Katawa Shoujo Forums

stalk wrote:That's not really the point. Its more like... if I had a 1/10th of a penny for every time someone said they'd learn sign language to talk to me, bill gates would be asking me how I made my success. When I stopped believing people would learn sign language for me, I had a new brand of people, after hearing how negative I was about it and disregarding their attempts to learn sign language. They would tell me that they understand, and that they are not like the others. I guess I wanted to believe it too, so I once again believed in it, and once again was disappointed over and over and over again.

Everyone from my best friends, to my own family, extended family, and just random friends I've met have promised to learn sign to talk to me. None of them ever followed through. For the vast majority of deaf people, that is how it is. I absolutely hate hearing that line at this point. There's other reasons too. It makes me feel like it takes work to be my friend. And it makes me feel like I'm obligated to be theirs. I can't name how many guys tried to possess me by the mere fact they were attending a sign language class. Since they were putting some effort into it, I now belong to them. I hate hate hate it.

I've been disappointed so many times that I just don't want to be disappointed anymore. So if someone tells me they will learn sign language for me, I will tell them to not bother. If they persist, I will stop contact with them. That's just how I feel, and how most deaf people feel, about hearing people. Maybe it sounds cynical but after being burned by it all our lives, who would put that kind of faith in it over and over again?

As noble as it is to learn sign language when under no compulsion to do so, thinking and acting are completely different. People have thoughts of being noble all the time, probably for some want of recognition, but the reason an action is noble is because it's difficult to actually follow through on.

Would you prefer that people admit that they have no real desire to go through the hassle of learning sign language, and that they would be deceiving themselves as well as you if they were to say they would? Perhaps even saying that they enjoy communicating with you even through text?


(I'm not hitting on you or suggesting anything, if that's what you're thinking.)

I've been thinking about this long and hard. The best answer I can come up in regards to why I don't want to become hearing. At first I felt as though the question was rather excessively personal, essentially asking my life story. But as I thought more and more about it I was able to simplify it to the best of my ability without going into too much personal details.

The best explanation I could come up with is something like.. do you feel as though you are whole? You have your four arms, your eyes, nose, ears, mouth, reproductive stuff, brain, and so on. That is the you, all of you. If someone comes along and has four arms, all of them fully mobile, would that make you less whole? Would you feel as though you are missing limbs? All jokes aside and fantasies about the four armed mortal kombat guy and coolness and stuff... it doesn't affect your image of self. Even though that guy has extra arms, you are still you.

However if I were to pluck your ears away, you would not feel as though you are whole anymore. You are now the lesser for it. It would contradict with your self image. So when you look at me, I know I am making it sound more rude than I mean it, but bluntly you look at me and see me as less than whole. So the idea of my not wanting my hearing back is a foreign concept to you, because that contradicts your self image.

Now from my perspective. From the day I turned deaf to now, many things have happened. But my self perception is that this is me, and I am whole. I would not care much for the ability to hear any more than you would care much for having two extra arms. Being deaf is who I am, and it is my life. To suddenly become hearing would not be a wish granted to me. It would not be a misfortune either, however it is not something I actively desire. If I wanted to have some hearing back, I would look into cochlear implants.

Now, I'm simplifying it a lot. Despite my own self image, there is naturally social influence on it. While I act as though having two extra arms for you and being able to hear for me is the same thing, I know society does not make that so. The advantage of having hearing in society is too tremendous to ignore. However that is where my own personal life comes into play. All the experiences I have had make me who I am. Being deaf is very much a part of my identity. In fact, it's probably the very core of it. If one was to take that away from me, it is almost as though they are tossing my life out of the window and saying that's not you anymore, this is a whole new you!

I don't want that. Maybe it's hard to understand for most, but I just simply do not accept that to be an answer. My deafness is who I am, and all the sadness and depression I've endured have made me who I am, and all the happiness I've experienced as a deaf person that no hearing person could possibly experience is also who I am. I just simply cannot have that magically whisked away from me.

Caesius wrote:
As noble as it is to learn sign language when under no compulsion to do so, thinking and acting are completely different. People have thoughts of being noble all the time, probably for some want of recognition, but the reason an action is noble is because it's difficult to actually follow through on.

Would you prefer that people admit that they have no real desire to go through the hassle of learning sign language, and that they would be deceiving themselves as well as you if they were to say they would? Perhaps even saying that they enjoy communicating with you even through text?


(I'm not hitting on you or suggesting anything, if that's what you're thinking.)

Rather than give a long answer to that I think I'll just tell a story.

