Katawa Shoujo Forums

ShadeHaven wrote:

rydiafan wrote: ... and how can u trust her to be honest with you/hisao in the future ( i still don't see how ppl can't over look the " im going for good but im not gonna tell you " and still like lilly that much )

In my opinion, it's Lilly's procrastination that keeps her from telling Hisao. She knew it would hurt him either way, but didn't want to deal with the guilt. The fact that Lilly says she was just waiting until she was sure is just a weak cover for her procrastinating.

I don't think there's a lot of support for her being a procrastinator in the first place...

The only evidence you can draw from the story is the matter of the festival budget report that Shizune hounds her about, but remember: she wasn't even handling that budget herself! She delegated that task to some other members of her class (likely to help them feel involved in the preparations), so their inability to complete it until the last day it was due reflects nothing on Lilly's character. If there are any other examples of her procrastinating in the game, I'd love to see them, but she seemed to be quite foresighted and responsible to me.

I do think your explanation for her avoiding telling Hisao is generally correct, though. It was probably because she was afraid of dealing with the guilt of causing Hisao emotional pain, so kept putting off the issue for as long as possible, telling herself she would wait until she was more sure of her decision, despite having already made that decision in a practical sense. I just don't think that procrastination is typical of her personality.

rydiafan wrote: So do you honestly believe that Lilly would have told Hisao without her Akira's help ?? ( Maybe Akira knew Lilly wasn't gonna tell Hisao herself )

Well, she would have to at some point, surely? She couldn't just disappear in the middle of the night. And considering how quickly the actual departure occurs after Akira spills the beans, Lilly probably would have had to bring up the issue herself pretty soon anyway. Akira was probably moved to tell Hisao about the trip because she was depressed that she had already taken care of breaking up with her boyfriend, but couldn't commiserate with Lilly about it because she was not being as decisive.

rydiafan wrote:

Mirrormn wrote:damnit i gotta replay lilly route now lol ....
but until lilly was informed of what happened to hisao at the air port ( at least in the good ending never saw the bad one ) she wasn't comming back to the school ( in lillys route ) ..... for all the story tells us she was only suppose to be gone a couple weeks (in hanako's arc) unless im mistaken ( wouldn't be the first time im wrong lol )

You're still confusing the two trips. I'm going to speculate a bit, now; some of the things I'm going to say aren't explicitly in the game and might be wrong. But this way I'm going to create a connection between the two trips, and that should make it harder to confuse them.

Timeline of events (independently of what we're told):

1. Lilly's aunt gets sick; Lilly and Akira are invited to come back home
2. Lilly and Akira go to Scotland for two weeks to visit the sick aunt
3. (Speculation): While in Scotland, Lilly and Akira re-connect to the parents; they get an offer to move "back home"
4. It's not clear when Lilly and Akira decide to move back; it's possible that they only return to "wrap up loose ends"; it's possible that they return and make the decision there. In any case, at least Lilly involves no "outsiders" (non-family) in the decision. In any case, they return.
5. Stuff happens; Lilly and Akira leave again for Scotland. This time for good. (Such is the plan.)

Hanako's route ends mid-(3.). Lilly's route goes all the way. I suppose that - in Hanako's route, with Hisao and Hanako taking care of each other - Lilly will not stay.

***

The core difference between Lilly and Shizune, IMO, is that Lilly hates conflict and Shizune thrives on it. This has implications on their behaviour: Lilly prefers a diplomatic front and off-stage one-on-ones (waiting for the perfect opportunity to address difficult subject). Shizune prefers to tackle things head on and get them out of the way. This makes Lilly appear like a total procrastinator who does noting to Shizune (while Lilly has a pretty good idea of who does what, and when she would need to intervene, and when she can trust the folks around her to do it on their own), and it makes Shizune appear like a confrontational control-freak to Lilly. It's no surprise they don't get along.

