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There's also signs that Hanako wants Hisao to see her as a sexual person, while in Lilly's route...

I have to agree with Atario on this recent post, and especially this:

Atario wrote:

Eurobeatjester wrote:A huge part of her (and Lily's) route involves her getting the courage to both find and express herself. None of the other girls have this problem.

100% disagreed. They all have this problem. Hanako's case is just the most obvious.

Indeed, although I think Rin's case might be even more obvious, if only because she comes right out and says so. Shizune's case is a little less so, but even there a lot of her Act 4 is her attempting to come to terms with this as well. Large chunks of Developments are dedicated to Emi's (and to a lesser degree Lilly's) wrangling with this exact issue.

Oscar Wildecat wrote:This dev blog post mentions that the devs were at one point looking for a picture of a "Nice Boat" (i.e. a yacht). I'm hoping that they were planning on using it for a (ultimately unused) part of Shizune's route, and not a "Nice Boat" Ending. Anyway, it would make sense for the Hakamichi's to own a yacht -- a must for deep sea fishing, ya' know.

Also, related: given that my headcanon is that Rin is a polyglot -- one of the "languages" she knows is semaphore -- she uses her shirt sleeves as flags.

Given what vague hints the devs have given about the early development process, I'd give it 50/50 odds it really was intended for a proper "Nice Boat" ending.

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

I strongly agree with with Eurobeatjester, but I must confess I haven't revisited Hanako's route recently enough to make a convincing point-by-point counterargument to Atario's.

But I have to respond to this:

Atario wrote:Seems like reveling and a little flaunting to me.

Leaning forward to give someone you love a kiss, even in public, is not reveling in and flaunting your sexuality.

Valjean Lafitte wrote:Leaning forward to give someone you love a kiss, even in public, is not reveling in and flaunting your sexuality.

I agree with you there! However, I'd like to point out that this is a big thing in Japan, where public displays of affection are rare and generally frowned upon.

More interestingly, if you look at Hanako's good ending's big splash screen where she's kissing Hisao, the girls are all happy for her.
It seems likely that a number of them (at least) have positive feelings towards her and want her to be happy.
The guy on the far right has a typical Japanese WTH look on his face, but I bet that shortly after, he too begins to smile.

brythain wrote:

Valjean Lafitte wrote:Leaning forward to give someone you love a kiss, even in public, is not reveling in and flaunting your sexuality.

I agree with you there! However, I'd like to point out that this is a big thing in Japan, where public displays of affection are rare and generally frowned upon.

Good point. I suppose it signifies a huge step in Hanako's development, as previously she would have been far too self-conscious to kiss Hisao, much less in public.

More interestingly, if you look at Hanako's good ending's big splash screen where she's kissing Hisao, the girls are all happy for her.
It seems likely that a number of them (at least) have positive feelings towards her and want her to be happy.
The guy on the far right has a typical Japanese WTH look on his face, but I bet that shortly after, he too begins to smile.

What a nice thought! I hadn't paid much attention before to the expression of the guy on the right (muffins....) but is that Molly walking beside him?

Valjean Lafitte wrote:is that Molly walking beside him?

Yup. You can tell she totally 'ships 'em!

This of course happens after the scene and after the confession of love for and from Hisao, so it wouldn't be out of place.

What I meant regarding it is that Hanako's sex scene quite literally comes out of nowhere. Hisao mentions to himself a few times that he has feelings for Hanako, and that she looks good in her pajamas, but I don't remember there ever being a sexual element to it. If you look at all the other girls, there's either mutual flirting or some sort of sexual tension buildup (I don't know if I would call Rin "flirtatious" but there's the whole atelier/cold medicine scene) so you're expecting it. I can't recall again without a complete playthrough of her route if he ever says anything sexual about her until he locks the door and after she shows him her scars in her room. It's a stark contrast to the Hisao earlier who could have easily confessed something or even kissed her when she was drunk earlier in the route.

It's also the only route in which Hisao makes the first move, and it's one hell of a first move. I mean, in one moment he's all "No! She is drunk! I mustn't take advantage of her." And later on its "She's shaking because she just bared her soul to me. She wants me."

I didn't get one ounce of sexual vibe in that scene from Hanako. Maybe others did. I simply saw it as her taking the (very big to her) step of reciprocating when he showed her his scar earlier.

But then we're starting to get into the wonderful debate on if that scene was truly consensual or not and I'm not touching that with a 10 foot pole.

Sex aside, I think Hisao has a very unique role to fill for Hanako in either route where she's heavily involved.

Would Hanako have gravitated towards Lilly if she wasn't blind? Perhaps, since Lilly is a very kind and nurturing person, but Lilly can't be the only caring and compassionate person at the school that would have run into Hanako. Just look at how the other girls treat Hisao when he first transfers in, and the way he notices the students all interacting with each other in a helpful manner. I think Hanako was so hard wired to the idea that people who saw her thought she was hideous that she shut everyone else out (Hence Miki) and that Lilly was the first person Hanako allowed herself to let her guard down around and form a friendship, even if it's a bit of a flawed one (more of an issue in her own route than in Lilly's)

So Hanako learns that she can have a friendship with people, but I believe she has some sort of mental block where she believes unconsciously that the only reason Lilly is friends with her is because she doesn't know what she looks like. If the other students had been put off by her and given up on her before this happened, then from her perspective Hisao is really the first person after this point who is trying to befriend her (or more) not bothered by her burns. This gives Hanako courage to start branching out with other people. You don't really see this branching out in her own route, but in Lilly's she starts making friends with the girls in the newspaper club and even makes plans to travel over the holidays.

