Katawa Shoujo Forums

Nekken wrote:What you say, Paddy, is true as far as it goes. Making peace with oneself and one's appearance is important, and feeling loved is part of that. However, the fact remains that other people do notice one's appearance. It's hard not to; even Lilly, although she experiences appearances in a different way from sighted people, still forms her own opinions.

This is true, which is why I am not opposed to the kinds of good folks who go overseas to fix the mouths of harelipped children so that the society they grow up in will not look at them as outcasts. And frankly, elective plastic surgery is no sin. It's just grossly unnecessary most of the time.

One of the big tricks here is to keep in mind that different things will flatter different body types, find what flatters one's own, and learn to work with it.

As one guy pointed out, some people just go crazy for big noses.
I myself like big, beautiful women, women with glasses, women who are much taller or shorter than me. And I definitely have no problems with pettankos if they're the right age.

I suggested an off-the-forehead hairstyle, for example, because it would reduce the dominance of her nose, which in turn would bring out the rest of her face. Cheaper than rhinoplasty, but easier to undo if it doesn't work out. Someone else mentioned lighter glasses: this would also help, though it's more expensive than changing one's hairstyle.

Both of these are good suggestions, I think. Sometimes it's just a matter of a little bodily feng-shui.

My mom worked as a caretaker for a paraplegic lawyer and rancher for a while. That's right RANCHER. Granted, he mainly directed his ranchhands to do the physical labor, but yeah he was a cool guy. He and his wife remained married even after the accident that paralyzed him, and it always looked like it was a healthy marriage. I still wonder how they did it. I mean, if he's paralyzed, can he take care of, ahem, 'husbandly duties'?

WorldlyWiseman wrote: I mean, if he's paralyzed, can he take care of, ahem, 'husbandly duties'?

As long as the blood is flowing correctly, it should be fine. The wife has to do most of the work though.

WorldlyWiseman wrote:My mom worked as a caretaker for a paraplegic lawyer and rancher for a while. That's right RANCHER. Granted, he mainly directed his ranchhands to do the physical labor, but yeah he was a cool guy. He and his wife remained married even after the accident that paralyzed him, and it always looked like it was a healthy marriage. I still wonder how they did it. I mean, if he's paralyzed, can he take care of, ahem, 'husbandly duties'?

Not having legs doesn't prevent you from getting a stiffy.

Paddy wrote:Ah... a debate to be had...
...and over a fairly pretty girl, too... this ought to be interesting...
*considers diving in*
...why not?

Because it at the end of the day, what you think about her makes little difference to her. Being excessively vain is one thing, but if there is an aspect of yourself that has haunted you for your entire life and you could easily change, then it's easily justified. From what I've read, rhinoplasty has a very high success rate. Shying away from something because it's painful is silly if it's going to ultimately improve your quality of life. Money, obviously, factors in.

Regardless, my father had rhinoplasty. The bridge of his nose was crushed. Had surgery to fix it. now he has a normal nose. His life would be undoubtedly harder if I hadn't had the surgery. How is it different for this girl? Because she was born that way she should now be obligated to not change an aspect of herself that she feels is making her life harder than it needs to be?

If you do not come to terms with your "imperfections", you will think that you can throw money at them and solve them.

What she needs is not rhinoplasty, but to overcome her self-consciousness about her nose. It's not like your father's nose, which I imagine was not only ugly but uncomfortable and possibly rather difficult and painful to breathe through.

No, my father had the option of merely having the inside of his nose repaired or having the whole thing cosmetically repaired. The former would have been cheaper and rendered it fully functional (it would have likely healed to look fairly normal, but obviously damaged). He simply chose not to get stares for the rest of his life. Also, you're presuming you know this individual's past and pain and how they are treated or viewed based on this physical aspect. There is absolutely no good reason as to why some physical aspect of yourself that might cause people to judge you harshly shouldn't be corrected if you feel it is getting in the way of your life. If I have acne, I can very easily throw money at that problem to solve it. If I have a cleft palate, I can very easily throw money at it to solve it. I could come to terms with these things, but there's absolutely no reason to when simply eliminating them as an issue is very viable.

Paddy wrote:The issue is not a matter of the nose. It's a matter of the head. We've all got issues like this. "What's he going to think of me because my mother's a drunkard?" "What will I do if she finds out I used to smoke?" "Am I ugly because I've got fat thighs? My father/brother/ex said so." "I'm a porn addict/prostitiute/adulterer/etc. sinner; can God ever love me as I am?"

the things you've mentioned are all non-correlative. If your mother is a drunk then you should be focusing on addressing that relationship. If you used to smoke it was a stupid thing you did in the past. If someone judges you for that it's their problem. if you're legitimately fat then you should exercise and lose the fat. The last one operates under the presumption that one believes in god.