On a symbolic level that fits well with their respective disabilities: Lilly's world is a world of sound (it has no focus, It's all around her) - she'll have to procede carefully and take in her environment, or she'll run into obstacles. Shizune's world is a world of vision (all there is to it - peceptually - is what's right in front of her [with minor exceptions such as the draft that hits her through a recently opened door]) - she's, for example, extremely vulnerable to Misha's guess-who game.

I chose Lilly, not because I like her more than Shizune (I probably don't), but because I wouldn't lose my nerves as quickly around her.

Well, she would have to at some point, surely? She couldn't just disappear in the middle of the night. And considering how quickly the actual departure occurs after Akira spills the beans, Lilly probably would have had to bring up the issue herself pretty soon anyway. Akira was probably moved to tell Hisao about the trip because she was depressed that she had already taken care of breaking up with her boyfriend, but couldn't commiserate with Lilly about it because she was not being as decisive.

She would have told Hisao about it at some point, but probably only the moment the situation had her at gunpoint. Maybe a day or so before.

It's difficult to determine Akira's exact motivation, but I think she hoped Hisao could have helped Lilly sort her feelings out.

Keep in mind that Lilly and Akira move for different reasons. Akira's moving to get a better job and made the decision for herself to break up with her boyfriend because of it. The same reason wasn't why Lilly would be leaving...Lilly didn't share Akira's ambition and Akira probably knew that if Lilly considered moving, it'd be only out of a sense of loyalty and duty, not because she really WANTED to migrate. And since Akira did break up with her boyfriend, she wasn't in a position to lecture Lilly about it. I think Akira wanted Hisao to force Lilly to make a decision on what SHE wanted and if Scotland wasn't what she wanted for herself, convince her to stay. Unfortunately, Hisao didn't quite manage that, Lilly's dislike of conflict having rubbed off on him.

The core difference between Lilly and Shizune, IMO, is that Lilly hates conflict and Shizune thrives on it. This has implications on their behaviour: Lilly prefers a diplomatic front and off-stage one-on-ones (waiting for the perfect opportunity to address difficult subject). Shizune prefers to tackle things head on and get them out of the way. This makes Lilly appear like a total procrastinator who does noting to Shizune (while Lilly has a pretty good idea of who does what, and when she would need to intervene, and when she can trust the folks around her to do it on their own), and it makes Shizune appear like a confrontational control-freak to Lilly. It's no surprise they don't get along.

On a symbolic level that fits well with their respective disabilities: Lilly's world is a world of sound (it has no focus, It's all around her) - she'll have to procede carefully and take in her environment, or she'll run into obstacles. Shizune's world is a world of vision (all there is to it - peceptually - is what's right in front of her [with minor exceptions such as the draft that hits her through a recently opened door]) - she's, for example, extremely vulnerable to Misha's guess-who game.

VERY good point about the core difference between the cousins. Also, since Shizune has to communicate without inflections and tones of voice, her natural way of communicating is straight and to the point.

All good points ... still not enough to justify the fact she didn't tell him .... sorry for beating a dead horse but i just can't over look the Scotland thing to think that lilly is that good a person

shizune is straight up honest and i dont see how lilly is any better then shizune ( withholding the truth is just as bad as lying ... then hearing it for someone else on top for that ) there is no way to justify that ... it's ok to lie/ withhold the truth so no one get hurt but if your honest but in your face about it your the worst thing it the world

to steal a quote from kenji / hisao a " I feel like the last sane man in a insane world "

Guest Poster wrote:

Megumeru wrote:(shameful Lilly slandering and Kenji-esque conspiracy theories)

(voice of reason)

Thanks, Guest Poster, whoever you might be. Saved me a lot of trouble, coming to Lilly's defense like that. I'll just say that once you start treating a character like an Iago archetype, where you can't trust him or (in this case) her in any way, and begin searching for hidden meanings and intentions behind every spoken word and action, in your head you can turn any character into an evil, Kira-esque, Chessmaster-level manipulator. I'll add just one more thing:

Megumeru wrote:Manipulative. That's a pretty 'popular' trait she is recognized with, is it? True, she is manipulative--but is it because she is, or is it because she is just playful? If she is that manipulative, she wouldn't have that game after Shanghai where she bets Hisao about 'going back to Yamaku the fastest'. So I say again, is she really manipulative or just damn playful? if she is playful then--ladies and gents--you just realized that this is her way of expressing herself to Hisao. This includes their scene in the roof with Hisao, the chess scene, the banter Hisao and Shizune exchange in the student council office, and much-much more that I may not remember.

