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Lilly showed her ability to be a good mother in how she took care of Hanako. In my eyes, she is the one person on the list who has already proven themselves. As for the poll itself, I choose 'None of the Above'.

Omega wrote:Lilly showed her ability to be a good mother in how she took care of Hanako. In my eyes, she is the one person on the list who has already proven themselves. As for the poll itself, I choose 'None of the Above'.

*sigh* Yes, she took care of her so well that during Hanako's route she herself even has to admit that she's been far too overprotective of her during Hisao's phonecall. I'm not saying that she wasn't sweet for doing it - her taking care of Hanako was in fact very motherly...but to the point where, without Hisao coming along in either her own or Lilly's route, Hanako would've also stayed a child. And emotionally abusive types tend to do that unfortunately to the ones they love the most (wether they be mothers or grandmothers, in my case).

Notice that Lily is self-aware on this issue AND Hanako is not feeling ok about it herself. Chances are if Hisao didn't show up and Lily doesn't back off, Lily will be the one getting the Bad End.

YZQ wrote:Notice that Lily is self-aware on this issue AND Hanako is not feeling ok about it herself. Chances are if Hisao didn't show up and Lily doesn't back off, Lily will be the one getting the Bad End.

I doubt that... Lilly is aware that Hanako needs her space to develop as a person and tends to give her that space. When Hanako needs time alone, Lilly gives it to her and doesn't tend to go out of her way to find her. Hanako, on the other hand, goes out of her way to find Lilly when she needs her. Lilly supports Hanako in much the same way Hisao does when he's not involved with her. Lilly would never get the bad Hanako ending.

Apparently, it's still not enough, as Hanako did reference Lily in the ending, although Hisao was the trigger.

Notice that Lily is self-aware on this issue

This is kind of the important part. Lilly knows that she's occasionally overprotective of Hanako and identifies it as a flaw. When Hanako joins the newspaper club and comes out of her shell more in Lilly's route, Lilly seems a bit wistful but does nothing to keep her friend close and encourages her new activities. That, IMHO, shows that Lilly's not emotionally abusive. Many people in Lilly's situation who are emotionally abusive would try to yank Hanako's chain at this point in order to keep her close and dependant, but Lilly does no such thing.

Which is like I said... Lilly even encourages you to give Hanako her space, it is you disregarding this that cuases the bad ending... which is why Lilly would never get the bad ending.

In the Bad Ending, Hanako did mention that she hated Lily as well. No doubt, Hisao was the trigger, but Hanako already had her doubts.

YZQ wrote:Notice that Lily is self-aware on this issue AND Hanako is not feeling ok about it herself. Chances are if Hisao didn't show up and Lily doesn't back off, Lily will be the one getting the Bad End.

That's the whole thing - knowing about it and being self-aware of it doesn't help one bit, because people will do the same thing all over again regardless of wether they know about their problem or not. Knowing about it isn't the issue. Taking responsibility rather than making excuses for it is. I can state this with confidence considering what I've learned from observing my grandmother, who without a doubt is emotionally abusive.

Maybe I need to straighten this particular part out so that I'm clear on what I mean by stating the term 'emotionally abusive'. Just today my grandmother phones me up, considering I told her earlier I'll be stopping by the library of her hometown (where I grew up) every weekend. Now I've specifically stated to her that I'll see her in the morning and evening, the rest of the time I have to spend in the library to actually get stuff done. But she rings me up: "Can't I just take a break inbetween and mosey over to her for lunch or maybe some money if I'm hurting for it (which I never am)?" I explain to her simply that no, it's not possible, because then I'd have to talk to her and I'd rather take my break in the city where I can run through what I've just learned in my head. Finally towards the end she puts on a melodramatic performance of fake sobbing and hangs up. I go back to my computer here because I already know what's going to happen next...

...the same thing that always happens. 2 hours later, when she sees her emotional ploy has failed, she rings me up again to apologize and to state that it's okay for me to pop by at any time. I reassert what I've stated at the beginning - I'll see her in the morning and evening for breakfast and we can talk then rather than in the middle of the day, where it messes up my thought rhythm.

And she does this all the time. Month to month she apologizes, is very 'self-aware' of just how emotionally abusive she can be sometimes, but never EVER promises to not do it again or works with me to stop it from happening it next time...until the next time when she completely forgets all these apologies and just does it all...over...again.

And the same thing applies to Lilly. She can be very calm, collected and motherly and 'self-aware' of how her efforts might actually be stopping Hanako from growing up. But that doesn't mean she'll stop doing it, especially not considering she was raised to be so self-sufficient and trust in her own judgement alone. It truly is sad/funny, but considering her lesson to Hisao ("You are not alone in your problems, everyone has them and it's alright to ask for help or to worry about someone else"), she is incredibly lousy at following that advice herself.

