Katawa Shoujo Forums

Archimedes wrote:

Xanatos wrote:Spite is petty. Spite is childish. Spite is cruel. Guess who is completely capable of petty, childish cruelty? Humans in general, but especially children. A far better question would be how isn't it plausible, especially considering even the grown Shizune shows she is not above spite and grudges?

Yep, a child that exclude her father out of stubbornness and spite for the rest of her life - Seems absolute legit and plausible.

It is very plausible. The only reason it's not more widely known is because it's not talked about as much.
Unless you get into child stars, but that's a whole other ballgame.

But as it's been pointed out: Shizune is very much so her father's daughter. Stubbornness, thick-headed? Yup.

Justice is due consequence for all actions, period. No country on Earth has real justice, mostly because people can't stomach dealing out what's deserved. But that's an entirely different topic. You kinda failed to actually say anything with that though...

If you truly have that black and white a worldview, you either have a large amount of shares in the detention industry or you're Light Yagami.

From the words alone, no, it's not obvious. Refer back to my comment about how there's much more than just the words in actual communication. If we're generous to Hisao, he spoke normally and Jigoro was actively looking to take offense. If we're generous to Jigoro, Hisao was being a smartass (and possibly knew exactly what he was doing).

Personally I'm more inclined to give Hisao the benefit of the doubt since we learn quite a bit about Hisao over the course of the VN and he doesn't really have the habit of being bratty towards adults. Jigoro, on the other hand, is pretty much rude and confrontational in every scene he takes part in and we never really see any other side to him. (unlike his daughter who is shown worrying over Hanako after her panic attack and initiates a truce with her cousin before they're set to part ways showing she's a caring individual despite her stubbornness and forceful personality)

My personal impression was that Jigoro was looking for a confrontation. Chewing out Hisao over stuff like his dressing sense (while his only son's dressing sense is even worse) or a bunch of fishing rods (if anybody's responsible for those, it's Shizune and Hideaki, not some stranger who's never been in the house) just seems petty. It's also kind of short-sightened.

Let's say you have a daughter who's been shutting you out for well over a decade despite all your efforts to reach out to her. (and hire tutors to teach her to reach out to you) Then some random guy comes along with her. He IS able to communicate with your daughter and she's currently dating him, maybe even sleeping with him. He may lack drive and direction in life compared to you, yet he learned sign language in 2 months (purely so he could interact with your daughter...not because he wants to teach sign language or anything) while you couldn't do it in 12 years despite also wanting that interaction. His fashion style and appearance may suck compared to yours, yet he got your daughter to accept him in a very short time and she vastly prefers his company to yours. He may be pond scum compared to you, yet he pwned you in that one important area. Yeah, that probably stings. Now how to deal with him...

You COULD try to show your best side, make him warm up to you and hope he might eventually act as a bridge between you and your estranged daughter. Maybe even say stuff like "that old man of yours isn't THAT bad" when the subject comes up between him and her. It might work to your benefit. It's not like you have that much to lose in that area.

Or you could see the guy as a walking bag of salt determined to rub itself in your wounds. You could talk down to him and make him dislike you. Just don't be surprised if he eventually starts encouraging your daughter's shut-dad-out behavior and starts convincing her that nothing important will be lost if she comes to celebrate the next new year (and the ones that follow) at HIS home instead of yours.

I wonder if Shizune will be as much of a bitch as her father if she stayed single <_< ... ohlawd

Archimedes wrote:It's not like a child has the need to be loved and protected or to talk to someone, especially at a point where she can probably barely count from 20 backwards, or is dependent in general...

You said yourself that she didn't need him and never would. Now you can't even keep your own argument straight.

And again, all your rambling about lawyers and justice doesn't actually say anything or in any way deflect Shizune's blame in her familial scenario, being sarcastic doesn't make a perfectly plausible scenario any less plausible, and mentioning that she was a child once does not absolve her of fault while she is no longer a child.

Archimedes wrote:That whole Jigoro part of the story is simply unbelievable in my opinion.

It could also be that Jigoro just started to care for her, but she thinks it's too late (that would at least be plausible).

Uhm... what? I present one possible interpretation, and point out that taking the literal meaning is unbelievable. And, rather than address the actual interpretation, you focus on agreeing that looking at things at face value presents an absurdity.

Some people that got sexually abused have unusual high sex drive as adults, that doesn't exclude.