You can argue about Shizune's good intentions and her "playful" nature all day, but her manipulativeness is brought up constantly throughout the arc. How she "brings people close" and then "keeps them at arm's length" and what have you, especially with regard to Misha's role as friend and interpreter and rejected lover. It's true that playfulness might be behind some of her antics with Hisao (and even Misha - see Event Horizon, when Shicchan goes out to get some beverages without consulting Misha on what she would want, and comes back with something for her anyway), but that doesn't alter the fact that she is manipulative, whether it's conscious or otherwise.

Shicchan wrote:I put Misha through a lot, and even dragged you into it.

Shicchan wrote:...since all I've done is mess with Misha for two years. And jerk you around for a year for selfish reasons.

Shicchan wrote:The point is that I've messed up so many people by being selfish, and now I want to be away from other people for a while.

Another look at Terminal confirms that she does become aware of the consequences of her actions, even if it's still nebulous as to whether they were deliberate manipulations or just the results of her "playful" nature. To be fair, it could also just be her being miserable and putting the worst possible spin on what has unfolded. Depends on how you read it.

rydiafan wrote:All good points ... still not enough to justify the fact she didn't tell him .... sorry for beating a dead horse but i just can't over look the Scotland thing to think that lilly is that good a person

shizune is straight up honest and i dont see how lilly is any better then shizune ( withholding the truth is just as bad as lying ... then hearing it for someone else on top for that ) there is no way to justify that ... it's ok to lie/ withhold the truth so no one get hurt but if your honest but in your face about it your the worst thing it the world

to steal a quote from kenji / hisao a " I feel like the last sane man in a insane world "

Well, let's be fair here, pal. Neither Lilly nor Shicchan are perfect human beings. True, Lilly withheld news of the summons from Hisao, but on the other hand, Shizune is a borderline sociopath who thinks of people as obstacles and can't interact with them normally.

And hey, at the very least, Lilly isn't a rapist.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
And hey, at the very least, Lilly isn't a rapist.

I can't argue with that lol ... but to each their own i still like shizune better

Is it possible to be a fan of both ?? are there ppl who like both Lilly and Shizune ... or does everyone love one and hate the other ( like me lol )

rydiafan wrote:Is it possible to be a fan of both ?? are there ppl who like both Lilly and Shizune ... or does everyone love one and hate the other ( like me lol )

I pretty much like them both. Whenever I try and pick one over the other I just become too indecisive and drop it.

I really can't hold the Scotland ting against her that much. It's clearly something she didn't have any idea how to handle. She's lived her life not wanting people to worry about her or wanting to cause problems for others. Now she's stuck in a situation without any easy way out. She either disappoints her best friend and the love of her life, or she disappoints her family.

it's fairly obvious that the problem is eating her up inside. Just look at how she blows up at Kenji.

Frankly, I'm not even sure she really wanted to go to Scotland. I think she was going to go along without because it was the easiest option, not necessarily the one she wanted. I remember her mentioning at one point something like "it's another reminder that Scotland isn't home."

Oddball wrote:I really can't hold the Scotland ting against her that much. It's clearly something she didn't have any idea how to handle. She's lived her life not wanting people to worry about her or wanting to cause problems for others. Now she's stuck in a situation without any easy way out. She either disappoints her best friend and the love of her life, or she disappoints her family.

it's fairly obvious that the problem is eating her up inside. Just look at how she blows up at Kenji.

Frankly, I'm not even sure she really wanted to go to Scotland. I think she was going to go along without because it was the easiest option, not necessarily the one she wanted. I remember her mentioning at one point something like "it's another reminder that Scotland isn't home."