Does that change for her after her good ending? I'd hope so...but ultimately I can't remember her acting that way, even after Hisao pours his heart out to her in the hospital, all she can say, in her collected manner, is that he can be 'very steadfast' when he wants to be. Which is a nice thing to say, but again...completely dodges her own failing in the whole affair. That she had made a choice for both herself and Hisao, rather than treating Hisao as an adult (the way Akira eventually does during that bench talk) and telling him about her summons the moment she had first heard of them. Instead she just chose not to tell him anything, until he almost ran out of time. She treated him very much so like she couldn't help treating Hanako really...moreso like a child rather than a lover.

Blargh...great. Now I've spiralled out of control with my vitriol towards Lilly. Anyway, the point I was trying to make is...Lilly's just as fallible as any of the other girls when it comes to motherhood and, in fact, her dishonesty with others and herself is what makes her, in my opinion, moreso prone towards emotional outbursts (i.e. when she swears upon being tripped up by Kenji by mistake) rather than less. And this tends to go double for personal issues, especially children of your own.

It will be up to Hanako and Hisao to determine what they want out of the relationship.

Paying lip service is not being self-aware in the true sense. You can say, "Gramps, if you're not going to change, all the errands we're running for you? You can forget about them." Talk to your parents (I don't know if this grandma is your mom's mom or your dad's.). They must be on board if the whole thing is to work. Every time she forgets? Hammer it back into her. Never let her forget and never let her get away with it.

I have called out on Lily's "double standards" before. Again, goes back to how the others want to define the relationship.

Again, she's very aware that Hanako needs her own space to develop as a person. She goes to the store by herself when Hanako doesn't show up at the usual time, Hisao would go off to find her which would be worse for Hanako to deal with her own problems. On previous birthdays Lilly leaves Hanako to her own devices to let her deal with her own problems. Hanako first came to Lilly and thats the way Lilly treats their relationship, she invites Hanako out but doesn't push things and gives Hanako her space when she wants it.

And the same thing applies to Lilly. She can be very calm, collected and motherly and 'self-aware' of how her efforts might actually be stopping Hanako from growing up. But that doesn't mean she'll stop doing it, especially not considering she was raised to be so self-sufficient and trust in her own judgement alone.

And yet she starts letting Hanako go as the latter starts coming out of her shell, rather than attempt keep her close with all sorts of passive aggressive tricks. So she's not just aware of her overprotective streak, but makes an effort to keep it in check. Also, it's easy to crack down on Lilly for preventing Hanako from "growing up", you can't just pretend Hanako would have matured a lot sooner if it hadn't been for Lilly befriending her. I think the opposite is true. Being friends with Hanako involves walking on eggshells at least part of the time.

It truly is sad/funny, but considering her lesson to Hisao ("You are not alone in your problems, everyone has them and it's alright to ask for help or to worry about someone else"), she is incredibly lousy at following that advice herself.

Yep, she is. In fact, a lot of Japanese are.

Does that change for her after her good ending? I'd hope so...but ultimately I can't remember her acting that way, even after Hisao pours his heart out to her in the hospital, all she can say, in her collected manner, is that he can be 'very steadfast' when he wants to be. Which is a nice thing to say, but again...completely dodges her own failing in the whole affair. That she had made a choice for both herself and Hisao, rather than treating Hisao as an adult (the way Akira eventually does during that bench talk) and telling him about her summons the moment she had first heard of them. Instead she just chose not to tell him anything, until he almost ran out of time. She treated him very much so like she couldn't help treating Hanako really...moreso like a child rather than a lover.

Actually, her decision of not telling Hisao sooner is more due to her traditionally Japanese upbringing. In traditionally Japanese culture, bothering others with your problems is a big no-no, so if there's a problem, many Japanese will rather suffer in silence rather than telling a co-worker there's something wrong. It isn't about treating others like children...it's about Lilly having been taught that you don't go around putting your burdens on others. And yeah, it's a trait that tends to lead to larger problems down the road at times.

Actually, I wouldn't think of Lily's actions as part of her upbringing. (Her parents seem to affect her only by their absence.) Rather, it's a set of stuff she figured out for herself which she thought might help her get into her parents' good books. It just happens to match the traditional Japanese mindset on many levels.

Not necessarily the upbringing by her parents, but the lessons she learned at her middle school, the point of which was to teach her how to act as a proper Yamato Nadeshiko.

Lilly worries about people. That's just her nature. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that she has to rely solely on her hearing to tell what's going on with them. Body language and facial expressions are practically foreign to her.

Lilly concern does come across as pity to others at times, even Hisao comments that Lilly seems to pity him at times. That combined with Hanako's own insecurities makes for a very bad combination.