There was a guy who worked at the office with me. He worked nearby and instead of going the hassle of trying to talk to me in person, he'd just get on the computer and message me on AIM back and forth. When he laughed, he'd peek his head out and show me he's laughing, and just basically point out all his reactions whenever he had them. He made no pretense of the fact he had no interest in trying to do something as much a pain as writing things down with me or learning sign language.

I asked him if he was bothered with the way we have to talk. He said no, it's kind of cool and totally fun to do things like this! Then peeked his head out and gave me a thumbs up. I think I fell in love instantly. He was, unfortunately, married and had children.

So yeah, when people can seem to have fun talking to me, even without learning sign language... wow is all I can say. And since my whole lipreading and being able to function in society relies on my ability to read body language, I can really tell instantly if someone's just trying to be nice or genuine. Lots of people say writing is no problem just to be nice. The exceptions are few and far between.

stalk wrote:That's not really the point. Its more like... if I had a 1/10th of a penny for every time someone said they'd learn sign language to talk to me, bill gates would be asking me how I made my success. When I stopped believing people would learn sign language for me, I had a new brand of people, after hearing how negative I was about it and disregarding their attempts to learn sign language. They would tell me that they understand, and that they are not like the others. I guess I wanted to believe it too, so I once again believed in it, and once again was disappointed over and over and over again.

Everyone from my best friends, to my own family, extended family, and just random friends I've met have promised to learn sign to talk to me. None of them ever followed through. For the vast majority of deaf people, that is how it is. I absolutely hate hearing that line at this point. There's other reasons too. It makes me feel like it takes work to be my friend. And it makes me feel like I'm obligated to be theirs. I can't name how many guys tried to possess me by the mere fact they were attending a sign language class. Since they were putting some effort into it, I now belong to them. I hate hate hate it.

I've been disappointed so many times that I just don't want to be disappointed anymore. So if someone tells me they will learn sign language for me, I will tell them to not bother. If they persist, I will stop contact with them. That's just how I feel, and how most deaf people feel, about hearing people. Maybe it sounds cynical but after being burned by it all our lives, who would put that kind of faith in it over and over again?

Ouch, that sucks. People love putting off learning languages, even if it's for people they know well; I should've learned Portuguese ages ago, but I kept putting it off for various stupid reasons*. I don't blame you, especially with your own damn parents not following through.

*(This summer I have to learn it, though, since I'm going to be doing learn how to do corpus annotation for a professor on it. Mid-1700s Portuguese, no less.)

stalk wrote:To suddenly become hearing would not be a wish granted to me. It would not be a misfortune either, however it is not something I actively desire. If I wanted to have some hearing back, I would look into cochlear implants.

Now, I'm simplifying it a lot. Despite my own self image, there is naturally social influence on it. While I act as though having two extra arms for you and being able to hear for me is the same thing, I know society does not make that so. The advantage of having hearing in society is too tremendous to ignore. However that is where my own personal life comes into play. All the experiences I have had make me who I am. Being deaf is very much a part of my identity. In fact, it's probably the very core of it. If one was to take that away from me, it is almost as though they are tossing my life out of the window and saying that's not you anymore, this is a whole new you!

I don't want that. Maybe it's hard to understand for most, but I just simply do not accept that to be an answer. My deafness is who I am, and all the sadness and depression I've endured have made me who I am, and all the happiness I've experienced as a deaf person that no hearing person could possibly experience is also who I am. I just simply cannot have that magically whisked away from me.

I get that. I could have laser eye surgery to correct my sight, but I don't do it because being nearsighted has become integral to me (besides the possible complications and uncertainty of the procedure). I do wonder once in a long while what it'd be like to just be able to look and see things that are far away, but otherwise I'm fine and dandy.

stalk wrote:Rather than give a long answer to that I think I'll just tell a story.

There was a guy who worked at the office with me. He worked nearby and instead of going the hassle of trying to talk to me in person, he'd just get on the computer and message me on AIM back and forth. When he laughed, he'd peek his head out and show me he's laughing, and just basically point out all his reactions whenever he had them. He made no pretense of the fact he had no interest in trying to do something as much a pain as writing things down with me or learning sign language.

I asked him if he was bothered with the way we have to talk. He said no, it's kind of cool and totally fun to do things like this! Then peeked his head out and gave me a thumbs up. I think I fell in love instantly. He was, unfortunately, married and had children.

So yeah, when people can seem to have fun talking to me, even without learning sign language... wow is all I can say. And since my whole lipreading and being able to function in society relies on my ability to read body language, I can really tell instantly if someone's just trying to be nice or genuine. Lots of people say writing is no problem just to be nice. The exceptions are few and far between.