No, i doubt that this is the actual case. But even childs that get abused in such a way tend to speak with their parents. (they may stop once they are old enough, but the choices of a child are quite limited)

I was more focusing on the fact that she has a healthy attitude toward sex. Based strictly on relationship length, even Hanako has sex more often.

So, you really believe that it's not slightly exaggerated that a daughter doesn't talk to her father for the rest of her life if he does try to be a good father?

I know that it's stated a few times in the story that he actually does care about shizune, but it doesn't fit.

As i initially said, i believe that the Author wanted to suggest that Shizune is that way because of her childhood, but went to far (so that it is unbelievable). That was the actual thing that disturbed me, not that Jigoro is an asshole, but that he is unbelievable.

So, you are basically telling that a six year old decided to completely exclude her father - who simply tried to do the best for her - because of spite, or what? Do you really think that's plausible?

I had said that I needed to put more thought into it. I still haven't reached a conclusion on that point, but let's take it from the top:

Jigoro says she hasn't talked to him for 12 years. There are three possible interpretations:

a) Jigoro is referring specifically to vocalisation. He falls squarely into Bell's school of thought with regard to deafness.
b) Jigoro is stating that, since the age of six, Shizune hasn't "said" one word directly to him.
c) Jigoro is stating that they communicate in the barest sense, but there's no actual talking. "How was your day?" "Fine." "Anything interesting happen?" "Not really." "Where are you going?" "Out."

A is possible, but a little far-fetched. It would explain why Shizune is in 3-3 rather than 3-1, but opens up some pretty severe difficulties. The most notable gap in this theory is Shizune herself. In this interpretation, she's deaf and the daughter of a Bellite, but insists on using sign language. Class assignment or no, that girl would have some deaf acquaintances at least, to say nothing of friends.

B has been the subject of most of this discussion. At this point, I'm thinking the greatest likelihood is that it hasn't been a major break-point event, but rather the cumulative result of Shizune's and Jigoro's conflicting personalities. Even at this, though, a total break in communication seems kind of extreme. Possible, but I'm beginning to doubt this interpretation, too.

C is... boringly mundane. Which may be why it's exactly the right answer. Shizune is shutting Jigoro out, it vexes Jigoro to no end, and, most notable of all, it's a universal conflict rather than one based strictly on her disability (that's a pretty big theme throughout KS, you'll notice). It's unusual for a child to start drifting away and becoming detached like that at six years old, but let's look at it another way. Shizune is treating Jigoro the exact same way she treats Misha and Hisao. All three of those people want a deeper connection with Shizune, and it eats away at them that they can't achieve it. And she has absolutely no clue. She thinks that everything's fine. She's not shuttign Jigoro out - she's just answering his questions. It's a waste of time to go rambling on about pointless details, anyway.

Well, we could just assume that Hisao shout every sentence, but there is no hint in the story.

Such things should be explicit noted by the author.

You'd have a point if this were third person omniscient. But it's not. It's first person perspective. to be a believable first-person account, it's necessary that the narrator have the possibility of (a) being mistaken or misinterpreting events and actions; (b) failing to notice key details (either the significance oft he details or even their very presence); and (c) misleading the reader, either deliberately or unintentionally, due to the inherent bias of reporting things from his perspective.

Regardless, details about tone and body language are so subtle that most people don't notice them about themselves. It would be nice if we had more information about how Hisao is acting, but it's unnatural for a narrator to report their habitual inclinations. Obviously, there would be a huge difference between a Hisao that stands at attention and responds to Jigoro's questions in a crisp military fashion on one hand; and a Hisao that slouches with his arms crossed and feet propped up on the coffee table, pronouncing every word with a sneer. Neither of those Hisao's are likely, as the real Hisao is probably someone in between.

I guess, when it comes down to it, we've been trying to take a Rashomon-style approach to the character of Jigoro. I think, in the end, it's actually been very helpful in getting a better sense of who the real Jigoro might be. At least, it's been productive for me...

