Katawa Shoujo Forums

Does the biggest problem lie in the decision's lack of clarity for which could lead to which ending, or the fact that the decision itself was kind of insignificant in terms of the overall plot? Or maybe the writing in the bad end was just shit, I dunno. XD

The writing was not the problem.
Regarding significance, I don't really think decicion points are at all suited to the medium of fanfictions - I've extensively explained why I think that in other places - so if an author insists on including one and it doesn't even turn out to be significant I find that mildly frustrating.
But yes, the worst part was that it was so random. The resaon most authors give for including choices is that they want to emulate the feeling of a "game" that a VN supposedly is, but a game is supposed to reward the player for "good" choices and punish "bad" choices. It can even include insignificant choices - if they don't punish them. Character death is in fact the ultimate punishment in a game, and to have that after a choice with an unknowable outcome is just bad game design.

Also, just to touch on suspension of disbelief, I think the reason I have an issue with that is because my suspension of disbelief can be stretched incredibly far. I generally won't question something in stories, video games, or movies if it's interesting and/or entertaining as a whole. It's probably for this reason that I tend to lean into more fantastical territory when writing stories, since in my mind it doesn't matter too much that it's not believable.

As brythain said, it depends on the genre/setting.
In fantasy settings I'm inclined to give a pass to a lot more than in hard scifi settings.
In comedy settings I won't criticise roadrunner cartoons for their depictions of physics.

But this story was a serious romance/drama with no supernatural elements up to this point and as such I apply higher standards than that.
So If Hisao is standing on the other side of the road and a sports car is barreling towards Emi at top speed without even having time to engage the brakes, I WILL question how Hisao manages to cross the entire street to push her away, etc.
The driver not even stopping and the biker not noticing the whole event just excerbates that. It would have been a bit more believable if Hisao had managed to push Emi to safety but was hit by the car himself. Then you wouldn't have had to include the biker as an additional unlikely element.

Also you need to update the thread title to reflect the last update's date.

brythain wrote:Depends on the genre: 'slice of life' tends to not be so fantastical (or 'phantastic' to use a very old word) unless it involves magic realism. The writing itself is fine. My response after reading the two cycles (ha ha) was to laugh, shake my head, and think 'shit happens'. The point I suppose was that it didn't really matter what Hisao's intentions or thoughts or actions with regard to Emi were—it would be just bad timing that did him in. That's not satisfying where human relations are concerned, although it works in comedic situations and it may even be a reflection on how life can actually be.

Alright, that's logical. I'll take it into consideration for any future writings!

Mirage_GSM wrote:But yes, the worst part was that it was so random. The resaon most authors give for including choices is that they want to emulate the feeling of a "game" that a VN supposedly is, but a game is supposed to reward the player for "good" choices and punish "bad" choices. It can even include insignificant choices - if they don't punish them. Character death is in fact the ultimate punishment in a game, and to have that after a choice with an unknowable outcome is just bad game design.

Hm, okay then. Although I don't plan to revisit any kinds of decisions in the future, I'll try to remember how they're meant to be implemented. Could come in handy at some point or other, so thank you!
Also, kind of off topic here, but what exactly did you think of the decision in Shizune's route? It seems like it was essentially the same thing, where there are no choices until the very end and that one factor is what decides the outcome of the story. The biggest differences I can see are that it was quite clear which choice was the bad one and that the decision itself was weaved into the story in a better fashion (though that could be debatable).

Mirage_GSM wrote:The driver not even stopping and the biker not noticing the whole event just excerbates that. It would have been a bit more believable if Hisao had managed to push Emi to safety but was hit by the car himself. Then you wouldn't have had to include the biker as an additional unlikely element.

Just to point out, I kind of tried to emphasize that the biker was around a corner and couldn't see the entire event unfolding, leading to him not expecting Hisao to be there after quickly coming around a corner. I know that probably leads into an entire discussion about whether or not he would really be going fast enough to cause significant damage, but that's kind of territory that I want to steer clear of (mainly because I don't really know how much it hurts to get hit by a bike).

brythain wrote:Also you need to update the thread title to reflect the last update's date.

Ah, I completely forgot about that. Thanks, brythain!

Also, kind of off topic here, but what exactly did you think of the decision in Shizune's route? It seems like it was essentially the same thing, where there are no choices until the very end and that one factor is what decides the outcome of the story. The biggest differences I can see are that it was quite clear which choice was the bad one and that the decision itself was weaved into the story in a better fashion (though that could be debatable).