D'awwww. This gives me warm fuzzies.

Linear B wrote:Ouch, that sucks. People love putting off learning languages, even if it's for people they know well; I should've learned Portuguese ages ago, but I kept putting it off for various stupid reasons*. I don't blame you, especially with your own damn parents not following through.

I know a guy on a forum I go to who was mute for much of his life, and he said nobody in his family ever bothered learning sign language (granted, he probably doesn't know it himself, but he would probably had been better motivated to learn it if his family showed interest).

He only got his voice back a few years ago, and I imagine he has a cold relationship with the rest of his family.

Now I hope you don't mind me going back to the "giving you back your hearing" topic, but would you take the chance to have the ability to switch your hearing on and off, or to hear only things you want to hear? I would think that no person, deaf or not, would pass up the ability to listen to music any more than they would refuse the ability to see art and nature; but a formerly deaf person would probably not want to learn how to function in society as a hearing person, nor would they want to constantly be bombarded with persistent, ambient, or annoying noise, having lived in silence most of their lives.


Edit: Also, are you startled easily? Whenever I walk around the house with my wireless headphones blasting music, I tend to jump when I round a corner and run into somebody or when somebody starts walking in my direction and I can feel it through floor.

But then again I'm jumpy anyway, so meh.

Caesius wrote:Now I hope you don't mind me going back to the "giving you back your hearing" topic, but would you take the chance to have the ability to switch your hearing on and off, or to hear only things you want to hear? I would think that no person, deaf or not, would pass up the ability to listen to music any more than they would refuse the ability to see art and nature; but a formerly deaf person would probably not want to learn how to function in society as a hearing person, nor would they want to constantly be bombarded with persistent, ambient, or annoying noise, having lived in silence most of their lives.

I don't know if this is the case with deafness, but it seems likely. I remember reading about a man in a book by Oliver Sacks who went blind at 5, and then 50 or years later got an experimental surgery or something to let him see. He didn't know how the hell things looked like actually related to how they felt or sounded or what they really were; if you turned off the sound on a TV, he'd be absolutely lost as to a show's plot. He was damn miserable, and when his eyesight failed again it was actually a relief. I'd imagine it'd be the same with deaf people and sound: they wouldn't know what the hell to make of it all.

In regards to the deaf girl (Shizune, I believe) and her interpreter Misha....

I am deaf as well and just started playing this. It is interesting thus far but I've noticed some rather odd contradictions. First being that Misha is sitting next to Shizune. That's a excellent way to add neck conditions to Shizune's list of disabilities

Ive wondered this for some time now but, when someone is deaf, i know you cant hear your own voice so...do you talk?
I mean, i know your not mute so you can talk but, how do u know your talking ya know?
It must be weird to say words to people but you cant hear yourself saying them, its as if you never said anything to begin with.
Ive also heard a lot of deaf people tend to lose their voice because of this, like they want to talk but they wont know how loud or quiet they are being when they speak, or if the words come out like they intended to, since they cant hear themselves.
Sorry, Ive just always wondered that.

You know how you can feel your vocal cords vibrating when you talk, or even when you clear your throat or groan?

Yeah, that's how.


Edit: Though a deaf person trying to talk will always be less clear than if they were hearing. Try talking while wearing noise-cancelling headphones and blasting music; chances are you'll butcher a few words and you won't even be aware of it.

It's like how your sense of smell complements your sense of taste.

You know how you can feel your vocal cords vibrating when you're talk, or even when you clear your throat or groan?

Yeah, that's how.


Edit: Though a deaf person trying to talk will always be less clear than if they were hearing. Try talking while wearing noise-cancelling headphones and blasting music; chances are you'll butcher a few words and you won't even be aware of it.

ah, i see now.
Thank you.

stalk wrote:I've been thinking about this long and hard. The best answer I can come up in regards to why I don't want to become hearing. At first I felt as though the question was rather excessively personal, essentially asking my life story. But as I thought more and more about it I was able to simplify it to the best of my ability without going into too much personal details.

The best explanation I could come up with is something like.. do you feel as though you are whole? You have your four arms, your eyes, nose, ears, mouth, reproductive stuff, brain, and so on. That is the you, all of you. If someone comes along and has four arms, all of them fully mobile, would that make you less whole? Would you feel as though you are missing limbs? All jokes aside and fantasies about the four armed mortal kombat guy and coolness and stuff... it doesn't affect your image of self. Even though that guy has extra arms, you are still you.