Guest Poster wrote:Personally I'm more inclined to give Hisao the benefit of the doubt since we learn quite a bit about Hisao over the course of the VN and he doesn't really have the habit of being bratty towards adults. Jigoro, on the other hand, is pretty much rude and confrontational in every scene he takes part in and we never really see any other side to him. (unlike his daughter who is shown worrying over Hanako after her panic attack and initiates a truce with her cousin before they're set to part ways showing she's a caring individual despite her stubbornness and forceful personality)

Given the fact that he only has four scenes, we learn quite a bit about Jigoro. I maintain that he's quite a gracious host (and neither rude nor confrontational) in the first half of his introductory scene. Things don't go south until Hisao asks him about his profession. More important is his fourth scene, which happens to be the only one where he isn't really responding to Hisao. Ostensibly, he's yelling at a deaf girl about how his Student Council was much better, then he asks Shizune a single question and leaves. I've already gone into detail elsewhere, but I really do think that that scene hints at a MUCH softer Jigoro than we got to see in the other three scenes. Hell, Hisao practically says as much himself (and Shizune agrees).

My personal impression was that Jigoro was looking for a confrontation. Chewing out Hisao over stuff like his dressing sense (while his only son's dressing sense is even worse) or a bunch of fishing rods (if anybody's responsible for those, it's Shizune and Hideaki, not some stranger who's never been in the house) just seems petty. It's also kind of short-sightened.

Depending on the specific objections, Hisao actually has worse fashion sense than Hideaki. Hideaki at least has the basic competence to coordinate colors (even Shizune gives Hisao a hard time about that). The fishing rods weren't actually ever directed specifically toward Hisao. It's only when Hisao tried to explain how they worked out having more people than rods that Jigoro focused on him. And, in all honesty, it's pretty hard to read Hisao's explanation without it coming off as a little insulting, sexual innuendos aside.

Details aside, I'd be willing to accept the proposition that he's looking for a confrontation, but less convinced that it would be to feel better about himself. You'll recall that Shizune and Misha claim that he always does that with guests. I'd imagine he does it to see how they measure up. Hisao mentions that Shizune judges people not by their answers to questions, but by their reactions to statements. If Jigoro's the same, we can toss out the past four pages discussing Hisao's choice of words, tone, etc. If we focus only on how Hisao reacts to Jigoro's statements, it's a pretty poor showing.

Let's say you have a daughter who's been shutting you out for well over a decade despite all your efforts to reach out to her. (and hire tutors to teach her to reach out to you) Then some random guy comes along with her. He IS able to communicate with your daughter and she's currently dating him, maybe even sleeping with him. He may lack drive and direction in life compared to you, yet he learned sign language in 2 months (purely so he could interact with your daughter...not because he wants to teach sign language or anything) while you couldn't do it in 12 years despite also wanting that interaction. His fashion style and appearance may suck compared to yours, yet he got your daughter to accept him in a very short time and she vastly prefers his company to yours. He may be pond scum compared to you, yet he pwned you in that one important area. Yeah, that probably stings. Now how to deal with him...

I will readily concede that there's something about Hisao that antagonises Jigoro and brings out the worst in him, for the reasons you've stated and more.

...With one caveat.

You see, it never actually establishes whether Jigoro knows sign language. He doesn't use it, but remember that we're peeking in on a relationship that's been 18 years in the making. Hisao assumes that he doesn't know sign language, and it is established that Hideaki doesn't know sign language, but those aren't really indicative of anything. I will concede that it is more likely than not that Jigoro doesn't know sign language, but there's just enough ambiguity there.

You COULD try to show your best side, make him warm up to you and hope he might eventually act as a bridge between you and your estranged daughter. Maybe even say stuff like "that old man of yours isn't THAT bad" when the subject comes up between him and her. It might work to your benefit. It's not like you have that much to lose in that area.

Or you could see the guy as a walking bag of salt determined to rub itself in your wounds. You could talk down to him and make him dislike you. Just don't be surprised if he eventually starts encouraging your daughter's shut-dad-out behavior and starts convincing her that nothing important will be lost if she comes to celebrate the next new year (and the ones that follow) at HIS home instead of yours.

Depending on the actual nature of Shizune and Jigoro's relationship (as addressed elsewhere in this discussion). Regardless, you're discussing a rational assessment of the situation. No matter how much someone can recognise the rationality of a situation, some faces just deserve to be punched, and it's hard to keep yourself from filling that need. We're largely talking about how Jigoro reacts to a new, unfamiliar, and unpleasant individual, invading his home and seducing his daughter - all within a relatively short space of time. Is it really fair to judge his entire character and the entire tenor of their relationship based on his difficulty controlling his temper (He loses it the first two times, while the third time he keeps it under relative control)? Especially when we have a fourth scene that doesn't necessarily redeem him, but implies that there's much more than those first encounters might imply?