Among the routes of KS I liked Shizune's least of all for various reasons, but that choice is not one of them. It is only one choice, but it is obvious what the immediate outcome of that choice is (if you are aware of the connotations of the word "comfort") and from that you can guess the ultimate outcome.
In contrast the route that I think is the best regarding writing and story - Rin's - is imo the worst regarding choices with half a dozen choices that don't even affect the ending at all but change just a few unimportant lines of dialogue and one choice that can lead to a bad end that is semantically almost identical to the other choices.
Another route that makes good use of choices is Emi's. There is an obvious red thread of asking for advice, and even if you both up one of the choices you get a chance to fix that mistake later on - just like in real life it is rare that one awkwardly worded sentence will mess up your life forever.
However I don't need choices even in VNs. I've also enjoyed kinetic novels like True Remembrance that don't have any choices at all.

scratchminus wrote:Just to point out, I kind of tried to emphasize that the biker was around a corner and couldn't see the entire event unfolding, leading to him not expecting Hisao to be there after quickly coming around a corner. I know that probably leads into an entire discussion about whether or not he would really be going fast enough to cause significant damage, but that's kind of territory that I want to steer clear of (mainly because I don't really know how much it hurts to get hit by a bike).

The vast majority of the mass in a bike/rider combo is in the rider, so it's them coming over the bars that's going to do the most damage. Stopping the bike is easy. Stopping the large mass on top, not so much. So it ends up a bit like being tackled: it hurts on BOTH sides, but it probably hurts the rider slightly less than just going over the bars and hitting the ground, if they land on a person rather than the street. Hisao is of course vulnerable to impact damage that other people would survive, depending on the timing within his heartbeat cycle. He could shake it off like anyone else through probably three quarters of the cycle, but it could have consequences up to and including another heart attack during the other quarter. These proportions may be off, but since you're deciding what happens and not playing an RPG, it's not really necessary to nail them down.

Now if it's a motorcycle (which it could be, I didn't actually read it ), the mass of a runaway or sliding motorcycle is more than enough to ruin your day.

Mirage_GSM wrote:Among the routes of KS I liked Shizune's least of all for various reasons, but that choice is not one of them.

Interesting, you and I seem to share the same feelings for the KS routes (just didn't feel like quoting the entire post, though). Alright, thank you for sharing, I just wanted to know your opinion on that!

NekoDude wrote:The vast majority of the mass in a bike/rider combo is in the rider, so it's them coming over the bars that's going to do the most damage. Stopping the bike is easy. Stopping the large mass on top, not so much.

Wow, I wasn't really expecting any sort of explanation when I said that, but thanks for sharing one! And that actually makes a lot of logical sense, meaning that I should have been able to figure it out on my own. XD Either way, that's good to know for future reference when I may or may not be running into people with bikes! :DD

*Accidently walks into bad ending without realizing it, hears car, remembers title of fanfic*

Motherfu----



But i honestly really enjoyed the fic, i even played the ks jukebox and matched the scene for some extra feely emotional stuff

That was fantastic!

I loved how you handled the relationship (even if Emi did seem to overreact a few times). It was nice, energetic, playful, and cute. The best parts of the story are when you're just focusing on the two of them being a couple.

Iwanako though, she seemed to come out of nowhere, which I suppose isn't bad, but then she KEEPS coming out of nowhere, and really, her character falls extremely flat. She never quite feels like a real person to me.

The conversation Hisao has with himself also really threw me. There hadn't been anything like it in the story before and it didn't fit the tone at all.

Then there's the endings. You dropped the ball there.

You're given two choices. One choice, is the choice where Hisao has learned his lesson, knows to give Emi her space, and is pretty much what the game and story leads you to believe should be the right one.

And that choice leads to ACTION HERO HISAO bravely saving somebody's life from a car that comes out of nowhere and then dying. ... Not only do you go against the characterization and themes that have been set up, it doesn't fit the tone of the story at all, nor do the consequences seem to have anything to do with what choice the reader makes.

The good ending, just feels like a retread of the games actual ending.

Also, I can't support the idea that Emi has pink hair. The game makes a point of repeatedly pointing out Misha's pink hair and how much it sticks out while Emi's hair color is just seen as normal. Now if I'm doing some art of her, I might use pink highlights, but it's clearly not supposed to be pink.