However if I were to pluck your ears away, you would not feel as though you are whole anymore. You are now the lesser for it. It would contradict with your self image. So when you look at me, I know I am making it sound more rude than I mean it, but bluntly you look at me and see me as less than whole. So the idea of my not wanting my hearing back is a foreign concept to you, because that contradicts your self image.

Now from my perspective. From the day I turned deaf to now, many things have happened. But my self perception is that this is me, and I am whole. I would not care much for the ability to hear any more than you would care much for having two extra arms. Being deaf is who I am, and it is my life. To suddenly become hearing would not be a wish granted to me. It would not be a misfortune either, however it is not something I actively desire. If I wanted to have some hearing back, I would look into cochlear implants.

Now, I'm simplifying it a lot. Despite my own self image, there is naturally social influence on it. While I act as though having two extra arms for you and being able to hear for me is the same thing, I know society does not make that so. The advantage of having hearing in society is too tremendous to ignore. However that is where my own personal life comes into play. All the experiences I have had make me who I am. Being deaf is very much a part of my identity. In fact, it's probably the very core of it. If one was to take that away from me, it is almost as though they are tossing my life out of the window and saying that's not you anymore, this is a whole new you!

I don't want that. Maybe it's hard to understand for most, but I just simply do not accept that to be an answer. My deafness is who I am, and all the sadness and depression I've endured have made me who I am, and all the happiness I've experienced as a deaf person that no hearing person could possibly experience is also who I am. I just simply cannot have that magically whisked away from me.

Hmm, I am slightly confused. Putting this through the TL;DR filter, you're saying that "I am not crippled, I just belong to a linguistic minority and it has taken me a huge amount of work for you to understand me (to fight like I have four arms). I do not actively desire to get my hearing back as that would mock my life to date."

Not exactly as eloquent (or polite, even, sorry) as you put it, but that is what you're saying, correct?

If I may weigh in on the above discussion, I think it would be more akin to asking a "normal" person to change their entire physical appearance, down to their race, into another, and to also throw away any cultural heritage you may have had in the process of doing so. Its an identity that you have adopted and cultivated for most of your life. Think about it. It would be a hard thing for most people to do, regardless of whether their experiences in that background could be quantified as "good" or "bad." We hearing people are not conditioned to view it this way, but it's probably something along these lines. I have also read that there are sometimes external forces at work here as well - the deaf community does not usually look favorably upon those who "leave" it through regaining their hearing. It is hard to face being ostracized by a community you have become familiar with.

This is an extremely interesting thread. Thank you stalk for providing this Q&A here. I'm wondering though, I would have to imagine you've done things like this before to the point of absurdity. If so, I admire your patience in doing it again for us.

Actually, now that I think about it, I can almost understand what stalk is getting at. While it's nowhere near what she has, I've been completely deaf in my left ear for most of my life, but it's never been a big issue for me and people don't tend to notice (this, of course, is where my condition differs drastically from stalk's). I probably wouldn't mind being able to hear from my left ear, but it would take some adjusting, as I have no idea what it's like to be able to hear from the left side (and thus both sides) of my head as my right ear has been my only source of sound my entire life. It may even be at the point where the part of my brain that processes sounds coming from my left ear has atrophied, perhaps making the ability to hear out of left ear incredibly uncomfortable or even useless - along the lines of growing a new pair of arms.

Still, I would want to take that chance, and if I couldn't stand it then I could always have surgery to permanently (re)-damage my ear.

Caesius wrote:Now I hope you don't mind me going back to the "giving you back your hearing" topic, but would you take the chance to have the ability to switch your hearing on and off, or to hear only things you want to hear? I would think that no person, deaf or not, would pass up the ability to listen to music any more than they would refuse the ability to see art and nature; but a formerly deaf person would probably not want to learn how to function in society as a hearing person, nor would they want to constantly be bombarded with persistent, ambient, or annoying noise, having lived in silence most of their lives.


Edit: Also, are you startled easily? Whenever I walk around the house with my wireless headphones blasting music, I tend to jump when I round a corner and run into somebody or when somebody starts walking in my direction and I can feel it through floor.

But then again I'm jumpy anyway, so meh.

Being able to switch it on or off might be a incentive, but I still dont think I would do it. I do listen to music, I just perceive it in a different way than you do - through feel rather than sound.

I'm not startled easy as I'm rather sensitive to feel and sight, the slightest vibration or movement will catch my eye. It probably goes for most everyone else, but I'm easily startled at night when I'm alone (But not when Priscilla is with me, because she will notify me to sound long before I have a chance to get nervous).