I think her Family is Patriarchal, so her father, being the Patriarch, gives a request, essentially, It's like refusing a request from the Queen, or the President.

rydiafan wrote:I can't argue with that lol ... but to each their own i still like shizune better

rydiafan wrote:Is it possible to be a fan of both ?? are there ppl who like both Lilly and Shizune ... or does everyone love one and hate the other ( like me lol )

Well, let's be clear, here - I don't hate Shicchan in any way, shape, or form. All of the KS heroines are brilliant. In fact, there isn't a single character in Katawa Shoujo that I genuinely dislike.

Alright, that's a blatant lie. Jigoro is the one exception to that statement. And even he has his own unique charm, in a way... yeah, never mind, that's another lie. I hate his guts. But still, besides him, I pretty much adore every character in this game - yes, even Kenji, that crazy bastard.

To clarify, I don't think Lilly is manipulative. I do think that she's sublimated what she wants under what her family wants of her.

Until the good end of her route, Lilly doesn't do anything to defy her family or speak ill of them. We only find out the truth about her circumstances through Akira. If you reread the conversation she and Hisao have at the restaurant on their date, there is a lot of subtext indicating that she's not exactly happy about how her family treats her, but doesn't want to flat-out say it to Hisao.

Here is my theory: Lilly sees herself as a burden. Her blindness means that she is always imposing on others for help. Not wanting to be a burden, she's always putting aside her own wants and needs under those of others. Until Akira stepped up, she was willing to be left behind in Japan under the care of her older relatives. Now that Akira's leaving, she wants to go with her so that she won't be a burden to her relatives. She doesn't tell Hisao about her leaving because she doesn't want to worry him. She's so caught up in not being a burden to anyone that she winds up causing more trouble than she would have.

The airport scene breaks through her preconceptions. Basically, it's a vivid example that she can't live her life trying to please everyone. No matter what she does, someone gets hurt. . . Hisao put his life on the line to prove that.

That realization gives her the courage to make her choice: she wants Hisao, and she's going to stand up to her family to have him.

themocaw wrote:Here is my theory: Lilly sees herself as a burden. Her blindness means that she is always imposing on others for help. Not wanting to be a burden, she's always putting aside her own wants and needs under those of others. Until Akira stepped up, she was willing to be left behind in Japan under the care of her older relatives. Now that Akira's leaving, she wants to go with her so that she won't be a burden to her relatives. She doesn't tell Hisao about her leaving because she doesn't want to worry him. She's so caught up in not being a burden to anyone that she winds up causing more trouble than she would have.

Decent theory, but my one problem with it is that at no point in the game does she express any kind of remorse or guilt about her condition. She's the most well-adjusted heroine in the game, and her "seeing" herself as a burden because she has to rely on others just doesn't feel right at all.

I don't think she sees herself as a burden. (and let's not make that joke.) I think she doesn't want people to see her as a burden. She tries her hardest to hide her problems and act like nothing is ever wrong. She wants people to see her as somebody that can rely on and open up to.

The times she does need help, she tends to wait until the last minute to ask and then do so very casually, playing it down as much as possible,like when you went shopping together. She had to know right from the start that she wasn't going to be able to shop for herself alone, yet she walked with you and didn't ask for help until right when you got there.

Likewise, she tends to act like her lack of knowledge about Hanako's past and situation is a personal failure on her part. She should have been able to help and do more about it than she's done.

She didn't want to move in with Jigoro because it would have upset her father. (Although the idea of Akira, Lilly, Shizune, and Jigoro living under one roof is an interesting one.)

Likewise, when she was summoned to Scotland, she made no real objection to it, she couldn't upset or disappoint her family, although quite a few signs point to her not wanting to go.

I think her Family is Patriarchal, so her father, being the Patriarch, gives a request, essentially, It's like refusing a request from the Queen, or the President.

Lilly's father is. Lilly's sister isn't. I can't help but wonder what her mother is like.