Paddy wrote: Having peace with your own life is a lot more rewarding and a lot less expensive than thinking you can hide/clamp/suck/cut/drill/exfoliate/get mad and yell at whatever you're afraid's going to make you look stupid, whether it's on the surface, in your family, or in your very soul. And in the end it's a lot more productive.

There's a difference between keeping after your appearance and being entirely unable to accept your flaws. If something about your appearance is legitimately hindering you or holds a lot of symbolic emotional pain, opting to correct it is very different than obsessing over your nasolabial folds being a little too pronounced or your philtral dimple being a little too recessed.

Paddy wrote:It is very freeing to know you are loved - by God, by your girlfriend, by your wife, by your children, and by your parents, family, and friends - and they either don't care about your imperfections, or will be with you all the way in spite of them. Cos you know? They've got imperfections, too, and you love them despite them, too.

that assumes one actually buys the idea that God exists, that one has a SO or that one has children. If your family is calling you ugly, then obviously they're judging you as well. Even if they love you, they still can't provide the same kind of emotional solace about your appearance as someone who isn't genetically bound to you.

I'm not implying that one should definitely pursue cosmetic surgery for significant cosmetic shortcomings if it's an option available to them, simply that they shouldn't feel guilty or vain for choosing that route.

axlryder wrote: There is absolutely no good reason as to why some physical aspect of yourself that might cause people to judge you harshly shouldn't be corrected if you feel it is getting in the way of your life.

I understand your argument and yes, I can't assume to know what repercussions a cleft-palate, or bad acne might have. There are some times where surgery can do a better good than none.

But I'd say that nose is fairly normal. Based on the comments here, I'd say that's a fair assumption.

the things you've mentioned are all non-correlative. If your mother is a drunk then you should be focusing on addressing that relationship. If you used to smoke it was a stupid thing you did in the past. If someone judges you for that it's their problem. if you're legitimately fat then you should exercise and lose the fat. The last one operates under the presumption that one believes in god.

Ah... but people still get self-conscious over these things. Not the first two. I don't know what I was thinking with those. They probably just sounded good. But that is why we have disorders like bulimia and anorexia in this country. And the last one could as easily apply to a boyfriend or girlfriend as it could to God, or a god. Plenty of people have issues with their imperfections as they are, right now, whether they're internal or external.

There's a difference between keeping after your appearance and being entirely unable to accept your flaws. If something about your appearance is legitimately hindering you or holds a lot of symbolic emotional pain, opting to correct it is very different than obsessing over your nasolabial folds being a little too pronounced or your philtral dimple being a little too recessed.

Yes, that's true. That is very true.

What do you do about "flaws" that really aren't all that uncommon, or bad? Like women not quite being as thin as the supermodels? Or men not being hung like a horse? Or having a big nose? Or thin lips? Or a bit of a paunch?

I'm not implying that one should definitely pursue cosmetic surgery for significant cosmetic shortcomings if it's an option available to them, simply that they shouldn't feel guilty or vain for choosing that route.

...
... OK.

It's not wrong to want people not to care so much about how they look, though , is it? the vast majority of us look fine just as we are. And it's rather sad - it is - that they think they don't look pretty enough, or something is so hideous that society will reject them.

I mean, it's not vain of people. It's just... we're all to blame for putting so much emphasis on "looking pretty". It need not be so. Being pretty doesn't make you a better person. You can be pretty and still be rather nasty. And I'd rather people focused on being better people than on being pretty people. You know?

I do understand the validity of your point, though, and there's nothing wrong with cosmetic surgery, especially to relieve people of emotional and physical pain.

I was kind of just hoping to make more friends and step out of my shell. I really don't want my nose to become the topic of dispute. I am trying to accept it due to it being part of my heritage. I got teased for it growing up, even from adults and still have people tell me that I'm ugly because of it. I've been looking into plastic surgery, but would rather put money towards graduate school and try to work out my esteem issues. Sorry didn't mean to derail this thread that much just wanted the chance to talk to more people that might be able to relate with me and actually appreciate the shared interests. I appreciate all the nice things people have said as I never heard any growing up (my parents just assumed I must get A's growing up without celebrating any of my achievements).

This was quickly sidetracked. I think this should probably get back onto it's original topic soon, because can't threads be locked for going off topic?

micechasekittens wrote:I was kind of just hoping to make more friends and step out of my shell. I really don't want my nose to become the topic of dispute. I am trying to accept it due to it being part of my heritage. I got teased for it growing up, even from adults and still have people tell me that I'm ugly because of it. I've been looking into plastic surgery, but would rather put money towards graduate school and try to work out my esteem issues. Sorry didn't mean to derail this thread that much just wanted the chance to talk to more people that might be able to relate with me and actually appreciate the shared interests. I appreciate all the nice things people have said as I never heard any growing up (my parents just assumed I must get A's growing up without celebrating any of my achievements).

