easy to make a fire.

Can you be more specific about what you saw as flirting?

Megumeru wrote: We're talking about Hisao here. The person who's not me, not you, and especially not god-tier Katsuragi Keima who conquered 100+ girls with relative ease.

With that in consideration, think about your regular healthy young-male hormones. A girl pushed you into bed, and whether or not you have sexual attractions to her as long as 'johnny' got served I don't think anyone would care.

You're completely ignoring the fact that this is your girlfriend's best friend. And please don't use the "we're talking about Hisao" cop-out anymore; I hate that fucker more than the next guy, but even I can say that he's not that big of a sleazeball. I'm going to cut out the giant chunk in the middle where you basically just say this but five times as long.

Megumeru wrote: And is there any other better alternative than to tell her "hey let's try to get it back together again just like old times"? Shizune tried to pull a picnic between the three of them so they could get back together again--that didn't work.

Ooh, a picnic, that must've taken so much effort. Probably about as much as constantly torturing yourself and living a lie for years just to stay friends with the person you love. Seriously, though, she did all that just to stay friends with her, and those two retards put almost no effort into helping or even comforting their severely depressed friend. Maybe Misha should've befriended Lilly instead, since she actually gives a damn.

Megumeru wrote:Doing anything else has some potential to cause her to distance herself away from you, and that made things worse. I've been in this situation before, and let me tell you comforting someone with words and actions is harder than what it was often made to be. People ain't just gonna' smile the moment you give them gifts that say 'let's get back together again' or 'i'm sorry'; if they're that depressed they'll just ditch it somewhere and keep that act.

Yes, thank you for explaining why the picnic did nothing. And, to your point about there being no better alternative; bull-fucking-shit. They could've at least tried to get to know the real her instead of forcing her back into her shell. Depression is tough, I know, and having people you love be there for you is a huge help.

Megumeru wrote:Honestly, I can't see any way better to comfort Misha than to tell her "Misha, this is wrong. You pushing me and selling yourself to me because you're depressed is wrong; this isn't like you at all" is the best move Hisao pulled in that scene. I tipped my hat off to him for containing himself and not give in to his desire (with the help of 'God's hand' of course ). If I was in that situation, I would've done the same thing Hisao would do and tell here to 'Look Ahead' and see the consequences this might brought upon you--upon us.

How about, after telling her that, letting her vent and talk it out? She's obviously in pain and she came to you, the least you could do is show you care.

This is getting extremely retarded. My point was never that Misha did not intend to ride Hisao's cock, it was never that Hisao was above something like that, and it was never about any of this shit that you're arguing about now. My point was, is, and always will be that it was wrong of them to only give you the option of shoving her out or cheating on Shizune. There was no "I actually give a shit about this girl and want to help her, so I'll sit down with her and talk". Never. The only part in the story where that did happen was Hisao basically just telling her to stop being depressed because he liked the fake her better. That is my qualm, not all this retarded bullshit.

nemz wrote:Can you be more specific about what you saw as flirting?

Well, right off, she dubs him as "Hicchan", which is a pretty intimate way to address someone. She doesn't use that form with anyone else except Shizune. so from the start, she marks him as someone special to her.

Basically anytime that they banter about the student council, Misha's stock reply is "don't you want to spend some time with two cute girls?" And any time that the girls want to get together with him for lunch or to go out, whenever Hisao expresses doubt regarding an ulterior motive, Misha is quick with the "maybe we just want to be with you" reply, which is always from her and not as a translation from Shizune.