And, on a more practical point, I think Shizune would drop Hisao like a hot potato if he tried distancing her from her father (especially if we subscribe to option C up there...).

You see, it never actually establishes whether Jigoro knows sign language. He doesn't use it, but remember that we're peeking in on a relationship that's been 18 years in the making. Hisao assumes that he doesn't know sign language, and it is established that Hideaki doesn't know sign language, but those aren't really indicative of anything. I will concede that it is more likely than not that Jigoro doesn't know sign language, but there's just enough ambiguity there.

I don't know about ambiguity. When Shizune signs to Hisao "Tell him not to insult my friends.", Hisao translates that into spoken language and Jigoro asks him who of the two is talking, it's quite obvious he wasn't able to understand what Shizune was signing in the first place.

Depending on the actual nature of Shizune and Jigoro's relationship (as addressed elsewhere in this discussion). Regardless, you're discussing a rational assessment of the situation. No matter how much someone can recognise the rationality of a situation, some faces just deserve to be punched, and it's hard to keep yourself from filling that need. We're largely talking about how Jigoro reacts to a new, unfamiliar, and unpleasant individual, invading his home and seducing his daughter - all within a relatively short space of time. Is it really fair to judge his entire character and the entire tenor of their relationship based on his difficulty controlling his temper (He loses it the first two times, while the third time he keeps it under relative control)?

I give you the fact that he could be excused for being a bit upset by suddenly being faced with his daughter's (presumably) first boyfriend coming along, especially since it's very unlikely Shizune told him beforehand, but your remark about being judged merely by his difficulty controlling his temper does reinforce my previous statement that Jigoro is a rather cartoonish character in a relatively realistic cast. The guy became rich and succesful (which included getting to marry the daughter of an upstanding upper-class family) in a country where failing to control your temper, no matter how justified, is seen as the ultimate sign of immaturity. A person with poor impulse control becoming succesful in Japan is like a hippie becoming a succesful community leader in the boonies of southern Texas. It stretches the suspension of disbelief just a little bit too much.

Guest Poster wrote:A person with poor impulse control becoming succesful in Japan is like a hippie becoming a succesful community leader in the boonies of southern Texas.

Oh great, now I can't get the image of Jigoro in hippie getup out of my head. Thanks for nothing, jerk.

e: Or even better, cowboy getup.

Guest Poster wrote:The guy became rich and succesful (which included getting to marry the daughter of an upstanding upper-class family) in a country where failing to control your temper, no matter how justified, is seen as the ultimate sign of immaturity. A person with poor impulse control becoming succesful in Japan is like a hippie becoming a succesful community leader in the boonies of southern Texas. It stretches the suspension of disbelief just a little bit too much.

Where is it stated that Lilly's father is a member of an upstanding upper-class family? All I know is the surname Satou/Sato is the most common Japanese surname.

Guest Poster wrote:I don't know about ambiguity. When Shizune signs to Hisao "Tell him not to insult my friends.", Hisao translates that into spoken language and Jigoro asks him who of the two is talking, it's quite obvious he wasn't able to understand what Shizune was signing in the first place.

I'd argue that it's not as unambiguous as you think. Hisao wasn't acting as an interpreter there. As an interpreter, he would've reported everything she said, or at least qualified his statement. Under some readings, it could be argued that he'd only ask that if he knew sign language. Until that point, it was Misha doing all the interpreting, and it had already been established that Hisao was more than willing to pick a fight with Jigoro. Why would Jigoro want clarification if the command was coming from someone who would be giving him lip anyway? And someone who hadn't been translating anything Shizune said prior to that moment?

I give you the fact that he could be excused for being a bit upset by suddenly being faced with his daughter's (presumably) first boyfriend coming along, especially since it's very unlikely Shizune told him beforehand, but your remark about being judged merely by his difficulty controlling his temper does reinforce my previous statement that Jigoro is a rather cartoonish character in a relatively realistic cast. The guy became rich and succesful (which included getting to marry the daughter of an upstanding upper-class family) in a country where failing to control your temper, no matter how justified, is seen as the ultimate sign of immaturity. A person with poor impulse control becoming succesful in Japan is like a hippie becoming a succesful community leader in the boonies of southern Texas. It stretches the suspension of disbelief just a little bit too much.