--EDIT--

I wanted to add to this. I thought more about it and realized that Priscilla is probably the sole reason why. I've mentioned earlier that she is like a security blanket for me. She makes me feel safe at home (since I'm deaf and live alone) which has always been a concern because I wouldnt hear someone break in. She makes me feel safe wherever I go. Just having her by my side acting as my ears is reassuring, and the EXTREMELY rare time I've gone somewhere without Priscilla, I felt as though I left home with half of myself. I was always constantly checking around me, always worried, and so on.

Most deaf people probably arent like that because guide dogs are not common, but I've had her ever since I finished high school so about 5 years now. So she's already a pretty integral part of my life.

I don't know if this is the case with deafness, but it seems likely. I remember reading about a man in a book by Oliver Sacks who went blind at 5, and then 50 or years later got an experimental surgery or something to let him see. He didn't know how the hell things looked like actually related to how they felt or sounded or what they really were; if you turned off the sound on a TV, he'd be absolutely lost as to a show's plot. He was damn miserable, and when his eyesight failed again it was actually a relief. I'd imagine it'd be the same with deaf people and sound: they wouldn't know what the hell to make of it all.

I havent really heard anything like that among deaf people getting cochlear implants. But then again, it's not as jarring as re-acquiring vision. They start slow, and build you up, teach you sounds, and so on.

Ive wondered this for some time now but, when someone is deaf, i know you cant hear your own voice so...do you talk?
I mean, i know your not mute so you can talk but, how do u know your talking ya know?
It must be weird to say words to people but you cant hear yourself saying them, its as if you never said anything to begin with.
Ive also heard a lot of deaf people tend to lose their voice because of this, like they want to talk but they wont know how loud or quiet they are being when they speak, or if the words come out like they intended to, since they cant hear themselves.
Sorry, Ive just always wondered that.

My speech is.... okay. It is not something you just hear and understand. But once you understand the patterns of my speech and are used to it, it's pretty easy to understand me. Most deaf people have problems controlling volume. And further, it often is in the too-loud range. I was like that when I was younger, but my insecurities as I got older put it in the opposite direction so I'm too quiet usually. People often are wondering if they should ask me to speak louder or not because they arent sure if it's rude to or not.

I can feel my own voice, but beyond that I have been taught in speech classes in regards to what mouth movement creates what sound. So I can tell what I'm speaking based on how I move my mouth as well.

A lot of deaf people probably do lose their voice though. If they are sent to a school for the deaf and live on campus, there's almost no chance for them to use their voice. Not using it for years will probably cause them to go mute.

Hmm, I am slightly confused. Putting this through the TL;DR filter, you're saying that "I am not crippled, I just belong to a linguistic minority and it has taken me a huge amount of work for you to understand me (to fight like I have four arms). I do not actively desire to get my hearing back as that would mock my life to date."

Not exactly as eloquent (or polite, even, sorry) as you put it, but that is what you're saying, correct?

It's not incorrect, but this person's cliffs notes is closer to what I'm saying.

If I may weigh in on the above discussion, I think it would be more akin to asking a "normal" person to change their entire physical appearance, down to their race, into another, and to also throw away any cultural heritage you may have had in the process of doing so. Its an identity that you have adopted and cultivated for most of your life. Think about it. It would be a hard thing for most people to do, regardless of whether their experiences in that background could be quantified as "good" or "bad." We hearing people are not conditioned to view it this way, but it's probably something along these lines. I have also read that there are sometimes external forces at work here as well - the deaf community does not usually look favorably upon those who "leave" it through regaining their hearing. It is hard to face being ostracized by a community you have become familiar with.

This is closer to correct. And yes, the deaf community does not take kindly to people who try to fix them, or people who try to fix their hearing. People with hearing aids / cochlear implants are typically rejected from social groups in middle school to college. It is a case of they neither belong to deaf people, nor do they belong to hearing people. A lot of social issues like that which result in issues for them.

My speech is.... okay. It is not something you just hear and understand. But once you understand the patterns of my speech and are used to it, it's pretty easy to understand me. Most deaf people have problems controlling volume. And further, it often is in the too-loud range. I was like that when I was younger, but my insecurities as I got older put it in the opposite direction so I'm too quiet usually. People often are wondering if they should ask me to speak louder or not because they arent sure if it's rude to or not.

I can feel my own voice, but beyond that I have been taught in speech classes in regards to what mouth movement creates what sound. So I can tell what I'm speaking based on how I move my mouth as well.

A lot of deaf people probably do lose their voice though. If they are sent to a school for the deaf and live on campus, there's almost no chance for them to use their voice. Not using it for years will probably cause them to go mute.

This was very helpful for me in regards to my question,
Thank you.