In Act 1 "throwing balls" there are more instances that I can count. Off the top of my head, when Misha and Shizune get him at his dorm room, Misha says "But we need you!" Then she rubs it in and teases him as he squirms and tries to make sense of what she means. Shizune acts a little confused too, indicating that this is Misha's game, not hers this time. Then Misha initiates physical contact by grabbing his hand. At this point Shizune is actually blushing at Misha's actions, and Hisao is not actually fighting her off. Later in the scene she places her hand on his shoulder and gives him her "best cute look", which Hisao admits is pretty cute. Shizune actually gets mad and tells Misha to stop it. Further on, at the ball toss stall, he gets it in stereo from both girls, as they tease him about his prize. Misha makes it a point to let him know as well when it is herself talking and when she is speaking for Shizune. And lastly, when his heart acts up, Misha again is the one to place a hand on his shoulder, and she covers for him by telling Shizune that she is tired and needs a break.

There is a lot more, both in that scene and elsewhere in the following and parallel acts, but she tends to back off a bit when she realizes that Hisao is leaning more towards Shizune then herself. People can read what they want into things, but it was clear to me that she enjoyed being around him (especially early on), and had no problem playing with him and being close to him (including physically). When a girl gives you that kind of attention, I call it flirting

I think I just brushed all that off as Misha being Misha, honestly. I didn't get the feeling that this exuberance was anything specific to Hisao at all.

nemz wrote:I think I just brushed all that off as Misha being Misha, honestly. I didn't get the feeling that this exuberance was anything specific to Hisao at all.

Well, like any piece of art, people see what they want to see in it. KS is nice in that there is a lot to see and there are many ways of doing so.

What is nice is that in one of the last lines in "throwing balls", Hisao looks over at both girls and wonders if he should date one girl, or the other. If Misha had not fallen asleep at that point and allowed Shizune to capture Hisao's attention, then maybe Misha would have had the arc instead

ravenlord wrote:What is nice is that in one of the last lines in "throwing balls", Hisao looks over at both girls and wonders if he should date one girl, or the other. If Misha had not fallen asleep at that point and allowed Shizune to capture Hisao's attention, then maybe Misha would have had the arc instead

Oh good Christ, if only, IF ONLY!

ravenlord wrote:

nemz wrote:Can you be more specific about what you saw as flirting?

Well, right off, she dubs him as "Hicchan", which is a pretty intimate way to address someone. She doesn't use that form with anyone else except Shizune. so from the start, she marks him as someone special to her.

Basically anytime that they banter about the student council, Misha's stock reply is "don't you want to spend some time with two cute girls?" And any time that the girls want to get together with him for lunch or to go out, whenever Hisao expresses doubt regarding an ulterior motive, Misha is quick with the "maybe we just want to be with you" reply, which is always from her and not as a translation from Shizune.

In Act 1 "throwing balls" there are more instances that I can count. Off the top of my head, when Misha and Shizune get him at his dorm room, Misha says "But we need you!" Then she rubs it in and teases him as he squirms and tries to make sense of what she means. Shizune acts a little confused too, indicating that this is Misha's game, not hers this time. Then Misha initiates physical contact by grabbing his hand. At this point Shizune is actually blushing at Misha's actions, and Hisao is not actually fighting her off. Later in the scene she places her hand on his shoulder and gives him her "best cute look", which Hisao admits is pretty cute. Shizune actually gets mad and tells Misha to stop it. Further on, at the ball toss stall, he gets it in stereo from both girls, as they tease him about his prize. Misha makes it a point to let him know as well when it is herself talking and when she is speaking for Shizune. And lastly, when his heart acts up, Misha again is the one to place a hand on his shoulder, and she covers for him by telling Shizune that she is tired and needs a break.

There is a lot more, both in that scene and elsewhere in the following and parallel acts, but she tends to back off a bit when she realizes that Hisao is leaning more towards Shizune then herself. People can read what they want into things, but it was clear to me that she enjoyed being around him (especially early on), and had no problem playing with him and being close to him (including physically). When a girl gives you that kind of attention, I call it flirting

I call it flirting myself. What we need to stop and think about is whether she was flirting for herself or flirting because she was Shizune's mouthpeice and knew that Shizune really had to idea how to relate to people emmotionally enough to be able to flirt on her own.

well now I guess I have an excuse to play through it again.