That's also the main reason why I think Hanako ends up better off in Lilly's route than she does in her own. Sure, after the end of her route she may have started to branch out in the same way since kissing Hisao in public is a pretty bold move, but we can only speculate on that as opposed to actually seeing it like we do in Lilly's.

Eurobeatjester wrote:What I meant regarding it is that Hanako's sex scene quite literally comes out of nowhere. Hisao mentions to himself a few times that he has feelings for Hanako, and that she looks good in her pajamas, but I don't remember there ever being a sexual element to it.

What would you require? "Gee I'd really like to plow that"? Being romantically interested in someone pretty well implies the sexuality part.

If you look at all the other girls, there's either mutual flirting or some sort of sexual tension buildup

Hanako would be way out of character to start flirting and making passes at him and whatnot (again, without some huge mental breakthrough). We did get a peek at her true feelings during the drunk scene you mentioned (suddenly embracing/nuzzling him; "I don't want you to go"), and during the Hisao's-scar scene, and the leadup to it (with the superclose eye-to-eye gazing). But that's about the best you can hope for from a girl like her. A person is certainly capable of being sexual without ever being able to express it towards any targets of such feelings. Trust me when I tell you this, for I know firsthand of which I speak, and it ain't pretty.

I can't recall again without a complete playthrough of her route if he ever says anything sexual about her until he locks the door and after she shows him her scars in her room. It's a stark contrast to the Hisao earlier who could have easily confessed something or even kissed her when she was drunk earlier in the route.

But that's the whole point. Hisao was not allowing himself to consider her that way till she forced him to with that little stunt. (So even though it was wrongheaded, it worked.)

It's also the only route in which Hisao makes the first move

I don't know how you can say she didn't make the first move. If a girl drags you back to her room and gets naked before your very eyes, would you not consider her to be making a move? Come on.

I didn't get one ounce of sexual vibe in that scene from Hanako.

I'm having trouble interpreting what you mean by this. That she had no sexual interest? No sexual feeling? No sexual desire? I think each of those is wrong.

I simply saw it as her taking the (very big to her) step of reciprocating when he showed her his scar earlier.

See, this is exactly what I meant by shortchanging her. You really think she's that amazingly dumb? "I'm gonna get naked and nothing will happen, I'm only showing a scar, herp derp, then I'll just get dressed again and we'll say good-night?" Come on. She's socially avoidant, not a child raised by wolves. Someone who's read as much as Hanako has knows how these scenes play out.

But then we're starting to get into the wonderful debate on if that scene was truly consensual or not and I'm not touching that with a 10 foot pole.

Sounds like an excellent call.

Hisao has a very unique role to fill for Hanako in either route where she's heavily involved.

Now we're getting into an area of agreement!

Would Hanako have gravitated towards Lilly if she wasn't blind? Perhaps, since Lilly is a very kind and nurturing person, but Lilly can't be the only caring and compassionate person at the school that would have run into Hanako.

True; but all the same, Lilly is like super-nurturer over here. She sits and allows Hanako to just sit silently nearby in Lilly's room without saying a word, while she talks — and this happens many times before Hanako speaks to her. Not many people would have that kind of patience and not get weirded out by that behavior. Plus, next-door neighbors; opportunity and all. I think Lilly was a necessary first several rungs on the stepladder for Hanako, and Hisao is the higher rungs.

I think Hanako was so hard wired to the idea that people who saw her thought she was hideous that she shut everyone else out (Hence Miki)

Heh, maybe, but Miki's very bold and unfiltered manner would probably scare Hanako off by itself. I imagine something like this:

Scene: Classroom, end of day. Everyone's packing up to go.
Hanako: [stays unobtrusive waiting for the room to clear out a little]
Miki: [jauntily approaches Hanako] Hey, uh, Hanako, is it?
Hanako: [drops book, looks at her like a deer in headlights]
Miki: Uh… yeah. Anyway, a bunch of us are going to into town to see a movie or something. Wanna come?
Hanako: [imagines crowds, hordes of strangers in line for tickets on all sides, the stares and whipsers] I… I…
Miki: I?
Hanako: I'VEGOTTOGODOSOMETHING! [dashes out in a flurry of dropped pencils and whatnot, leaving all her stuff behind]
Miki: [stares after her incredulously, takes a beat, shakes head] What a damned weirdo! [walks back to friends] I tried! You saw I tried, right? Never mind, let's go…

Or, being less charitable about it:

Miki: [jauntily approaches Hanako] Hey, uh, Hanako, is it? [does double-take] WHOA! What the hell happened to your face? Er, I mean…
Hanako: [cries, runs away]
Miki: Hoo boy. That coulda gone better.