Hold up a second. You're taking my Western interpretation of his behavior, and judging it by Eastern standards. Most of Jigoro's outbursts follow the general theme of "Shut up, I'm better than you." In a Western, meritocratic interpretation, that's usually considered a temper tantrum. If he's better, then it's demonstrable, and there's no need to appeal to his own authority. He can point to accomplishments to illustrate why he has the high ground. In the East, however, his appeal to self-authority is anything but a tantrum. It is the proper (and perhaps even obligatory) way to put a disrespectful punk in his place. In the East, it's not a failure to control his temper; it is merely an assertion of his authority.

Where is it stated that Lilly's father is a member of an upstanding upper-class family? All I know is the surname Satou/Sato is the most common Japanese surname.

We know her family's wealthy and also that the Satou family owns a company that eventually became a multinational. I also believe Lilly's father was given a promotion that required his move to Scotland. That, to me, suggests that Lilly's dad wasn't always the one calling the shots. His own father probably headed the company before retiring. I'd say that makes them upper class. And if they own a company, that also makes them fairly prestigious/upstanding. So...this one's mostly conjecture based on a few things the game says.

I'd argue that it's not as unambiguous as you think. Hisao wasn't acting as an interpreter there. As an interpreter, he would've reported everything she said, or at least qualified his statement. Under some readings, it could be argued that he'd only ask that if he knew sign language. Until that point, it was Misha doing all the interpreting, and it had already been established that Hisao was more than willing to pick a fight with Jigoro. Why would Jigoro want clarification if the command was coming from someone who would be giving him lip anyway? And someone who hadn't been translating anything Shizune said prior to that moment?

I kind of feel that's a very convoluted reading of the situation. If you were with two other people and person A held up a sign to person B saying "tell that guy to shut up" and person B then says "shut up", there's no need to ask who's the one talking. The most logical conclusion would be that person B is repeating person A's words and whether he agrees with them or not doesn't really change the fact that person A was the one who initiated the reaction. If person A held up a sign in a language you couldn't understand, it'd make sense to ask if person B is merely parrotting person A or if what he just said was not related to what person A just signed.

Hold up a second. You're taking my Western interpretation of his behavior, and judging it by Eastern standards. Most of Jigoro's outbursts follow the general theme of "Shut up, I'm better than you." In a Western, meritocratic interpretation, that's usually considered a temper tantrum. If he's better, then it's demonstrable, and there's no need to appeal to his own authority. He can point to accomplishments to illustrate why he has the high ground. In the East, however, his appeal to self-authority is anything but a tantrum. It is the proper (and perhaps even obligatory) way to put a disrespectful punk in his place. In the East, it's not a failure to control his temper; it is merely an assertion of his authority.

Fair enough. Point taken.

Guest Poster wrote:I kind of feel that's a very convoluted reading of the situation. If you were with two other people and person A held up a sign to person B saying "tell that guy to shut up" and person B then says "shut up", there's no need to ask who's the one talking. The most logical conclusion would be that person B is repeating person A's words and whether he agrees with them or not doesn't really change the fact that person A was the one who initiated the reaction. If person A held up a sign in a language you couldn't understand, it'd make sense to ask if person B is merely parrotting person A or if what he just said was not related to what person A just signed.

In a vaccuum, you would be correct. I even agree that your example of an ad hoc form of communication retains the necessary ambiguity.

However, we are not in a vaccuum, and sign language is not an ad hoc form of communication.

Even if Jigoro does not know sign language, he has been exposed to sign language enough (and has hired interpreters likely to explain) that he should be aware of two key details. 1) Interpreters repeat both sides of the conversation the parties exactly (or as exactly as possible, given translation). Any variation from what is actually said is a serious breach of trust. No cleaning up the language, no expressing the gist of what was said - the exact words (And you would be correct in noting that Misha does not do this). 2) Sign language is directed to the recipient by body language - primarily eye contact.

So let's recap with these details in mind. We know that Hisao is not interpreting to start, because Shizune is confused - she wants to know if Jigoro is insulting her friends. She signs something to Hisao. Hisao tells Jigoro "Don't insult my friends." Jigoro asks which of the two is talking.