Sorry, sorry. We'd argue over a bowl of bean soup if we had the opportunity.
It was really me who was to blame for it. If I hadn't gotten so melodramatic I would probably have seen axl did have a good point. He does. But you are still rather cute just as you are, big nose or not.

micechasekittens wrote:I was kind of just hoping to make more friends and step out of my shell. I really don't want my nose to become the topic of dispute. I am trying to accept it due to it being part of my heritage. I got teased for it growing up, even from adults and still have people tell me that I'm ugly because of it. I've been looking into plastic surgery, but would rather put money towards graduate school and try to work out my esteem issues. Sorry didn't mean to derail this thread that much just wanted the chance to talk to more people that might be able to relate with me and actually appreciate the shared interests. I appreciate all the nice things people have said as I never heard any growing up (my parents just assumed I must get A's growing up without celebrating any of my achievements).

My apologies. I hadn't really intended to make a debate out of it. My fault for pursuing it. I was mostly just curious, so thank you for squelching that curiosity.

I can relate with this topic on a psychological level, not so much on a physical.

Due to my own experiences as an autist, having the asperger's syndrome, I tend to get a lot of melodramatic stuff once I end up in a relationship (Which happened very rarely and my last relationship ended years ago). I tend to pick up very emotional (as much as you can call it "picking up" in my case) girls / women, and most of those few had borderline - which IS chaotic, at least to my own experiences. I think it's somewhat funny, adding a person like me who's actually quite unable to show emotions - even though whenever I remember, there were situations where I'd actually love to do the right things - but wasn't able - and then on the other side you have those people who get overly emotional with almost everything. Maybe it was some kind of subconcious compensation for my own lack of emotion inside of my life. It's hard enough to live with a "normal" or to be more precise, neurotypical person, but borderline just makes a fuss. Thing is, all of these girlish-rage-habbits just don't really work for me, they just confuse me even more - which is somewhat awkward, even though my memories tend to make me giggle about what happened, even though I didn't felt that good back then.

I somewhat came to the conclusion to actually withdraw myself - which I actually tend to do anyway - but if there are situations, where I can get a clear glimpse of what's maybe coming up - which happens extremely rarely - I just don't go for it. I think if I am not able to make someone happy - and I can be much of a problem and heavily jealous like a zealot out of the medieval age - I think it's better just to be alone. It's not that hard for me anyway, but of course - and I have to admit that - there are times when I feel lonely or in need of someone to cheer me up - which isn't that hard if I am willing to be cheered up. Besides that, I can't really be angry about someone for long - well at least 99% of the people I meet.

I don't say that I understand you at 100% or "S", but I can tell that I've been both of you.
So how can it be healthy...
I, myself, have a lot of problems like S, but what you have to do is to have the maturity to know when you're ready or not to have the responsability to have a relationship with someone and not rely on this one. You have to know that the person can have her own several problems and you have to know that she would rely on you to comfort her as she will comfort you. You also have to have your situation stabilized in the present and for the future. Think about the other without forgetting yourself. This person is not the one who'll arrange all of your problems and crisis. She's not a doctor or a psychologue, so she won't sometimes react perfectly to what happens to you.

As "you", you don't have to take everything on your shoulder. Don't stay with the person because you fear something bad will happen to her even if you don't like her anymore. It can be cruel, but as human tend to care about others in distress, you have to think more about yourself then her in hard times (but you must have timing when to do so or not). If everything bad that happened or happens is not your fault. She needs you to comfort her by listening, hugging and such. Don't try to find immediate solutions, but you can lead her to where professionals can help her. You have to be a strong person, if you can't take it, admit it or you'll just go crazy and hurt yourself too much in this adventure.

As for the other aspects, I'm in a very serious/long relationship and, as KS relationships didn't last long (some weeks), I think all of them are great, but were about one phase of a relationship. The "take it easy" all funny, childish and sarcastic side to enjoy each other, the dramatic side to know each other better deeply, the soap and kind of cliché side to show how you care and appreciate each other, the confused side with full of questions about our future and present, etc.

Paddy wrote:

WorldlyWiseman wrote:My mom worked as a caretaker for a paraplegic lawyer and rancher for a while. That's right RANCHER. Granted, he mainly directed his ranchhands to do the physical labor, but yeah he was a cool guy. He and his wife remained married even after the accident that paralyzed him, and it always looked like it was a healthy marriage. I still wonder how they did it. I mean, if he's paralyzed, can he take care of, ahem, 'husbandly duties'?

Not having legs doesn't prevent you from getting a stiffy.

It's not that, it's that his neck had been broken and he basically couldn't feel anything below that point (or had lost sensation to varying degrees around his body - I don't remember which). Which leaves his face...and his mouth....wait, I just figured it out