So Hanako learns that she can have a friendship with people, but I believe she has some sort of mental block where she believes unconsciously that the only reason Lilly is friends with her is because she doesn't know what she looks like.

I don't think it's that specific. She just knows (has learned) not to trust people at all till she knows she can — till they've proved it to her. Lilly managed to accomplish this on her own (and the blindness thing no doubt helped facilitate that, sure), and Hisao managed it between his own good handling of the situation and Lilly's catalysis.

Hisao is really the first person after this point who is trying to befriend her (or more) not bothered by her burns. This gives Hanako courage to start branching out with other people.

Agreed. She's been in a lonely prison of her own making; Lilly opened the door, and Hisao coaxed her out.

That's also the main reason why I think Hanako ends up better off in Lilly's route than she does in her own. Sure, after the end of her route she may have started to branch out in the same way since kissing Hisao in public is a pretty bold move, but we can only speculate on that as opposed to actually seeing it like we do in Lilly's.

True. It would have been nice to see it there too, and I believe it would have happened faster as well. (Headcanon!) At the same time, the devs thought that was all the story they wanted to tell; the happy times after the Big Breakdown were superfluous from a storytelling point of view. Too bad… but that leaves more for us fanfic freaks!

You see that scene as her placing moves on Hisao, and everything after that follows suit with that theory. Which is perfectly fine, I'm not trying to say you're wrong.

I just don't see it as such, at all. Not trying to shortchange her or see her as naive. I think it just as likely that she let her guard down around Hisao enough because she trusted him enough that he wouldn't place moves on her in that position, and in my eyes, the way the scene itself plays out and the conversation that happens afterwards seems to solidify that in my mind. We'll never know because the scene wasn't written from Hanako's POV. I don't think she's so naive that the possibility in her head didn't pop up, but I don't think she premeditated the idea of luring Hisao into her room in an attempt at seduction.

You're using personal experiences to interpret what happened with Hanako, and so am I. My experiences aren't any less or more "right" or pronounced than yours are. They're just different

I think it's a credit to her writer that we can look at the same scenes and draw two entirely different conclusions from them. It's a hallmark of a complex, well written character!

My headcanon is that Taro wears Jayne's hat during the winter months.

Nobody dares say anything about it. They know that if a man walks dwn the street wearing a hat like that, he ain't afraid of anything.

Eurobeatjester wrote:I think it just as likely that she let her guard down around Hisao enough because she trusted him enough that he wouldn't place moves on her in that position

But why would she do that? Where's the motivation?

Atario wrote:

Eurobeatjester wrote:I think it just as likely that she let her guard down around Hisao enough because she trusted him enough that he wouldn't place moves on her in that position

But why would she do that? Where's the motivation?

I replayed that chapter and the two after it last night, so this is how I interpret it.

Before they get to the room, the two of them are talking about and sharing their past. Hisao asks Hanako about her life before Yamaku and she agrees to tell him but only if he tells her as well.

Hanako hesitates there, and again before they actually go into her room. I believe in these moments she decides to open herself up to him the way he did to her, by showing him her scars. Hence her nervousness.

So to answer your question, that's the motivation. She wants to open up to Hisao the same way he did earlier in the act. That's it. Nothing sexual to it.

When they get into the room, Hisao jumps to the conclusion that Hanako may be trying to seduce him...but one of the key things in the story at this point is how wrong his assumptions of Hanako are.

Hanako is terrified when she tells the story of what happened, and you can read she's about to break from the stress of telling it and from baring herself.

After replaying the scene again, I just can't see Hanako choosing to use that method - reliving the most painful experience of her life - as a means to the end of trying to seduce Hisao.

Another thing here that makes me think this way is that Painful History plays through the entire scene. Unlike the artistic decisions made about pubic hair, I think that was very deliberate.


So after she bares herself literally and figuratively, Hisao kisses her and she's shocked, and then things progress when she nods and moves to the bed. This is the moment I believe she chooses to sleep with him. I don't know if she did it because she wanted to, she did it because she wanted him to see her in a different way, or because she thought it was expected of the two of them in that situation. I lean towards the second because of the conversation in the next two scenes.

Even Hisao can't wrap his head around it and wonders if she just went along with it because she's so submissive.

In the park, Hanako says she thought that if she did that, then Hisao wouldn't see her just as some useless person. I think we both agree that she is referring about sleeping with him, but where we differ is when she made that decision.

You think she made it before they got to the room and that's why she brought him there. I think she made the decision after Hisao kissed her.

Once again. that's my interpretation of it.

Eurobeatjester wrote:You think she made it before they got to the room and that's why she brought him there. I think she made the decision after Hisao kissed her.

There's a middle ground to these, though, which I tend to favor. She didn't necessarily expect it to happen, but she was prepared for it to happen. Essentially, she went in willing to roll with whatever happened, although it was never her intention to initiate it so it wasn't seduction per se. For me, the key to this was when she talks about being jealous of how close Yuuko was getting to Hisao, which was tied to her wanting to show him she wasn't a useless person. Yes, subsequent events show that she wasn't as ready as she thought she was, but that's neither here nor there.