There's no actual confusion there. Shizune was addressing Hisao, not Jigoro. I would argue that leaves two possible interpretations for Jigoro's question. A) Jigoro does not know sign language. He sees Shizune sign something to Hisao, then Hisao tells Jigoro "Don't insult my friends." Jigoro knows that this is not Hisao interpreting for Shizune, because Shizune was addressing Hisao, not Jigoro. Jigoro's “Which one of you is talking?” is derisive and insulting - implying that Hisao needs someone else to think for him. B) Jigoro knows sign language. He sees Shizune sign "Hisao, is he saying something insulting? Tell him not to insult my friends!" then Hisao tells Jigoro "Don't insult my friends." Jigoro's “Which one of you is talking?” is derisive and insulting - Hisao is repeating Shizune's command as if he were interpreting, when he is clearly doing no such thing. You could consider it a subtle way of saying "you're doing it wrong."

ProfAllister wrote:You could consider it a subtle way of saying "you're doing it wrong."

I'm sorry if I'm bringing up something that has been discussed earlier (I did not read through all posts, they were... well, huge XD), but I don't think Jigoro and subtlety mix very well.
Okay, that's not entirely true. Jigoro and this kind of subtlety don't mix very well. If something on his mind, especially if it involves telling someone that "you're doing it wrong", I think he will no doubt say it in the most direct way possible. If we want to hear subtlety from Jigoro, we might be better off looking at topics that he's not so fond of, such as his relationship with his daughter.
In my opinion, Jigoro is an amalgam and perhaps slight exaggeration of a couple of personality types that actually do exist in real life. His constants insults and insufferable attitude is more lifelike than some might think. More often than not, such people simply don't notice how laughably pompous their act is, or how their every other sentence comes off as insulting or belittling to others. And when they're actually doing it on purpose... Lord have mercy. O_o They aren't actually bad people, at least not always; the best antidote against them is not to take them seriously, and unlike Hisao, I think Jigoro's kids are actually aware of this, at least to an extent.

Even if Jigoro does not know sign language, he has been exposed to sign language enough (and has hired interpreters likely to explain) that he should be aware of two key details. 1) Interpreters repeat both sides of the conversation the parties exactly (or as exactly as possible, given translation). Any variation from what is actually said is a serious breach of trust. No cleaning up the language, no expressing the gist of what was said - the exact words (And you would be correct in noting that Misha does not do this). 2) Sign language is directed to the recipient by body language - primarily eye contact.

Hisao and Misha aren't interpretors though. They're friends who happen to know sign language and use that knowledge to help their deaf friend communicate with the outside world. It's a favor, not a job that's meant to be done on a professional level. I'd also be very surprised if Shizune didn't know that Misha isn't a spotless filter for her words, but she doesn't seem to take issue with it.

B) Jigoro knows sign language. He sees Shizune sign "Hisao, is he saying something insulting? Tell him not to insult my friends!" then Hisao tells Jigoro "Don't insult my friends." Jigoro's “Which one of you is talking?” is derisive and insulting - Hisao is repeating Shizune's command as if he were interpreting, when he is clearly doing no such thing. You could consider it a subtle way of saying "you're doing it wrong."

I'm with Pip here...if Jigoro wanted someone to know he was doing something wrong, he wouldn't be subtle about it. He'd simply call that person an idiot. And if Jigoro knew sign language, I doubt he'd attempt to modestly hide it. He'd brag about it or, most likely, criticize Hisao's still-average fluency in the language. In addition, just before that particular conversation, Hisao was trying to teach Hideaki some basic sign language and when Jigoro comes in, the first thing he says is along the lines of "Why are you flailing your arms about like an idiot?". That also suggests he didn't recognize Hisao's gestures as actual words in sign rather than just random arm movements.

the best antidote against them is not to take them seriously, and unlike Hisao, I think Jigoro's kids are actually aware of this, at least to an extent.

If that's the case for Shizune, she sure manages to hide that well.

Guest Poster wrote:If that's the case for Shizune, she sure manages to hide that well.

Well, with Shizune it's hard to tell, since he and Jigoro don't really interact for obvious reasons. But when Hideaki commented on his dad's latest rant, using words such as "slander" and "assault", for me that made the whole thing pretty hard to take seriously.
That's not to say everything is just peachy. It's pretty telling when Hisao, a little fed up with Hideaki, but mostly with his own inability to get along with him, says "Have you ever heard of 'children should be seen, not heard'?", Hideaki answers with a rather dejected "Yes." Sure enough, in the aforementioned scene Jigoro brings up the same phrase, probably not for the first and not for the 214th time. :/

pip25 wrote:I'm sorry if I'm bringing up something that has been discussed earlier (I did not read through all posts, they were... well, huge XD), but I don't think Jigoro and subtlety mix very well.
Okay, that's not entirely true. Jigoro and this kind of subtlety don't mix very well. If something on his mind, especially if it involves telling someone that "you're doing it wrong", I think he will no doubt say it in the most direct way possible. If we want to hear subtlety from Jigoro, we might be better off looking at topics that he's not so fond of, such as his relationship with his daughter.
In my opinion, Jigoro is an amalgam and perhaps slight exaggeration of a couple of personality types that actually do exist in real life. His constants insults and insufferable attitude is more lifelike than some might think. More often than not, such people simply don't notice how laughably pompous their act is, or how their every other sentence comes off as insulting or belittling to others. And when they're actually doing it on purpose... Lord have mercy. O_o They aren't actually bad people, at least not always; the best antidote against them is not to take them seriously, and unlike Hisao, I think Jigoro's kids are actually aware of this, at least to an extent.

"Subtle" may be a poor word choice there. He does have a habit of asking those sort of accusatory questions - the kind when he already knows the answer, specifically directed toward his target so that person's forced to recognise his own failings, whether or not he admits it out loud.

As for whether or not it's likely for Jigoro, that's a difficult call to make. My whole point in this thought experiment is to try looking at these scenes from another direction, to see if there is a tenable alternate interpretation of Jigoro hidden in the text. So the question isn't "Is this something Jigoro would do?"; it's "If we take this interpretation, does it remain consistent internally and with our interpretations of his other scenes/traits?"

Things are, of course, difficult, because we only get a few encounters as reported by someone who has very good reason to dislike him. And we don't get many different contexts for his actions, either.

I do somewhat agree with the interpretation that Hideaki probably doesn't take Jigoro's rants seriously - especially considering how inclined Jigoro seems to be toward bluster.

Guest Poster wrote:Hisao and Misha aren't interpretors though. They're friends who happen to know sign language and use that knowledge to help their deaf friend communicate with the outside world. It's a favor, not a job that's meant to be done on a professional level. I'd also be very surprised if Shizune didn't know that Misha isn't a spotless filter for her words, but she doesn't seem to take issue with it.

It's a delicate balance there. You are correct that they are friends first and foremost, but they still take on an interpreting role. In that interpreting role, trust is still essential, and there's still an expectation that you'll relay things faithfully. Hisao was not doing that.

To recap, Shizune was talking to Hisao. She told him to tell Jigoro not to insult her friends. Hisao then told Jigoro not to insult his friends. This does not reflect Shizune's intent, it does not convey the gist of her words, and, assuming he is in an interpreting role, he is relaying something to Jigoro as if she were directly addressing him, which was not the case. And, technically, he's not even telling Jigoro what Shizune wanted him to say. Hisao's friends and Shizune's friends differ at least in that they're self-exclusive.

Also, as mentioned, Hisao wasn't doing any interpreting before he spoke to Jigoro. It simply does not make sense for Jigoro to assume that Hisao started interpretation at that point, especially when Shizune wasn't talking to Jigoro.

The Misha bit was a side note, since I felt someone might bring it up if I didn't mention it. It is true that some leeway is given if there is an established relationship between the deafie and the interpreter. From what we see, it is true that Misha gets things mostly right, so it could very well be a result of their familiarity. While familiarity is acceptable, it generally tends to be discouraged, because the obligations of friendship often conflict with the obligations of the service-client relationship of interpreting. But let's not try to get sidetracked by that point.

In addition, just before that particular conversation, Hisao was trying to teach Hideaki some basic sign language and when Jigoro comes in, the first thing he says is along the lines of "Why are you flailing your arms about like an idiot?". That also suggests he didn't recognize Hisao's gestures as actual words in sign rather than just random arm movements.

I'd like to imagine that's not what you're implying, but the only way that makes sense is if Jigoro is a complete idiot. He's raised a deaf daughter, hired sign language tutors and interpreters, and interacted with Misha, but he doesn't recognise sign language? Even if he doesn't know sign language, he should be intelligent enough to realise that unfamiliar arm flailing could be sign language. There's absolutely no ambiguity in that opening that he was antagonising Hisao - his knowledge of sign language is irrelevant.